My Sunset FP-7's arrived yesterday

Updated Response:

Just to clarify.  I run at 128 speed steps.  The issue starts at above 15, or in this case, about 10% of maximum power.

Scott, have you used the same brand motor in all versions as well?

To enlarge on PRR Man's question, I would like to know the technical specifications of the motor or a reference to them.

Thanks,

Ed

The motor in the FP7s is the same as E7s and FL9s, a 5 Pole Canon FN38 motor.

The only difference between the FP7s and the previous models is the wheel diameter.

QSI is now studying the reports and will investigate with their own sample model. I am hoping it is just a tweaking of the CVs.

The "Titan" QSI Circuit and all other electronics and wiring is essentially the same as previous models. When I find out, I will report it here.

Until then... RUN YOUR TRAINS.

Scott Mann

I have 2 E7s that I have run.   Mine ran fine together.   However, the lights all behaved "funny".   I contacted to QSI and got information to program them and that still did not cure it.    QSI then sent me a wiring diagram.    So I opened up my unit and compared the wiring with the diagram.   This was a little tough because as QSI used different color wires out of the decoder, when the builder had to lengthen them, he used ALL red wires and then bundled them together.    When I finally sorted that out, I figured out that the builder had not wired the lights according to the QSI wiring diagram for the function outputs.    I was then able to reprogram the lights to proper behavior.

I think this is a quality issue with the builder.

However, I do have 2 FP7s but I have  used them yet.   A friend picked them up at his LHS and I have not gotten them yet.

Scott,

Thanks for the info on the motor.  However, there are three FN 38 motors.  Which one did you use and what is the voltage?

Thanks again,

Ed

Kelly Dorf sent it to me.   If you send me an an email with your address, I can send a copy to you. 

Regarding Back EMF, from what I've read regarding HO scale decoders - MU'ing two locomotives both using Back EMF can cause the motors to fight each other. Back EMF is like cruise control.  Try disabling and see if the jerkiness quits.

How do you disable back EMF?

Thanks,

Ed

Set CV56.4 to 0 for Standard throttle control.  Set CV56.4 to 1 for RTC with back EMF.  Read oage 8 in the manual to learn how to program these "indexed" cv's.

Here is the manual:   http://qsisolutions.com/pdf/ti...le_diesel_manual.pdf

Quite true with conventional back EMF.  However, QSI uses back EMF in conjunction with an adaptive speed control to solve this problem.  For example, if your front engine is slower than the rear one, the rear engine will automatically slow as it senses resistance to its higher power output.  With traditional EMF, the rear unit would apply more power against the slower front unit, causing wheel slip and gear strain.  That's why QSI calls their system Regulated Throttle Control, instead of just back EMF control.  Try grabbing a QSI engine while its running at a high speed and hold it back.  When you let go, it will be running at a much slower speed, and then gradually increase speed back to its original rate.  Try it, its fun to play games with them!  Now, turn off the RTC, and the engine will no longer slow down. 

Dave,

I assume you are having trouble with the headlight and the number boards. In my experimentation, I have found that the headlight is controlled by the backup light function and the number board lights are controlled by the headlight function. I haven't opened up a unit to trace wires, but this can be fixed by changing some settings using Decoder Pro rather than wiring changes. Sunset sent me a copy of the wiring diagram and either it is wrong or the factory didn't wire some of the lights to the intended outputs on the decoder. The Mars, classification, and cab lights seem to operate on their intended outputs.

I don't know if you still have family in Raleigh, but if you do and come to visit them sometime, bring your units and try them out on my layout. I have an A-B-A set and they handle 25 cars up the 2.5% grade on the loop with no problem, and the sound at full volume rattles the windows.

Jerry, if you figure out the CV change to fix the headlights and numberboards let me know.  It does seem they are reversed on my units as well.

Glenn,

I used Decoder Pro 3 to do the changes so didn't have to know the CVs or values. But, looking in the QSI manual (link below) I think that the following CVs were set:

    CV 55.70.1  set to 85 decimal (55 hex) causes number boards to be on dim all the time.

    CV 55.73.1  set to 86 decimal (56 hex) causes headlight to be on bright when moving forward, on dim when stopped or running reverse.

This should work if all of the other CVs 55.70.SI and 55.73.SI are set at their default values.

There are a bunch of parameters that can be set for the lights (see list below, with page numbers in the manual) but they all have default values that work.

The manual is on the QSI website at http://www.qsisolutions.com/do...s/index.html#manuals

You can read the manual online (requires a PDF reader like Adobe Acrobat Reader) or download it (421 pages). Click on the "Full DCC Reference" item at the top of the page at the link.

I did the changes above before I learned about the Light Ports. See page 13 of the manual that you linked above (the 16 page manual) for information on CV 115.PI.SI. I didn't try it but you might be able to just switch the L#s in CV 115.PI.SI

     CV 115.70.0    default 1 - headlight   change to 2 so that the light wired to output L2 (the headlight) is controlled by the parameters for the headlight

     CV 115.73.0    default 2 - reverse light  change to 0 since you don't want two functions trying to control the same output (L2)

     CV 115.100.0   default 8 - front nbr boards  change to 1 so that the lights wired to L1 (the nbr bds) are controlled by the parameters for the front nbr bds.

I believe the lights will then work with the default settings in all of the rest of the CVs.


Quantum DCC Ref Manual Ver 5.1.0

5.7.5 CV 55.70.SI Headlight________________________________________________________________________________135
5.7.5.1 CV 55.70.0 Headlight Initial State ____________________________________________________________________136
5.7.5.2 CV 55.70.1 Automatic Headlight Configuration __________________________________________________________137
5.7.5.3 CV 55.70.10 Headlight Dim Intensity __________________________________________________________________138
5.7.5.4 CV 55.70.12 Headlight Max Intensity__________________________________________________________________139
5.7.5.5 CV 55.70.15 Headlight Ramp Up Rate ________________________________________________________________140
5.7.5.6 CV 55.70.16 Headlight Ramp Down Rate ______________________________________________________________141
5.7.5.7 CV 55.70.17 Headlight Ramp Up Time ________________________________________________________________142
5.7.5.8 CV 55.70.18 Headlight Ramp Down Time ______________________________________________________________143
5.7.5.9 CV 55.70.SI Headlight Examples_____________________________________________________________________144

5.7.6 CV 55.73.SI Reverse Light ____________________________________________________________________________145
5.7.6.1 CV 55.73.0 Reverse Light Initial State _________________________________________________________________146
5.7.6.2 CV 55.73.1 Automatic Reverse Light Configuration_______________________________________________________147
5.7.6.3 CV 55.73.10 Reverse Light Dim Intensity ______________________________________________________________148
5.7.6.4 CV 55.73.12 Reverse Light Max Intensity ______________________________________________________________149
5.7.6.5 CV 55.73.15 Reverse Light Ramp Up Rate _____________________________________________________________150
5.7.6.6 CV 55.73.16 Reverse Light Ramp Down Rate___________________________________________________________151
5.7.6.7 CV 55.73.17 Reverse Light Ramp Up Time_____________________________________________________________152
5.7.6.8 CV 55.73.18 Reverse Light Ramp Down Time __________________________________________________________153
5.7.6.9 CV 55.73.SI Reverse Light Examples _________________________________________________________________154


I hope everything works for you.

Dave,

After seeing your picture of the unit, I am glad I haven't opened one up. I hope it all goes back together easily.

The wiring diagram that Sunset sent me is for the E7 and they told me that it was supposed to apply to the FP7 as well. As you can see on the diagram, no connection for the front number boards is shown. The Light Ports read from the FP7 match the connections shown in the diagram. Let me know what you find out.

I hope you can come by next time you are down this way. You haven't seen the signal system with the CTC machine. I finally got it running.

Dave,

Were there any markings on the motor which would tell us which of the Canon FN38 possibilities it is and what is the voltage?

Thanks,

Ed

Jerry, thanks for the information on the lighting CV's.  I'll give them a try the next time I can run the engines.  They do looks to be complex, so thanks for taking the time to figure them out.

It has been suggested on the Yahoo group the PID settings are not correctly calibrated. I have downloaded and installed the QSI CV manager, but have not had the time to test and verify the engine. I hope to do that before week's end (if I'm not clearing more snow!).

I can tell you that QSI is very interested in this issue and is monitoring our comments.

Gents: I have sent a new FP7 to QSI for Calibration as of 2.11. Once they have created a new calibration file, one can update their firmware via a QSI Programmer with the new Q2 file. I suggest to anyone without a QSI Programmer to pick one up from QSISOLUTIONS.COM so any further firmware updates are available to you on any of our models. Firmware updates are inevitable because QSI requires a production model for their calibration. The models are usually finished and boxed up by the time we receive such a firmware update making it impossible to provide the update before shipping the models to customers. Since I didn't see any of these mid speed issues during our testing, it never occurred to me that a firmware update was needed. Here we are...

Stand by for a few days while QSI creates their calibration file. 

Thanks for the critique of the wiring issue. I usually only observe the result of the wiring in our QC testing, assuming they are following the wiring diagram I provide. Now I will know to do this. You have to show them how to tie their shoes too. 

Scott

here's further food for this subject:

last night I ran my FP7 for the second time on the club layout, this time with a train of 8 cars in tow. the hesitant driving charactieristics are exactly as when it ran alone.

my impression is the engine is fighting itself, that the motor feedback causes vaiations of more and less power to the motor. the replies I received at Yahoo to adjust PID values sound similar to the calibration QSI will perform to even out performance.

it's time to get familiar with the QSI programmer manual. thanks Scott.

As Dave said above , if the changes required to fine tune the performance of the QSI Titan in the FP7 can be made using Configuration Variable (CV's) then there is no special need for DCC users to purchase QSI's Programmer.  The QSI Programmer is an essential tool if the firmware needs to be reloaded, or if you want to download/customize a new sound file. 

For programming CV's DCC users have 3 options.

 - The CV programming functions built into your DCC system (NCE, Digitrax, etc)

 - QSI's CV programmer (loaded on a PC)

 - NMRA's JMRI software (loaded on a PC), and its free!

The beauty of the latter two is that interaction is through user friendly interfaces,  and your PC can save all the settings should you need to "reset" your decoder, or program a similar locomotive.

Ed Rappe

Hi All,

I don't know enough about DCC to fill a thimble so this may seem very naive.

Would the problem of jerky running disappear if the back emf was just turned off?

Regards,

Ed

Ed,

the QSI CV programmer is a downloadable program, that gets installed on a PC.

it is free.

there is no added hardware related to it. one uses the same serial or USB connection to a DCC system (NCE in my case) that would be used with other software like DecoderPro.

Unfortunately QSI has a very complicated black box approach to calibration. If I was able to calibrate these systems myself we would NOT be having this conversation. 

Ed Kelly, if you have a computer or laptop with a USB port, you can easily update the system on any of your QSI equipped models (USING THE QSI PROGRAMMER). It is a very user friendly, simple system. 

I am very much a believer of the KISS principal, but in this case we are working with a highly engineered DCC systems, designed to do many more things than the average modeler is looking for. Stand by for the updated firmware from QSI.

Scott Mann

Thanks gentlemen.  I think it is time for me to learn more.

Regards,

Ed

Just thought I would bump this up since we are still waiting for a solution to the jerky motion problem.  Any news yet of a solution?

Regards,

Ed

I heard this AM that a CV value change fix has been found and tested successfully - recommend we wait for "official" word from Scott and QSI.

Chris - there may be some confusion in your earlier post

QSI's Quantum CV Manager is a free software package that enables users to change change CV's using a PC interfaced with a DCC system -  somewhat like the JMRI's Decoder Pro

QSI's Quantum Programmer is a hardware software system with a MSRP of $104.95.  It enables you to set up a programming test track directly connected to your PC (independent of your DCC system).  With it you can download and install new QSI firmware/sound files on QSI decoders.  It works nicely with CV Manager. 

If one only need to change CV's you don't need to invest in QSI Programmer.  If you want to upgrade your system's performance with the latest Q3 sound packages as they come out, you (or your dealer) will need a QSI Programmer to download and install the updated firmware.  I have one and for me it was well worth the cost.

Ed Rappe 

That's great news about a fix that only involves CV's.  Hopefully that same fix will work for the FL-9's.

Ed, you are correct. I did confuse the programmer for the CV manager. I'm glad you cleared that up.

While this thread has largely turned into a discussion of the operation of these under DCC, I would love to see more pictures of the different paint schemes.  Scott was able to track down the PRR units I was looking for and they arrived today.  On first glance, the models are amazing. 

Post your pictures!  I would love to see some of the other schemes and how they look.

Just want to bump this up again.

Has the solution been found and is it ready for publication?

Regards,

Ed

Finally received my Tuscan FP7 last week.  I am very pleased with the model overall.  I haven't run it yet, but I displayed on the track of the three rail operating club I belong to on Thursday evening.  Just taken with my cell phone, so not the best image, but not the worst either.

I talked to Josh Shedaker at QSI Solutions this afternoon and he's been recalibrating the QSI Titan decoder in a Sunset 3rd Rail FP7 sent to him by one of our forumites. He said smoothing it out was a "piece of cake" entailing  a few CV changes.  Josh will update the QSI solutions web site with notes about the changes he made in a day or so. He went on to say he was impressed with how it sounds, looks and now runs. 

Ed Rappe

Looks real nice,they are getting better with every new run,not to nit pick and I realize there are consessions to the 3rail market but would be nice to see coupler cut levers and main air hose off coupler pocket [note neat job Atlas and MTH do].JMO

For the PRR version, the coupler cut lever is behind the solid pilot. The air hose would be a nice detail.

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/404133/

This UP version on Ebay right now has the cut bar as is prototypical for the "frieght" style pilot.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/O-Scal...;hash=item3a8c2834c9

Ed R,

Will you please provide the web address for QSI Solutions?

Thanks,

Ed 

My bad I did not pick up on the earlier Reading pics and the main air hose is easy to add to side of coupler pocket.

No worries at all!  Any and all comments on how to continue to make these models better with every run are always welcome.  FTs are being reworked now to incorporate road specific details and it is those little details that certainly make the difference. 

Any news of the fix for the jerky motion at higher speed?

Regards,

Ed