Need Help With an Electrical Failure

That era e-unit was not the best design, and would often burn out.  Unfortunately Lionel no longer has the board.  Best bet is to put a rectifier in and run it forward only.  

Isnt there also an on off switch for the direction? Or direction lockout? 

AmeenTrainGuy posted:

Why do you say it's one of the wires?

I said it was one of the wires because I accidentally put to much smoke fluid in and it burned something in their 

Allan Loczy posted:

Isnt there also an on off switch for the direction? Or direction lockout? 

Yes their is but that’s not the case, it indicates if you go forward or backward with the lights on the back and front but it won’t move 

BMT-Express posted:

That era e-unit was not the best design, and would often burn out.  Unfortunately Lionel no longer has the board.  Best bet is to put a rectifier in and run it forward only.  

Are you sure I mean their has to be another way I know that I accidentally put to much smoke fluid in and it caused that to burn. Their has to be another 

AmeenTrainGuy posted:

Why do you say it's one of the wires?

When I accidentally put to much smoke fluid in a smelled burned wires after it broke 

AmeenTrainGuy posted:

Which smoke fluid brand exactly? Some brands are non-conductive so they should not be able to damage components. If you already have it open, do you mind snapping a few photos?

No problem here’s the smoke unit and my engine. 

 

AmeenTrainGuy posted:

Well, the smoke fluid should not cause any problems. The red wire right in front of the firemen seems burnt. is that the wire you were talking about? It seems like your electronics are fine since you can blow the whistle and the lights do work. Do you hear the smoke unit's fan blowing when you turn the engine on?

 

A close up of the electronics would help since it's hard to assert which wire does not look right.

That could be the wire. Also my smoke unit is not fan driven it’s just the usual puffing smoke unit you see with conventional sets from the early 2000s. And sure I’ll give you a better picture soon 

Ameen you still need the picture my phone is charged up 

AmeenTrainGuy posted:

That wire looks like it's going to the switch. It could be that the switch is broken, but that's highly unlikely. Have you tried investigating the smoke unit? Does it smell burnt out?

Smoke unit smells fine it’s in the middle of the e or rev unit 

Looks like things got a little hot....

Turn your phone sideways for better photos. Upright is pretty much only good for selfies

Also I think a shot from directly overhead will be best. I know it eats data, but the more photos the better. Also after one loads and you get "success", a new line and checkbox appear mid-box "insert large size" check that. Some phones don't open thumbnails at the bottom. (also at the bottom of thumbnail box in blue, a second chance to insert large/med/sm.  If you edit, you can insert, reload, add,etc.

  That wire looks kinda cooked to me too; I can't Dyspute that 😂 It's wrinkles stick out like a sore thumb. It might be ok, soldering melt, or overtaxed by the issues at hand.

Is that sw. for smoke on/off, or program/run? (it is your lock out too. throw it to pgm. while loco is in Ñ and you go nowhere, but other features may work. If fwd when thrown, always fwd. etc.

Start by unplugging and/ or turning off smoke. Tackle running 1st and then worry about smoke later. 

AmeenTrainGuy posted:

Train Nut posted:

Looks like things got a little hot...

Good catch! Yeah, those do not look in very good condition and I am pretty sure those have something to do with the motor.

When you try to power it on does it feel hot? If so then that is the bug for sure.

 

Can you get a close up of that component in particular? Also, check if you see any melted plastic around it. Since those do get very hot when they break down.

I actually didn’t know that. When I get back from the dentist I’ll check it out. 

Adriatic posted:

Turn your phone sideways for better photos. Upright is pretty much only good for selfies

Also I think a shot from directly overhead will be best. I know it eats data, but the more photos the better. Also after one loads and you get "success", a new line and checkbox appear mid-box "insert large size" check that. Some phones don't open thumbnails at the bottom. (also at the bottom of thumbnail box in blue, a second chance to insert large/med/sm.  If you edit, you can insert, reload, add,etc.

  That wire looks kinda cooked to me too; I can't Dyspute that 😂 It's wrinkles stick out like a sore thumb. It might be ok, soldering melt, or overtaxed by the issues at hand.

Is that sw. for smoke on/off, or program/run? (it is your lock out too. throw it to pgm. while loco is in Ñ and you go nowhere, but other features may work. If fwd when thrown, always fwd. etc.

Start by unplugging and/ or turning off smoke. Tackle running 1st and then worry about smoke later. 

My bad for the picture just started this account not to long ago. Still getting used to some things. And yea I’m gonna do running it first, the engine looks good with or without smoke so I’m good.

Yep.... Don't think Ive never been the new guy too   

Wow, toasty. If you want to attempt a repair just to learn and explore, it  won't hurt. But I'd consider hunting a board to use or wiring in a bridge rectifier myself, trying a repair, and saving it for backup if you succeed. Start writing down the numbers on the black parts with metal heat sinks. It might do no good as they don't always use marked parts or normal numbers, but trying can save some hassle figuring things out . 

If you can once done with #s, wash the board in hot water, maybe with a little dish soap in it to remove the oils. Pat & shake & air dry fully (it's ok, believe me. Ive ran boards and even BIG mother boards thru industrial dishwashers a hundred times (turn of the chemicals if you use one of those and fasten/clip it to the racks in home machines.😁)

I have to cut it short for now. I don't argue when insomnia lets me sleep again.😴

I know it’s the next day but I didn’t get to see if it was hot or not I’m gonna do it now 

TheRoyalHudson988 posted:

AmeenTrainGuy posted:

Train Nut posted:

Looks like things got a little hot...

Good catch! Yeah, those do not look in very good condition and I am pretty sure those have something to do with the motor.

When you try to power it on does it feel hot? If so then that is the bug for sure.

 

Can you get a close up of that component in particular? Also, check if you see any melted plastic around it. Since those do get very hot when they break down.

I actually didn’t know that. When I get back from the dentist I’ll check it out. 

Ok well it’s not hot but it is burnt, so is this the part that needs replacing 

So does anyone know what I need to fix or replace 

The first thing you need to do is figure out what happened and why?   The smoke unit filling had nothing to do with an electrical short / overheating like that.

I’m not sure on that I’ll try it tomorrow.(sorry I waisted so long to post back I was busy today) and the Motor doesn’t move which means the engine can’t move

Everyone the smoke unit works great!😀 So it’s just the wire I need to worry about

Yes 

It’s a whole different unit separated from the motor 

Now test the motor before playing with the board.

Take one wire off  "somewher" & jump in 6-12v DC to motor (3a supply or  6v 9v 12v battery (ideally with a fuse or more care )  Just make shure it turns ok 360° under power,no load on wheels with lower voltage ..at 12v if used, it should be strong.  Reverse jump leads to test other direction too.

I can't see photos from the thumnail viewer. This is a copy paste off thumbnail of it' address; another option if you forget to check the box after success, before finishing uploading.  Unplug the motor and jump it to test that isn't an issue.

Adriatic posted:

Now test the motor before playing with the board.

Take one wire off  "somewher" & jump in 6-12v DC to motor (3a supply or  6v 9v 12v battery (ideally with a fuse or more care )  Just make shure it turns ok 360° under power,no load on wheels with lower voltage ..at 12v if used, it should be strong.  Reverse jump leads to test other direction too.

Ok just a few questions. Can this stuff even fit in the train with the shell on top? What do you mean by it turning 360. 

Spinning and running; the shaft moves 360°.

The shell doesn't need to be on, lay the chassis on its side or put it on blocks.  If the motor is cooked, we are wasting time on the board.

Just make sure the motor spins using power without any trouble. It must be dc to go right to the motor. The board turns track ac to dc before it gets to the motor, so you need dc to bypass the board to test.

Lightly spin 360° a bunch, both directions by hand too as that may reveal an internal snag/hang up you can feel. 

One of the first things I do to a loco *if the shell lighting, etc doesn't have disconnect plugs* is cut and splice the shell wires or add a disconnect plug so I don't need a shell at all (not always mechanically possible to run without a shell, models vary,and never let an antenna wire dangle unprotected by tape. Dont let an antenna touch anything else as a general rule.)

Removing the motor would be needed on some, but I don't think you'll need to.

*the edit

Sorry for so many posts, spellwreck is having fun with m today.  Check the last three for edits... the last one I'm about to do now.

Adriatic posted:

Sorry for so many posts, spellwreck is having fun with m today.  Check the last three for edits... the last one I'm about to do now.

It’s fine your just telling me how to do this. Sounds hard but I’ll take this to consideration.

Not really too hard. Pretty easy if you have alligator clip jumpers. Hardest part is usually having or stacking the batteries. (fresh 9v is my go to or a lantern batt.  @6v or two 6v - to + for 12v makes it easy...( a car battery etc )

Scrap wire inserted into the plug temporarily etc.... You just need to verify the motor spins ok for now. Then  the multi-meter, and maybe soldering iron gets put to use for board exploration ( don't panic! For simplicities sake, the diodes are just a one way check  valves, transistors just tiny relays, and capacitors a holding tank.) 

None of it is really hard, it just gets complicated because there is a lot of items. Focus on the basics and the finer detail can be learned later. It's all pretty logical; and the more basics you learn ,the more you'll realize it.

Ameens "lost post" is right. The "remove one wire" bit was before I saw for sure the motor had a plug.  The goal was isolating the motor.  

Isolating items for tests you can leave at least one connection in place. But two or more in place may lead in a circle thru other items, to the other leg(s) giving false reads (or in this case short out in the board before the motor can even try to use the power)

It depends on how things are connected. Some times it isn't needed, but you have to look and check.

 Mostly it's just as easy to pull a leg or two off the board once the iron is warmed up. 

 And while on my mind, solder wont stick to stainless steel. So stainless tools are my preference. My best come from manicure kits. But the fishing box, the dentist and doc.s all contributed too 😁.  Even SS tweezers work out well. Zircon encrusted is ok too. 😏 (it's not just for dental floss harvesting from your pygmy pony's saddle anymore 🙃)

Adriatic posted:

Ameens "lost post" is right. The "remove one wire" bit was before I saw for sure the motor had a plug.  The goal was isolating the motor.  

Isolating items for tests you can leave at least one connection in place. But two or more in place may lead in a circle thru other items, to the other leg(s) giving false reads (or in this case short out in the board before the motor can even try to use the power)

It depends on how things are connected. Some times it isn't needed, but you have to look and check.

 Mostly it's just as easy to pull a leg or two off the board once the iron is warmed up. 

 And while on my mind, solder wont stick to stainless steel. So stainless tools are my preference. My best come from manicure kits. But the fishing box, the dentist and doc.s all contributed too 😁.  Even SS tweezers work out well. Zircon encrusted is ok too. 😏 (it's not just for dental floss harvesting from your pygmy pony's saddle anymore 🙃)

Ok now that I at least know what’s going on what should I do first and where do I get the tools needed. I want to take this step by step so the first step and stuff needed to complete the first step 

AmeenTrainGuy posted:

Yes, it will. The motor in most modern O-Scale equipment runs on DC the electronic board changes the current that comes from your transformer from AC to DC so that the motor can run. If you apply AC directly to the motor that guarantees your motor will burn out.

But my motor doesn’t work at all so what will this do?

Late to this thread but Trainz has Lionel part 6208613103, the reverse unit for the Docksider, in stock for $23.99. See https://www.trainz.com/product...e-unit-pcb-docksider. 

swede

After posting, I tried the link and it didn't work. I then went to the Trainz website and searched for "Lionel 6208613103 Reverse Unit PCB /Docksider" and was able to get to the proper ad. 

I agree with testing of the motor before making any purchase. Although I have not had the experience, there have been instances when the motor failed or was in failure and caused the board to fail. Mosfets can get extremely hot. The fact that the motor can be isolated by disconnecting a plug makes the testing that much easier.

If TRH988 does not have access to a DC power source to test the motor, or want to rig up a DC battery source as suggested, a spare DC phone charger or something similar can be used.

swede

rrswede posted:

Late to this thread but Trainz has Lionel part 6208613103, the reverse unit for the Docksider, in stock for $23.99. See https://www.trainz.com/product...e-unit-pcb-docksider. 

swede

After posting, I tried the link and it didn't work. I then went to the Trainz website and searched for "Lionel 6208613103 Reverse Unit PCB /Docksider" and was able to get to the proper ad. 

Now way you actually found a part? Wow I thought they stopped I’m so happy. 😃

AmeenTrainGuy posted:

rrswede posted:

Late to this thread but Trainz has Lionel part 6208613103, the reverse unit for the Docksider, in stock for $23.99. See https://www.trainz.com/product...e-unit-pcb-docksider. 

swede

Yeah, this is the route that will most likely be taken. We just want to make sure that it is the board and not the motor.

@TheRoyalHudson988 Yes, the motor is connected by a plug so you won't have to cut anything. Just make sure that the motor is isolated from the board.

Ok so I just in plug it to separate it right? Just asking so it doesn’t break anymore than it needs to

AmeenTrainGuy posted:

Unless you've tested the motor with this same method, we can't tell for certain whether it's broken or not without bypassing the electronics board. The board may have a burnt component, which is why we want to test the motor directly so that we can narrow down what to replace.

Ok I understand