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Dan Padova posted:
Hot Water posted:

ADRIADIC,

When it comes to manufacturing real diesel freight locomotives, neither "style" nor "aerodynamic efficiency", is a factor. The freight train speeds do not exceed 80MPH in the U.S. and Canada. Those compound curves of the olde "E" and "F" Unit "carbody style" units would be WAY TOO costly to manufacture today, and there really is no need/requirement in todays modern railroading anyway.

I don't get it.  Automobile manufacturers have all sorts of compound curves in their designs.  So where's the stumbling block in doing it for larger vehicles.  

I agree, with whomever said that styling will get the attention of the public.  Isn't that what the auto companies do ?

Maybe I am hoping for a more idealistic world.  In reality, a world like that might do some good.

Building an F or E unit wasn't like building a model of them with their one piece shells:

54079273_EMDFunitconstruction01

A LOT of labor went into building them and the photo only shows "the tip of the iceberg," as it were.

Rusty

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Last edited by Rusty Traque
Rusty Traque posted:  

Building an F or E unit wasn't like building a model of them with their one piece shells:

54079273_EMDFunitconstruction01

A LOT of labor went into building them and the photo only shows "the tip of the iceberg," as it were.

Rusty

That's a really interesting photo; can someone put a date on it?  Presumably at the main EMD LaGrange factory?

I don't see why you couldn't have a little better styling on a modern locomotive. What about the HR616 locos in use in Canada? They are basically the same as most modern US locomotives except the body extends over the side walkways. So you have the cool carbody looks while still having most, if not all of the ease of maintenance of a conventional modern diesel. Plus you have the end walkways for switching duties too.

Now if the cab were a bit more rounded...

handyandy posted:

I don't see why you couldn't have a little better styling on a modern locomotive. What about the HR616 locos in use in Canada? They are basically the same as most modern US locomotives except the body extends over the side walkways. So you have the cool carbody looks while still having most, if not all of the ease of maintenance of a conventional modern diesel. Plus you have the end walkways for switching duties too.

Now if the cab were a bit more rounded...

I've been on hundreds of locomotives for maintenance and inspection duties and I fail to see how an enclosed carbody can contribute to "ease of maintenance". Do I want to walk through a lot of hot smelly noisy enclosed engine rooms with narrow walkways alongside hot engine parts? And it's not a continuous inside passage from the cab to rear end, like it was on some older locos (?) before they had pressurized car-bodies.

"Maintenance" is not just what is done inside a shop at the mandated 90-day intervals; there are various items that may need to be checked when an idling unit is fueled at a service track after (or during) a long run. Or it used to be that way.

The Canadian railroads had their own reasons for wide car-bodies on some locos because of severe winter weather, not for aesthetics.

Last edited by Ace
Rusty Traque posted:
Dan Padova posted:
Hot Water posted:

ADRIADIC,

When it comes to manufacturing real diesel freight locomotives, neither "style" nor "aerodynamic efficiency", is a factor. The freight train speeds do not exceed 80MPH in the U.S. and Canada. Those compound curves of the olde "E" and "F" Unit "carbody style" units would be WAY TOO costly to manufacture today, and there really is no need/requirement in todays modern railroading anyway.

I don't get it.  Automobile manufacturers have all sorts of compound curves in their designs.  So where's the stumbling block in doing it for larger vehicles.  

I agree, with whomever said that styling will get the attention of the public.  Isn't that what the auto companies do ?

Maybe I am hoping for a more idealistic world.  In reality, a world like that might do some good.

Building an F or E unit wasn't like building a model of them with their one piece shells:

54079273_EMDFunitconstruction01

A LOT of labor went into building them and the photo only shows "the tip of the iceberg," as it were.

Rusty

You can't compare building a toy to building the real thing.  And with modern manufacturing techniques, it should be alot simpler to build compound curves than it was 70 years ago.  

Dan Padova posted:

You can't compare building a toy to building the real thing.  And with modern manufacturing techniques, it should be alot simpler to build compound curves than it was 70 years ago.  

But,,,,,why would a manufacturer WANT to? If it is much more expensive and NOT as strong as the current "North American Safety Cab", then what would be the point? The current cab designs MEET THE REQUIREMENTS, and are cost effective.

Dan Padova posted:
Rusty Traque posted:
Dan Padova posted:
Hot Water posted:

ADRIADIC,

When it comes to manufacturing real diesel freight locomotives, neither "style" nor "aerodynamic efficiency", is a factor. The freight train speeds do not exceed 80MPH in the U.S. and Canada. Those compound curves of the olde "E" and "F" Unit "carbody style" units would be WAY TOO costly to manufacture today, and there really is no need/requirement in todays modern railroading anyway.

I don't get it.  Automobile manufacturers have all sorts of compound curves in their designs.  So where's the stumbling block in doing it for larger vehicles.  

I agree, with whomever said that styling will get the attention of the public.  Isn't that what the auto companies do ?

Maybe I am hoping for a more idealistic world.  In reality, a world like that might do some good.

Building an F or E unit wasn't like building a model of them with their one piece shells:

54079273_EMDFunitconstruction01

A LOT of labor went into building them and the photo only shows "the tip of the iceberg," as it were.

Rusty

You can't compare building a toy to building the real thing.  And with modern manufacturing techniques, it should be alot simpler to build compound curves than it was 70 years ago.  

Great. Maybe the rail fans who like these round shapes can locate a supplier with large enough presses for bending the thick steel plates into these fancy shapes, convince them to build them in low quantities, pay for the tooling & commit to buying them at whatever high quantity the supplier decides & pay from their own pocket. From the complaints I see on these forums when Lionel increases the prices of their models, I don’t have much confidence in that happening. I am a design engineer for cabs that are used in Caterpillar construction & mining equipment & it is my opinion that just because it can be done, doesn’t mean the customers will pay for something that doesn’t give them value or help them make more money.

Let’s face it folks. If the railroads were too fond of these round shapes as much as the rail fans are & the railroads were willing to keep paying whatever it took to design, validate & manufacture these fancy shapes, the locomotive builders would have continued to make them.

These are just my opinion,

Thanks,

Naveen Rajan

One, aerodynamic design of the freight train power units has very little impact on efficiency. If you are pulling more than 100 freight cars that are essentially boxes, the drag coefficient on the lead units is almost meaningless.

Two, even though they were also used on freight trains, F and E units were designed and built during the passenger streamlined era. In that era, looks mattered from a marketing standpoint, because the railroads wanted to do whatever they could to get people to ride those trains. And aerodynamic designs were important for passenger trains from a speed standpoint, which also tied into marketing. Except for Amtrak, which still does use aerodynamic locomotive designs for passenger service, those days are long gone for railroads.

Three, locomotive manufacturers and design engineers know what they are doing. It's their business, and they know what their customers want. They are infinitely more attuned to their business than anyone on this forum who simply decides he or she likes the looks of old F units and therefore thinks that's what manufacturers should build. Have some respect for the people who are trained in their profession and not merely working on personal whims.

 

Dan Padova posted:

You can't compare building a toy to building the real thing. 

The point is many folks think building the real thing is just as easy as building a model the further we get away from a heavy industrial manufacturing culture.  Heck, a lot of people aren't even aware of what's involved in the building the model, either.

Rusty

Hot Water posted:
Dan Padova posted:
Hot Water posted:

ADRIADIC,

When it comes to manufacturing real diesel freight locomotives, neither "style" nor "aerodynamic efficiency", is a factor. The freight train speeds do not exceed 80MPH in the U.S. and Canada. Those compound curves of the olde "E" and "F" Unit "carbody style" units would be WAY TOO costly to manufacture today, and there really is no need/requirement in todays modern railroading anyway.

I don't get it.  Automobile manufacturers have all sorts of compound curves in their designs.  So where's the stumbling block in doing it for larger vehicles.  

For starters, the smaller & thinner sheets of metal (notice I did state STEEL) for automobiles, are stamped in huge high volume stamping presses. The thicker steel sheets in the nose of modern freight diesel units is MUCH thicker, plus MUST be backed up by HUGE internal collision posts, capable of deflecting somewhere in the neighborhood of one million pounds, designed so as to protect cab-crews. The idea is to deflect forces up and over the front cab. Thus, it would be EXTREMELY expensive to make an "E" or "F" Unit front nose comply with todays mandated "crash protection" requirements.

I agree, with whomever said that styling will get the attention of the public.

The "public" does NOT purchase, nor maintain, freight diesel units!

 Isn't that what the auto companies do ?

Well duh,,,,,,,it IS a "consumer product"!

Maybe I am hoping for a more idealistic world.  In reality, a world like that might do some good.

Really?

 

"The "public" does NOT purchase, nor maintain, freight diesel units!"

Maybe not.  But the public needs to gain some appreciation for the railroads.  Perhaps if they do, it might sway how Washington views the railroads.  And if that happens, it might open up new support by politicians to give more support to the railroads.  And if that happens, then maybe the railroads could gain more traffic.  And if that happens maybe, just maybe our long distance passenger network can come out of the stone age.  

Well duh,,,,,,,it IS a "consumer product"!

I'm not even going to give you the satisfaction of replying to that one.

Really?

Nor that one.

   Considering our governments past/present involvement, and the obvious "to big to fail"  issues, it is a consumer product even, though its not used as much by the average consumer, the consumer does exist.

  Its been years, but rail service service is still a way the ship a private machinists mill, and well as providing a casual trip to Chicago.

  Just because the little guy isn't the prime customer at the moment, we do exist, and so does eminent domain. Though I'm sure that's as "bad" a word for the business world on occasion, as it is for the citizen, it's just one more item to ad to the list of little reasons that could become big reasons, without care.

Maybe lowering expectations, and keeping them low, are that "care"?

Every passenger train does slow the freight a bit.  Is this just a repeat of what GM did to "help" trolley and inter-urban lines?


Rusty Traque posted:
Dan Padova posted:

You can't compare building a toy to building the real thing. 

The point is many folks think building the real thing is just as easy as building a model the further we get away from a heavy industrial manufacturing culture.  Heck, a lot of people aren't even aware of what's involved in the building the model, either.

Rusty

That's not me Rusty, my experience may not include mobile boilers, but does include more than a dozen hands on experiences replacing steamer sized boilers, and various forms of heavy metal fabrication elsewhere too. My hood was for a 1940s Chevy not exactly thin, though thinner than a loco panel (?). A true carbody is not going to happen near as easily as a "skin job". We likely wont see a "retro" version either. If embraced well enough by the public again, maybe. But RR's will need to see a monetary, and consumer attitude change about the passenger business first. Some style would be needed, "we" demand it every day out of everything else; I don't see a reason to let the RR's off the hook any longer. I think there's a slight resistance to this by those that saw the last decline first hand, and a need for Conrail later. An unfounded fear. You are too big to fall, it might get bumpy, but the wheels are going to turn no matter what. And the govt. will let go of your hand when ready again.

    The crews like being safe, and I don't blame them (Best point!) But I think better style could be done without compromising it. I'm a bit too industrial in my own builds, to offer a stylish design solution the rest of the world would like, but feel strongly that somewhere, there is a room full of folks that could if they were allowed.

  Walkways and vision go hand in hand, but the cab is just as wide, and extended pilot platforms aren't new, but are they safe? Would they end up in the cab on collision, or would the extension distance increase the safety even more?

  Crying about the heat to an industrial HVAC guy, yields little sympathy. I did the ten minute time limit for working in extreme heat, many hundreds of times too. I preferred the hands on work despite it. The cab (or a reefer if bad enough) is likely way cooler than my rest areas were, and of course "kitchens have doors".

   The "Cat" is more stylish than ever in my eyes. You won the industrial style competition, even though you're attempting to throw off the games spread.

  Despite length, it wouldn't really be my post style without these too, eh?  ...... 

()

Putnam Division posted:

Digging through my pictures archives, I found a few more......

Peter

Peter,

    Have you done an in depth post on your layout? I recognize aspects of parts of it immediately, but I've been curious about seeing it as a whole, for a long time. If I did ask before, I admittedly have forgotten but would like to see it (again?) sometime.

Well, I guess now we all know why we'll never see any cool looking streamlined freight locomotives made anymore in the real world. But what should that matter to 3 rail O-gauge traditional, hi-rail and O-27 model railroading? We constantly hear and read that it's our layout we can do what we want! If you like the modern angled box look run with it. If you like all the vintage curves, run with that.

On the other hand, I also think vintage boxcab diesels are cool too.

Even some streamlined shapes can be ugly in my book. Like most of today's  automobiles, SUV's and pickup trucks. I find them nowhere near as cool looking as vehicles from the 30's to early 50's, roughly the same time frame of the cool looking streamlined trains. And I was born in the 60's so you can't say I like what I grew up with!   LOL

JerryG posted:

Peter,

Great pics.  Love to see more of that nursery layout.  Pretty unique.

Here are some of mine.  Two on the overhead and two on the table layout.100_0661New Haven100_0712

What's not to love about these beauties?

Jerry

Jerry......to see more of the nursery layout (Great Big GreenHouse in Midlothian/BonAir VA), look in this thread:

https://ogrforum.com/topic/modular-group-news

Or, on my You Tube channel:

rutlandmilk

Peter

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