Multiple Inputs for DZ-1008 relay

I couldn't help the notice that you wasn't using the yellow aspect on your layout. With integrated signals you get to use all three aspects on your Layout.

Good luck, John 

NYC,SUBWAY TRANSIT SIGNAL posted:

I couldn't help the notice that you wasn't using the yellow aspect on your layout. With integrated signals you get to use all three aspects on your Layout.

 

Good luck, John 

I should explain.  The signal in use is the PRR 7-light position signal head, not the signal shown in the diagram.  The PRR signal will automatically change (left to right) as shown:

So all 3 aspects are shown.

George

Am I understanding correct that what you want is to have the signal continue to function as it does now when a train is on the insulated section, and then in addition you want it to "turn on" when a switch is thrown in one direction but not the other?  

What type of switch are you using, and does it provide any electrical indication of which way it is thrown, such as an indicator light?  if so you can tap into the power for that light to power a relay which would then operate what you already have in place.  a second relay might be needed.  

More simply put, if you like the dz-1008 unit you already have, you would need a second one, connected exactly the same as the first but instead of connecting to the insulated rail you would connect it to the indicator light on the switch.  

JGL

JohnGaltLine posted:

Am I understanding correct that what you want is to have the signal continue to function as it does now when a train is on the insulated section, and then in addition you want it to "turn on" when a switch is thrown in one direction but not the other?  

What type of switch are you using, and does it provide any electrical indication of which way it is thrown, such as an indicator light?  if so you can tap into the power for that light to power a relay which would then operate what you already have in place.  a second relay might be needed.  

More simply put, if you like the dz-1008 unit you already have, you would need a second one, connected exactly the same as the first but instead of connecting to the insulated rail you would connect it to the indicator light on the switch.  

JGL

 

JGL,

Thank you for your suggestion.  Here's a (hopefully) more informative and clearer description of the problem and the area.  Please refer to the rough drawing below.

As trains travel west across the bridge (northernmost track) to Ohio, they encounter an MTH PRR signal bridge with a 7-light position signal at its western end. Beyond the signal is a straight section of track that enters a tunnel. The straight track section has an insulated rail that triggers a DZ-1008A relay which in turn activates the signal. When the track ahead is occupied, the signal displays the STOP aspect. Otherwise, it shows the CLEAR aspect.

Within the tunnel is Switch No. 3 (yeah, I know that wasn't a good idea). This is where the Hidden Passing Siding joins the Mainline. Again, the only direction of travel possible is counter-clockwise.

Currently, the signal protects the approaching train only against an occupied Mainline track. It does not protect against Switch No. 3 being set against the Mainline. That is something that I want to correct, as a derailment or collision inside the tunnel would spoil everyone’s day. 

Switch No. 3 is a Curtis HiRail O54 right-hand switch operated by a Z-Stuff DZ-2500a switch machine. The switch machine is activated by either TMCC (using the DZ-2001 Data Wire Driver) or the DZ-2502P pushbutton mounted in the fascia. I cannot use the non-derailing feature of the switch machine as it is possible for a train from the Hidden Passing Siding to be occupying the switch when another train approaches via the Mainline. Throwing a switch while a train occupies the points would be bad, very bad.    Adding a provision to cut power to the Mainline straight when the switch is set against it seems like overkill and doesn’t modify the signal aspect. I prefer the engineer of the approaching train to be in control and watching the signal for instruction / clearance.

JGL - I think you have a good angle on the solution and I am going to investigate it.  I know the Z-Stuff DZ-2500a can be used to change the signal aspect for other DZ signals and can mate to a DZ-1008.  I think I will study the Z-Stuff instructions and get back to you.

Thanks!

George

You need to contact. Intergrated Siganls Systems. Tim, could give you wiring schedmatic.

So you would have a worry free operations when your Train is runing through your tunnel.

Good luck. John 

Ok, George,

I took a moment to look over the Z-stuff products as I don't run any of their stuff, and it all looks pretty straight forward to me... but i'm going to throw up the disclaimer that I may be wrong and that someone may want to double check me on this.  

That said, to accomplish what you want to do is pretty easy.  You will need another DZ-1008 connected directly to the switch machine as they show on page 1 of the DZ-1008's instructions (Linked here).  Black, Blue, Grey, and White will connect to the same places they do on the DZ-1008 you already have installed. Red most likely will connect as well, unless you have the switch machines on a different power source from the track signal.   You may need to reverse the grey and white wires if the signal is operating with the switch thrown the opposite direction from what you want.  That's it to produce your desired results.  

That said, I think it's worth it to use the anti-detailing feature.  You will have to do a test to see if you even need to make a modification at all, but if you do you could use one additional relay module to make it so that the switch will not throw if one of the 'legs' is occupied, for whatever length of track past the switch you like.  Let me know if you'd be interested in doing something like this.  

In addition, you don't have to use the z-stuff relay module if you don't want to. If you like the Z-stuff relays, go ahead and use them, If you want some other options, many folks here can help with that as well.  

JGL

NOTE:  The previous diagram I published here was INCORRECT.  If you downloaded it, please discard.

Disclaimer:  I believe this to be correct, but I am asking those viewing to verify it.

Please note:

1. The DZ-1008a connected to the insulated rail is wired RED to the COMMON of the 15 VAC accessory supply.  The BLACK wire is connected to the AC Hot.  This is correct (graciously verified by Dave Hikel).
2. The DZ-1008a connected to the DZ-2500a Switch Machine is wired per the Z-Stuff drawing.

JGL, please take a look.

Thanks,

George

George,

I think almost everything looks right... the only connections that look questionable to me are those attaching the signal.  I think that as things are in your drawing, both parts of the signal will come on if only one of the two relays is triggered. (ex. both the horizontal and vertical lights being on at the same time.)  It depends how the signal works.  The instructions I found for this signal are pretty useless in explaining how to wire the device for anything other than MTH's own signal device, so we may have to figure that out to see if an additional relay is needed.  I did find this old thread that talks about the wiring, and it leads me to believe we will need the extra relay to get the desired result.  I guess at this point, I'd like you to run an experiment for me on the signal.  With black to common what happens with each of the other wires on the hot on a transformer? I think one wire will light the center light only, one will light the horizontal lights, and the third will light the diagonal for 10 seconds then the vertical.  If this is the case, if power is applied to all 3 wires, I think the horizontal and vertical signals will light at once, and if this is the case, we will need a third relay in out circuit to make the signal function correctly.   

JGL

JGL,

I, too, found MTH's instructions for this signal to be virtually worthless.  That's why I inquired about it 8-9 years ago and got that diagram from Dave Hikel.  Those instructions work, allowing an isolated control rail to substitute for the MTH ITAD. 

Now, if I understood you correctly, your question relates to switch machine / DZ-1008a triggering the signal when the switch is thrown against the mainline.  I will test that and see what we get.  Back to you shortly.

Thanks,

George

OK, here's what I found out:

With just the BLACK wire connected to COMMON - nothing (as expected).

With the BLACK wire connected to COMMON and RED connected to AC Hot, we get STOP.

With the BLACK wire connected to COMMON and the GREEN wire connected to AC Hot, we get:

followed 4 seconds later by

George

Ok... now what do you get with black on common, red AND green on hot?  

Do both parts of the signal come on?  If so we need a third relay in the mix to keep that from happening.  

Why not do what the thread title says?  You want multiple inputs...or in this case 2 ways to activate the DZ-1008a.  In your last drawing you're showing multiple outputs...or in this case 2 ways to drive the signal.  It seems you are trying to resolve the situation where the 2 outputs compete...possibly illuminating both the stop and proceed indicators.

The lower DZ-1008a (tied to the switch machine) connects BLUE (relay common) to the WHITE (relay N.O.) when you have the case where you want to additionally activate the vertical/stop signal.  If you instead connect BLUE to BLK (track common) and WHITE to GRN (insulated track section), this provides an additional input to the upper DZ-1008a.  The lower GRAY (relay N.C.) is not required.

JohnGaltLine posted:

Ok... now what do you get with black on common, red AND green on hot?  

Do both parts of the signal come on?  If so we need a third relay in the mix to keep that from happening.  

 

Will have to get back to you on that.  I went to test the above and the cheesy common wire broke off.    Fortunately, the MTH signal bridge has sockets for 4 signal heads.

George

stan2004 posted:

Why not do what the thread title says?  You want multiple inputs...or in this case 2 ways to activate the DZ-1008a.  In your last drawing you're showing multiple outputs...or in this case 2 ways to drive the signal.  It seems you are trying to resolve the situation where the 2 outputs compete...possibly illuminating both the stop and proceed indicators.

The lower DZ-1008a (tied to the switch machine) connects BLUE (relay common) to the WHITE (relay N.O.) when you have the case where you want to additionally activate the vertical/stop signal.  If you instead connect BLUE to BLK (track common) and WHITE to GRN (insulated track section), this provides an additional input to the upper DZ-1008a.  The lower GRAY (relay N.C.) is not required.

Thank you, Stan!  That's an interesting idea you've got there.  I will try to find a way to explore it.  At the moment, the switch machine is installed on the layout while the signal and its relay are not.  I will try to rig some temporary wiring to test this.

George

G3750 posted:

JohnGaltLine posted:

Ok... now what do you get with black on common, red AND green on hot?  

Do both parts of the signal come on?  If so we need a third relay in the mix to keep that from happening.  

 

Will have to get back to you on that.  I went to test the above and the cheesy common wire broke off.    Fortunately, the MTH signal bridge has sockets for 4 signal heads.

George

It seems to me the red and green circuits would now be in parellel so both stop and proceed indications will be on at the same time.

I think Stan is on to something there to eliminate the need for a third relay.  

Cappilot, that was pretty much the point.  I assume both signals will come on, but want to make sure that is the case before coming up with a way to fix the problem.  It seems Stan came through with a better option than the one I was thinking of anyway.  

I tend to think "just add another relay" a lot due to having hundreds of relays laying around, so sometimes something obvious like driving the first relay with the second doesn't occur to me.   

JGL