MTH Z4000

hudsonbuck posted:

My friend just received the Sunset Model 3rd rail S4 Erie Berkshires 3 rail.  He told me the instructions said you couldn't run the engine with the MTH Z-4000.  He said it would ruin the electronics in the engine. Does anyone know if that is true? He said you need to use the Lionel ZW-4000. Please somebody let me know if that is true, thanks. hudsonbuck 

Please have your friend quote EXACTLY where it states THAT in the instructions. I have about 18 or 19 Sunset/3rd Rail brass steam locomotives, and our layout uses two MTH Z4000 transformers for the main lines and two Lionel 180 Bricks for the locomotive terminal and yard. The whole layout id DCS, Legacy, and TMCC and we have NEVER had any problems operating Sunset/3rd Rail products, nor Lionel, nor Atlas, nor MTH in any of the three different command modes, all at the same time. I try to maintain about 18 to 19 volts constant on all tracks during operations.

Although we have not operated anything in conventional mode,  the Sunset/3rd Rail products operate just as well in conventional.

HUDSONBUCK,

  This is a new one on me, doubt that it is true.

PCRR/Dave

Has your friend contacted Sunset/3rd Rail tech support??  They're usually very responsive and I would expect them to have the correct answer and logic behind it.

I Emailed scott Mann at Sunset Models he still hasn't gotten back to me. When he does I will let you all know what he says. Thank guys for the response I too have a couple of Sunset model engines and never had no problems running them with the MTH Z4000!

In regards to  using the MTH Z4000 on the new Sunset Model Erie S-4 Berkshire. This is Scott Mann's reply.  (Our instructions say that you cannot use the MTH z1000 or z750. We use the MT hd4000 both at the factory and at the office for testing our models just be careful don't have the track voltage / 20 volts or more. If you have anymore questions feel free to email me. Scott Mann.) My engine will be delivered tomorrow, i will let you all know if  I have any problems! hudsonbuck

In case some of you didn't quite understand: 

We use the MT hd4000 both at the factory and at the office for testing our models just be careful don't have the track voltage / 20 volts or more.

Scott meant to say " MTH Z4000"

HUDSONBUCK,

   You are misunderstanding, he is saying the little Transformers are not powerful enough to run that particular engine, no that the Z4K is the only Transformer you can use to run the Train.  

PCRR/Dave

This seems wrong.  First, what system is in the train?  That drives the selection of transformer some what.  I find it hard to believe the Z-1000 and 100W is too small for one loco?

If this is TMCC based control, then the limit of 18 to 20VAC is correct.  That is Lionel's guidance based on board design. 

If a Lionel CW-80 would work, I can't see why a Z-1000 would not.  Just can't scroll up to high voltage.  G

GGG,

    I still do believe he has misunderstood what was being told to him, or someone is giving him bad information.

PCRR/Dave

Interesting.  I agree with PCR that he got the wrong info or misunderstood the issue concerning the Z-4000.  However, I have read that the Z-500 and Z-750 should be avoided due to their not working well with some electronics (same can be said for the CW-80).  I have never read this for the Z-1000 or Z-4000.  I never use more than 18 volts because of the TMCC products in many of my engines.

Fwiw...i use a single z1000 to power all my motive as seen in this video with no issues. The mu's pull 26 to 42 cars each so the are working the z1000 close to max. Z1000 gets slightly warm after about an hours run time but never hot. I did inadvertently hit all engine and smoke on while throttling....circuit breaker said enuff of this and tripped

I got my engine today put it on the track at 18 volts with the MTH Z4000 Ran it for about 5 minutes. No Problems to report. Here is that brochure that came with the engine. It says not to use the MTH Z750 & Z1000. They are cut wave transformers and will damage the electronics in your model.

New one on me, I guess I would like to hear a technical explanation of how it damages the TMCC and or ERR cruise board.  Plenty of TMCC engines running CW-80 and MTH Z-750/1000s.  G

LHS i tested many Atlas and 3R w/ TMCC using a z750 with no issues..hmmm...i wonder what qualifies the 3R statement.

I have and use both an MTH Z4000 and a Lionel ZWL. I started out with only the MTH. When I ran into problems with a Legacy Berk tender coupler opening without any command (and causing some nasty wrecks), Lionel suggested I try using the ZWL because of the chopped sine wave issue possibly effecting the coupler. So I bit the bullet and bought one. The ZWL made no difference. So I super-glued the coupler shut.

TAKE THAT, YOU STUPID COUPLER!!!!

I believe that the warning is because the Z4000 is capable of a 22 volt output and that is where the concern lies.

Barry,

    The directions are not saying not to use the Z4K, they Are saying not to use the Cut Wave Z-750 & Z-1000, the 22 Volt max would not apply to these smaller Transformers.  Got to admit this is something I have never seen before.    I am with GGG on this one, I would like to see some of the technical engineering on this one.

PCRR/Dave

padreyak,

Just to set the record straight, the MTH Z-4000 has Pure Sine Wave form like the Lionel Post War ZW.

The MTH bricks  (Z-500, Z-750, Z-1000) running through the controller and Lionel ZWL transformers put out chopped Sine Wave form.

MTH and Lionel bricks alone, put out Pure Sine Wave form.

Thanks, Joe

Curious: For those of you who know more than I do (ok, that's all of you) I have a remanufactured ZW that has "Made in the USA of America" on the label. It works great. Just has an odd label.

Is the issue with the brick or the controller? It is my understanding the brick is sine wave and the controller chops it to control voltage. It is certainly not uncommon to run trains from a brick into a TIU fixed or variable and then to the track. The TMCC is hooked up via a common ground to the track.