My Sunset FP-7's arrived yesterday

You people have gotta be out of your freakin' minds!! A stupid diesel model come in and don't work. Then you all go nuts pla'in games with CV's this and Back Emf that and the **** thing still don't work right (according to what I've just read). According to Scott, "what do you expect for $500 bucks?" Or when I got my 4800 GG1 with a bent underframe, that is what I was told (only it was $1000 bucks).

Send the **** things back and demand a refund. Maybe next time, they will come back without problems. Then this thread will only be a couple of responses long.

Sorry for the negativity, but this is really unbelievable.

Buzz

Buzz, don't quote me falsely... I never said what you claim. Every customer and order is important to me. Even if it's just a packet of Little People for $25.

Most of you know us personally, and know that we stand behind our product. I have been waiting for 2 weeks for QSI to calibrate the sample I sent them. On 2-21 I was promised to have the solution for this by 2-23. Here we are 3-5 and nothing. You think I am happy about that?

I am sorry folks, I didn't see the jerky motion on our test track at the factory or at the office, so I had no clue there was a problem until we got reports from customers. I thought the calibration was for steam chuffing, not basic running properties of a model. The only difference between the FP7 and the earlier diesels we had was the larger wheel diameter. I guess we have to get this calibration done every time. 

But luckily these models have electronics that are software driven and can be upgraded with a simple 5 minute process. I will send an email to every customer that bought from us directly or their dealer with the fix the same day I get it from QSI.

And of course, we have a 30 day money back guarantee... and I will extended it for anyone that wants to return for a refund their FP7 diesels for any reason.

Scott Mann - China

I received a reply from QSI. They did re calibrate the software, but found another issue they want to resolve before releasing the the updated file. I will keep you posted.

Scott Mann

If I were you Scott, I would skip the decoders on future models and just offer DCC ready models with DCC sockets. 

I like the Titans, but lately I've been thinking of trying the ESU LokSound 4.0 XL decoders. Stupid question, but since I don't have an FP I'll ask... Do they have DCC sockets or are they hardwired?

This seems like pretty technically advanced stuff for such low volume production.  I am actually blown away with all the fancy stuff that is being crammed into these models, and the fact that it works reasonably well most of the time is impressive.

If you want to throw brickbats at Scott, consider how many alternatives you have for reasonably priced, reasonably accurate 2-rail models.  I do not think I would enjoy doing what he is doing.  If he stops enjoying it, and goes on to more lucrative endeavors, we will be the poorer.

signed: You People.

There is no such thing as an O Scale DCC plug.  Atlas has an Atlas specific group of plugs that work only with Atlas's version of decoders.  QSI and NCE and Loksound and MRC and Zimo and whomever else is making "large scale" decoders have no interest in a standard interface primarily because very few large scale folks participate in the NMRA which would come up with the standard.

That's what I figured. Thanks guys. I just shake my head at how much easier things are to accomplish in HO... If only I could get used to a smaller train I would model in HO for many reasons. Standards being at the top of the list. Seems like an 8,9, or 21 pin socket would be easy to wire in. Then if you ever wanted to upgrade/replace the DCC board it would be a much simpler job. This idea in O that the electronics are tied to the loco and can't be changed without major surgery or buying the same engine with new electronics is ridiculous IMHO. Electronics improve with time. There is a good chance you will want to change them at some point.

Having said that, I'm glad Scott chose the Titan. It is a good system. I'm sure QSI will get the bugs worked out and hopefully the FTs won't have this problem.

Talked to a friend who knows a man who drove FP7's for forty five years, his favorite locomotive.  Had a Key, got rid of it, and bought the Sunset because it is better!  He should know.  Not surprised in the least.  Scott Mann should be pleased, go Sunset!

I did a quick market research trick, and offered FP7s in 2R without sound and DCC for a 30 day period. I offered them straight DC for $50 less.

I got 8 takers out of 300. So this is why we will not go to all the trouble of making 2 types of 2R Models. It's very hard to keep track of special orders like that. and the engineers have to work twice as hard making 2 sets of wiring harnesses and checking 2R models with sound, differently than without sound and DCC. There is more to it than meets the eye.

I know some of you want them Straight DC, and those that do, probably have the skill to remove the existing electronics and wire them up that way.

We are focusing on improving other areas of our diesel productions such as closer coupling systems, more prototypical steps, working diaphragms and a better cab interiors.

I read all your inputs with great interest to help improve our product. We do this step by step, improving each product a little more with proven techniques.

My years in Aerospace taught me never to do engineering on a production schedule. The delays can be devastating. We want to use only proven technology and techniques.

Thank you all again.

Scott Mann - China

Quick bounce off topic - do you have a ship date for the L1's yet?  Only curious since I'll be headed to the Chicago March Meet next Wednesday and will be away from home for a week.

Thanks and back to the FP7 discussion.... sweet looking power!  

Scott sent an email to a dealer, perhaps all of them, saying that a QSI Programmer will be needed for the FP-7 fix at a cost of $105.

First, is the QSI Programmer needed or does it just make the job easier?

Second, is the QSI Programmer compatible with the Apple iMac?

Thanks,

Ed

The QSI Programmer is compatible with Mac or PC OSs. It is a tool for updating the firmware of the QSI Quantum and Titan and Future DCC/Sound Systems used by Atlas and Sunset Models.

It is an essential tool for any model train operator, to obtain the latest software upgrades for their fleet.

Now that QSI Solutions is run by Josh Shedaker, future updates and new sound files will become available for our models as never before.

The upgrade kit, does not require knowledge of DCC or any complexity of that nature.

The steps for upgrading are as simple as can be...

1. You connect the QSI Programmer to your Laptop or Desktop computer, install the software per the instructions.

2. You connect the output of the programmer to a piece of track and place your model on the track.

3. You select the .Q2 upgrade file in the program software. This is the file I will be sending everyone for this process.

4. You click on UPGRADE YOUR LOCO... and the process runs with a few simple prompts.

5. When it is done, after about 5 minutes, he tells you so.

6. From within the Upgrade software you can adjust many of the sounds and behaviors of your model to your liking. I suggest you experiment with new sounds and effects. 

Then these setting will remain in the model's system for DC or DCC operation.

I am trying to obtain 10 of these programmers in case customers do not want to buy their own. I would lend to them for a short time for this first update process.

But I think one should consider this as a necessary tool to keep your models in tip top shape.

Regards,

Scott Mann

Scott,

Thanks for the detailed explanation.  It does sound easy.

Cheers,

Ed

Need to be clear here.  Updating the firmware is NOT the same thing as changing CVs.

Scott, you mentioned the .q2 file. Are these Titan decoders not using the .q3 Emulator files? The Emulator technology is what separates the Titans from other DCC decoders IMHO.

My point earlier wasn't about offering straight DC versions. IMHO the HO community has this nailed down. Make the engines with a standard DCC socket so any decoder can be used. I know that this isn't really done in O, but it could be. Atlas is offering their new Trainman diesels with DCC sockets. If you wire lights, motor, power, etc... to a female socket then you have 1 standard for your engines. While I do have the ability to pull out the hardwired electronics and wire in my own socket, that isn't something I want to have to do with every engine.

Don Thompson of S-Helper service did this years ago and as such his S scale engines could support DC, AC, DCC, or their own proprietary systems. Just depended on what you plugged in.

Anyways, not trying to armchair quarterback here... just trying to help.

The upgrade approach using a QSI Quantum Programmer laid out in Scott’s post is the easiest way to go for most 2 railers – both DC and DCC.  It will have the advantage of addressing improved motor and lighting control issues, while updating the sound to QSI’s Q3 Emulator Technology EMD 567 sound set.

However there is an alternative route not requiring reloading the firmware if you have a DCC system and are comfortable changing a number of indexed Configuration Variables (CV’s).  The same motor control CV changes QSI Solutions’ Josh Shedaker is incorporating in a firmware update file can be made by a savvy DCC user.  With Josh’s permission, here is his CV fix list.

 Sunset Models O-Scale FP7 Fix List

QSI Solutions 2/24/14

CV Fix List: Program these CVs on the mainline to have our verbal programming read back assist you in ensuring you’ve programmed the right CVs in the right order. Indexed CVs will be displayed whole then broken down into the individual CV49/50 values.

1: Start Voltage CV2= 24

2: RTC Min BEMF CV56.5=6 to set this, program the following CVs in the following order;

CV49=5

CV56=6

PID Parameters.

3a: Very Low Speed Proportional Gain CV56.18.0=60 to set this, program the following CVs in the following order;

CV50=0

CV49=18

CV56=60

3b: Very Low Speed Integral Gain CV56.18.1=1 to set this, program the following CVs in the following order;

CV50=1

CV56=1

3c: Very Low Speed Differential Gain CV56.18.2=150 to set this, program the following CVs in the following order;

CV50=2

CV56=150

4a: Low Speed Proportional Gain CV56.19.0=10 to set this, program the following CVs in the following order;

CV50=0

CV49=19

CV56=10

4b: Low Speed Integral Gain CV56.19.1=1 to set this, program the following CVs in the following order;

CV50=1

CV56=1

4c: Low Speed Differential Gain CV56.19.2=35 to set this, program the following CVs in the following order;

CV50=2

CV56=35

5a: Medium Speed Proportional Gain CV56.20.0=7 to set this, program the following CVs in the following order;

CV50=0

CV49=20

CV56=7

5b: Medium Speed Integral Gain CV56.20.1=1 to set this, program the following CVs in the following order;

CV50=1

CV56=1

5c: Medium Speed Differential Gain CV56.20.2=25 to set this, program the following CVs in the following order;

CV50=2

CV56=25

6a: High Speed Proportional Gain CV56.21.0=7 to set this, program the following CVs in the following order;

CV50=0

CV49=21

CV56=7

6b: High Speed Integral Gain CV56.21.1=1 to set this, program the following CVs in the following order;

CV50=1

CV56=1

6c: High Speed Differential Gain CV56.21.2=15 to set this, program the following CVs in the following order;

CV50=2

CV56=15

Speed Calibration Settings (optional, but recommended)

7: SMPH/BEMF Ratio CV56.7.0-1= 850 to set this, program the following CVs in the following order;

CV50=0

CV49=7

CV56=82

Then:

CV50=1

CV56=3

8: BEMF Offset CV56.8=33 to set this, program the following CVs in the following order;

CV49=8

CV56=33

Quoting Josh “Successful programming of these CVs will dramatically improve the FP7’s operation and, if speed calibrated, will cause speed dependent effects like automatic brake squeal, transitions, and Doppler Effect to work correctly based on locomotive scale miles per hour”.   I want to thank Josh and QSI Solutions for sharing the FP7 CV “fixes”. Folks should know his company was not responsible for the as delivered configuration/settings on the Sunset 3^rd Rail FP7.

I’m a DCC user and could make the CV changes using my NCE system.  But since I want the new Emulation Technology EMD 567 sounds I’m going to wait for Josh to put his FP7 Q3 file on the QSI Solutions web site and go the firmware upgrade route using a Quantum Programmer. 

Ed Rappe

I just programmed the CV's that Ed Rappe posted into a Sunset FL-9 with the QSI Titan decoder.  What a huge difference it made.  Runs smooth at all speed steps. Although I have both Decoder Pro 3 and the QSI Programmer, I decided to enter the CV's manually to see how that worked.  I'll do my other FL-9's and FP-7 next.  The only problem I had was programming the SMPH/BEMF Ratio.  After CV56=82 the decoder immediately read back a different number than CV56.7.0-1=850  Could that setting possibly be a mis-print?  Anyway, the locomotive runs very well without that CV modified.

I am still waiting for an upgrade file, and not getting any response from QSI Solutions on these fixes. 

When I receive a file for you, I will email you all. Dealers, you need to contact your customers when this happens. 

Scott Mann - Back in the US.

YEA!!!! QSI has sent me a brand new update file. It is a .q3 update with improved sounds and better running quality. This is for both DC and DCC.

I have emailed all direct customers and dealers this file. I am ordering QSI Update Programmers from QSI Solutions and you can too.

The new file is quite large, 9MB because of all the new sounds. So the update process takes about 1 hour and 20 minutes. You only need the QSI Programmer, a computer and a short piece of track to set your model on, and connect the programmer to. Very simple process.

Thank Josh Shedaker of QSI Solutions for creating this file, in conjunction with the Staff at QSI.

Onward!!!!

Look forward to applying the upgraded file.  Will start with Ed's posted CV changes and see how they work.

Here is a short video of my WP FP7's

A couple more photos

Wow! Mike those locomotives look great. Sound great too! Thanks for the video.

In addition to sending the Q3 file to Scott, QSI Solutions Josh Shedaker sent one to me and gave the "OK" to share it with others.  The FP7 Q3 file includes the performance “fix” CV changes I posted March 10th and integrates those with a much upgraded EMD 567 sound file.  For those with a QSI's Quantum Programmer a firmware upgrade using Josh's "tuned" Q3 file is the best way to upgrade your FP7.  I understand sometime in the future the FP7 Q3 file will be posted for download on the QSI Solutions web site.  But if you have a QSI Programmer and want an advance copy of the file now, contact me via my profile’s email address and I’ll forward a copy of the FP7 Q3 file to you. 

Ed Rappe

I received my FP7 back from QSI Solutions today, Wow!

Here is the story:

When the 'jerkiness' issue came to light, Josh from QSI Solutions sought me out through an acquaintance and asked if I would send my engine to him so he could troubleshoot the issue. I was happy to help him sort it out. In return I got back my engine with the fix and the Q3 emulation technology firmware.

I strongly encourage anyone wanting this fix to take advantage of Scott Mann's offer to BORROW a QSI programmer from him so this new Q3 update can be loaded. This update has a clarity of sounds I have not heard ever before in a DCC decoder.

And also to mention the drive is as smooth as my other Sunset diesels with this drive system.

This will certainly figure in any future decoder purchases I make. If QSI has the sounds I need for a project, it'll be a Titan in there.

The Q3 Titan emulator files are amazing. I'm glad they got this issue sorted out. I'm a little surprised that they didn't come with the Q3 files. But at least you can get them upgraded.

I for one would really like to see a video of an FP7 with the Q3 update.

I have the QSI Programmer and the new Q3 file for the FP-7.  Has anyone done the upgrade yet as I can't get it to work.  The programmer I have is a Q2 version which according to QSI Soultions website is the latest, however it doesn't seem to recognize a Q3 file only Q2 files.  Any help would be appreciated as I am probably doing something wrong.

Jack,

you may want to check these items:

•ensure the program on your computer is communicating with the track correctly

•check the QSI solutions website to see if there is an update for the program software that is later than your installed version, which addresses the Q3 update.

Jack - if you still are having issues with uploading the Q3 file to your FP7 I recommend you call QSI Solutions (Josh) at 802-448-9899 and describe your problem to him. According to Josh a Q3 version of the QSI programmer is under development but the Q2 version will work with Q3 files - it's just slow.

Ed Rappe

Thanks Ed and John for your replies.  The problem I'm having is the Q3 file is not showing up in the QSI Programmer. I have a folder of numerous Q2 files and in that folder is the unzipped 1156 Q3 file (New Sunset FP-7 file) that Ed was so nice to send me. When I open the QSI Programmer and try to find the Q3 file either under recent files or the Browse button only the Q2 files that I have in the folder show up.  I have the latest software update that QSI Solutions has.  The heading says to select the Q2 or Q3 file that I want to load into the locomotive.  When I select the arrow or browse button the list is only populated with the Q2 files.  Even though the unzipped Q3 file is present in the folder on my desktop with other QSI Q2 files it doesn't show up in the programmer so it can be loaded. Just for grins I downloaded another Q3 file into the folder (1132 EMD 567 sound set) but it won't show up available to load into the programmer either.  I"ll call Josh at QSI Solutions tomorrow and see if he can help. I did change the CV's Ed posted, and the engine runs fine now at all speeds, but I guess the sounds are much improved with the new firmware file.

Got the QSI Programmer to accept Q3 files.  I had to tell the "files of type" box that I was looking for a Q3 file, otherwise it defaults looking for Q2 files only.

that's good news it was only a setting change.

If anyone is looking to purchase Sunset 3rd Rail PRR DGLE FP7's please email me via my profile.  We have unsold A-B-A's.

Ed Rappe

Ed: I too have one set left of the Sunset 2-rail Southern FP7 AB left. The customer who ordered it wanted the green version for his passenger train and they came in the black paint scheme instead though they showed the green on the web site..

Stephen

????  They should have been green.  I wonder who talked him into the black?