MTH Z4000 Wiring Question

Joe, I'd guess you have a wiring issue. Which switch machines and how are they connected? 

Joe,

   IMO it should work, you may have something cross wired on your layout.  

However this is the 2nd time now I have heard of this problem with the Ross Switches, I am beginning to wonder if this problem is in the Ross Switch design.  Do you have any other Manufacturers switches to substitute and do a test, to see if they will function correctly or not with your wiring.

PCRR/Dave

Dave:

Yea - I have Atlas O also. However non-derail for them involves some costly PC boards and a different circuit set up so I don't bother with them. I have not as yet wired any of the Atlas O turnouts but will do so this W/E and see if at least the switch motors work.

Bobby:

That is what I keep thinking. Both Ross and Atlas O switch motors have L/R going to a DPDT toggle switch. The toggle switch center is connected to ground. The center post of the switch machines are connected to 14VAC tap on Z4000. I will post a wiring schematic once I get it made up.

I doubt it is the switches since you have no short when they are powered up.

Are you using the Z-Stuff machines? If so which ones?

Bobby:

DZ-1000

Talked to gunrunnerjohn.
There is no issue shorting grounds on Z4000 so I have a wiring issue I need to figure out.

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

Joe,

   IMO it should work, you may have something cross wired on your layout.  

However this is the 2nd time now I have heard of this problem with the Ross Switches, I am beginning to wonder if this problem is in the Ross Switch design.  Do you have any other Manufacturers switches to substitute and do a test, to see if they will function correctly or not with your wiring.

PCRR/Dave

Yes, I have some wired for non-derailing and a couple of my caboose short out when crossing the turnout.  Never found out what is causing it, so those three caboose are banned from that section of the trackage. Sucks, but there does not appear to be a fix/work around.  If I disconnect the non-derailing circuit, no shorting.

Another weird querk on the CL&W Ry ....

I have three power districts powered by two Lionel 180 watt power bricks and one tap (track 2) of the Z4000. Each power source is connected to a Legacy Powermaster then to a common ground under the table. The Turnout machines are powered by the 14VAC tap on the Z4000 with a separate ground.

As long as I keep the ground for the turnouts separate from the power district ground the track voltage and turnout machines along with Z-Stuff dwarf lights connected through 1008 relays to the turnout machines work just fine. Only the non-derail does not work since it needs a common ground between the switch machines and track ground.

Just to be sure about the Z4000 I disconnected the 14VAC wires, then shorted ground between the 14VAV tap and track 2 directly on the transformer (ie before the powermasters). The Z4000 acted just fine. As soon as I ran a wire from the 14VAC ground tap on the transformer under the table and connected to ground after the powermasters, track 2 of the Z4000 goes to 12 amps at about 1.2 VAC.

As I said earlier I did have the non-derail working on my previous layout. The only change I made was to switch a new legacy powermaster for an TPC400 that was previously connected to the Z4000.

Kerrigan posted:

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

Joe,

   IMO it should work, you may have something cross wired on your layout.  

However this is the 2nd time now I have heard of this problem with the Ross Switches, I am beginning to wonder if this problem is in the Ross Switch design.  Do you have any other Manufacturers switches to substitute and do a test, to see if they will function correctly or not with your wiring.

PCRR/Dave

Yes, I have some wired for non-derailing and a couple of my caboose short out when crossing the turnout.  Never found out what is causing it, so those three caboose are banned from that section of the trackage. Sucks, but there does not appear to be a fix/work around.  If I disconnect the non-derailing circuit, no shorting.

Another weird querk on the CL&W Ry ....

Post an image. If only a few cars short seems something else is occurring.

Model Structures posted:

I have three power districts powered by two Lionel 180 watt power bricks and one tap (track 2) of the Z4000. Each power source is connected to a Legacy Powermaster then to a common ground under the table. The Turnout machines are powered by the 14VAC tap on the Z4000 with a separate ground.

As long as I keep the ground for the turnouts separate from the power district ground the track voltage and turnout machines along with Z-Stuff dwarf lights connected through 1008 relays to the turnout machines work just fine. Only the non-derail does not work since it needs a common ground between the switch machines and track ground.

Just to be sure about the Z4000 I disconnected the 14VAC wires, then shorted ground between the 14VAV tap and track 2 directly on the transformer (ie before the powermasters). The Z4000 acted just fine. As soon as I ran a wire from the 14VAC ground tap on the transformer under the table and connected to ground after the powermasters, track 2 of the Z4000 goes to 12 amps at about 1.2 VAC.

As I said earlier I did have the non-derail working on my previous layout. The only change I made was to switch a new legacy powermaster for an TPC400 that was previously connected to the Z4000.

Wiring diagram Joe?

The GN Man posted:

This is somewhat of a guess, but have you checked that the 14VAC output and the Track 2 output of your Z4000 are in phase?

Would out of phase cause a short?

Yes, connecting two AC sources out of phase is a short by definition. I don’t know if that is your problem, but it sure acts like it....

I really suspect your wiring.  No reason why Ross switches with DZ1000 should differ from my Gargraves with DZ1000.  I use the 14-volt output with no issues.  Hot wire from the terminal feeds centers of switch motors.  U terminal feeds center contacts of controllers.  Wires from insulated outer rails segments connected to outside terminals on switch motors.  2-conductor cables connect controllers and motors.  AIUs also interconnected

The consensus from gunnrunnerjohn seems to be one of the three transformers - either the Z4000 or one of the bricks is out of phase as you all mentioned above. I will check.

I did try this today. I disconnected the Z4000 from the powermaster it was connected to and ran the track 1 ground straight to the terminal under the table where the other ground wires are connected. I then connected the Z4000 14V ground to the same terminal. EVERYTHING worked (ie non-derail).

So:

Standard connection - Z4000 to powermaster to common ground / 180W power brick to powermaster to common ground / 2nd 180W power brick to powermaster to common ground.
Connect Z4000 14V to common ground and the Z4000 goes nuts.
Take the powermaster connected to the Z4000 out of the loop and everything works great.

Possible issues?
1. out of phase transformer (I will check the two bricks and the Z4000 however with the powermaster connected to the Z4000 out of the loop and the two bricks/powermasters turned on I get 18V at all terminals [districts 1-3] under the table).
2. bum powermaster (it works just fine w/o the 14V connected. I also hooked the Z4000 to the other two powermasters and the same issue occurred so I doubt it)
3. the Z4000 is not compatible with a Lionel powermaster ??????????? I turned the two bricks off, connected the Z4000 to its powermaster and connected the Z4000 14V . With the Z4000/powermaster and Z4000 14V tap sharing the same ground I have the issue. So with the other two transformers out of the loop I still have the issue.

Guys - I really appreciate you jumping in with all your comments. They are helping me.

Thanks

Joe

Z4000 and PH-180 are fully compatible, when properly phased, which is simple. If out of phase, reverse output leads fromPH180.  I have both running

Joe,

Without knowing how your layout is wired to see if you have a wiring short, checking for out of phase is easy. With every transformer at say 18 volts there should be no voltage potential between the hot sides right? At least that is how we've done ours. Separately powered loops are interconnected via turnouts and we just measure across the insulated pins. RJR is correct, Z4000 has no shorting issues running any Lionel products that I'm aware of.

Bobby / RJR:

I checked the phase of the bricks to the Z4000 and everything checked out ok (used light bulb technique).

I am going back through my ground routing tonight. I am also going to disconnect the Z4000 from track power and just use the 14V output for the switch motors (see below). For now I will connect one of the bricks to the track district I am currently wiring.

I went further and disconnected all wires from the Z4000 and ran the light bulb test on it. I turned on track 2 to 17V and connected the bulb to the tap and also to the 14V and the 10V. Plus to minus on each tap the bulb turned on as it should. Plus to any minus the bulb turned on. Here's the kicker plus to plus the bulb turned on? Same issue turning on track 1. I am now thinking a problem with my Z4000.....

Joe

Model Structures posted:

Bobby / RJR:

I checked the phase of the bricks to the Z4000 and everything checked out ok (used light bulb technique).

I am going back through my ground routing tonight. I am also going to disconnect the Z4000 from track power and just use the 14V output for the switch motors (see below). For now I will connect one of the bricks to the track district I am currently wiring.

I went further and disconnected all wires from the Z4000 and ran the light bulb test on it. I turned on track 2 to 17V and connected the bulb to the tap and also to the 14V and the 10V. Plus to minus on each tap the bulb turned on as it should. Plus to any minus the bulb turned on. Here's the kicker plus to plus the bulb turned on? Same issue turning on track 1. I am now thinking a problem with my Z4000.....

Joe

Now you need to run the test between the Z4000 throttles and both bricks correct? And then try to discover if it is the Z or the bricks which were made out of phase with the "world"?

IIRC with the throttle at 17V connecting the bulb to the 10V output may light it as that is 6 volts. Isn't that what Lionel showed with those little diagrams on their multi post postwar transformers?

Did we ask if these are all powered from the same power strip and not different outlets as I think that would place them out of phase if they are connected to different legs in your breaker box. Seem to recall reading that here.

Looking forward to your work tonight.

If there is a difference in voltage between "+" on a handle and "+" [to use your phrases--not correct on AC circuits], the bulb will light.  Not a Z4000 problem.

You have to be sure that Z4000 handle posts feed center rail; Z4000 U posts (which are connected internally) feed ground (including outside switch motor connectors through controller or insulated rail section), 14 or 10-volt posts feed the center of the switch motors and nothing else.

No wires should go to the insulated section except a wire running to an outside switch motor terminal.  There should be no wires in the switch connected to that section.

Bobby:

Now you need to run the test between the Z4000 throttles and both bricks correct? And then try to discover if it is the Z or the bricks which were made out of phase with the "world"?

Done - all three in phase

Did we ask if these are all powered from the same power strip and not different outlets as I think that would place them out of phase if they are connected to different legs in your breaker box. Seem to recall reading that here.

All powered from same power strip.

RJR

If there is a difference in voltage between "+" on a handle and "+" [to use your phrases--not correct on AC circuits], the bulb will light.  Not a Z4000 problem.

Good to know

You have to be sure that Z4000 handle posts feed center rail;

Done - funny thing. If I take the powermaster out of the circuit and drive the track straight from the Z4000 everything works but as soon as I add the powermaster (also tried with the other two powermasters) back in the Z4000 acts up.

Z4000 U posts (which are connected internally) feed ground (including outside switch motor connectors through controller or insulated rail section), 14 or 10-volt posts feed the center of the switch motors and nothing else.

Not sure about what you are saying - would you please explain more - thx

I traced my ground wires last night - not sure if there is an issue or not so made a bunch of diagrams (see below)

This is basically what I have for common - does the dashed get me into trouble?

I know I can use the 'star' pattern but again does the dashed line get me into trouble?

This is both power and common also showing the placement of the powermasters. I deleted the questionable (dashed) connections. Any issues?

Tonight I am going to hook up the remaining non-derail wires and see what happens. I will also trace the circuit.

Thanks

Joe

PS - I sought of declared victory last night and bought another Lionel 180W brick to replace the Z4000. I will keep the Z4000 for the 14 and 10 V accessories.

Sorry, I can't follow the diagrams.

RJR posted:

Sorry, I can't follow the diagrams.

I will double check the ground circuit tonight and make sure I don't have any unwanted 'feedback'

With the Z4000 out of the track power circuit and just used for 14V everything is now working including non-derail. When I get the new Lionel 180W power brick I will connect it to the third Lionel powermaster and see what happens.

Joe

Spent another 5 hours playing around with the Z4000. I disconnected all track wires. I disconnected all the power supplies then double checked the the power / common wiring to all terminal broads under the table. I reconnected the power supplies and checked voltages at each terminal with the track wires still disconnected. Since the power supplies share a common ground if I had an out phase Z4000 I assume I would see a much higher voltage between a terminal board for the Z4000 and one for the 180W power bricks plus a voltage between the power ('A' or pos) between the Z4000 and a power brick. All was well. Just to double check I turned the power plug for the Z4000 around in the power strip (I have a plug adapter that allows me to do this) and sure enough there was voltage between the 'A' terminals of the Z4000 and the power bricks.

So bottom line I know my wiring is good, I am pretty certain the Z4000 is in phase with the power bricks. If I short grounds ('U') terminals on the Z4000 for the track 1 voltage and 14VAC before the Legacy Powermaster I have no issues, if I connect the grounds after the powermaster I have issues. If I connect one or the other I have no issues. So I am declaring victory and moving on. I have a power brick on order. I will use this to power the third track district and use the Z4000 for turnouts (common ground with power bricks) and accessories only. I have tried this already and it works.

Still having fun

Joe

I owe everyone a huge apology. I must have been testing phase the wrong way. I reviewed Lionel's YouTube video on testing phase and duplicated the light technique. Sure enough the Z4000 is out of phase with the two Lionel power bricks. The light was turning on when connecting red terminal to red terminal from the Z4000 to all three powermasters but not when connecting red to black.

I have a three prong into two prong adapter so used it to turn the Z4000 plug around in the power strip but this did not work for some reason. I tried turning the Lionel power bricks around but then they would not turn on the powermasters.

The one thing Mike ?Reagan's? video otherwise excellent did not touch upon was how to correct two power supplies out of phase with each other.  I have a feeling I would need to have someone go inside the Z4000????

I still have a third Lionel power brick coming in, supposedly tonight so will hook it up to the third powermaster. For some reason the 14V terminal if used by itself will work with the power bricks on a common ground. If it does not I have a small Lionel CW80 I can try.

Joe

When using PH-180s with any transformer, if phasing had to be changed, I would simply switch around the output wires from the PH-180s.  It's quick, easy, cheap, & safe.  If you use cables with molded-on connectors at each end, simply cut the cable, and splice it back together with the wires reversed.  On mine, I have the output wires connected to a terminal block (NOT a TIU-to-track block), so it was easy to switch the terminals.

Joe,

Please post the serial # of the Z4K. There is an early batch of them that were manufactured out of phase.

I would contact either MTH service directly or find a qualified authorized MTH tech in the area and have them look at it. I remember something about MTH wanting to repair all Z4Ks themselves, as opposed to the authorized techs, but so not know if this is still the case. By the way: DO NOT modify the polarized plug!

Chris

LVHR

Serial # 120 640106

I have submitted a request into MTH