New Challengers...What do you think?

I wonder how the U33C will operate with this major quality control failure of the Challenger.

If a U.P. engine is what you crave, just put a Gilbert "Little 800" on the track, fire her up, savor the smoke and choo-choo and ENJOY.

Rusty,

There is no issue with the coding in the loco as far as I know.
The only issue is that the Legacy base and Cab-2 update will fix an issue with the smoke control. This will be in the next update to be released soon.

Carl

quote:

Originally posted by Carl Tuveson:
Rusty,

There is no issue with the coding in the loco as far as I know.
The only issue is that the Legacy base and Cab-2 update will fix an issue with the smoke control. This will be in the next update to be released soon.

Carl

Hi Carl,

Lionel Ohio told me differently about the engine board encoding a few weeks ago. By the way, the smoke feature worked as it should with my sample with my Legacy base (which has been updated to 1.3 for over a year) with the supplied Legacy engine module.

Thanks,

Bob Bubeck

Bob,

What type of loco did your orange module load?

Steam or Pullmore Steam?

Carl

A friend of mine ran his gray AF UP Challenger today at a show where our club layout was set up. It ran well with TMCC and Odyssey turned off (with it on he had jackrabbit starts). No Legacy to test it with or without orange module, and/or lash-ups, smoke control, steam or steam pulmor or not, standard speeds including One Step, etc, but hopefully others of you with Legacy and these engines can run some tests and help the rest of us understand better what the real situation, shortcomings, and possible solutions are. Thanks. At least his ran OK in TMCC mode. We don't run Legacy at shows and he runs TMCC at home as well. I run TMCC at our shows, but Legacy at home. So far for me only one engine takes full advantage of it -- the Big Boy.

quote:

It ran well with TMCC and Odyssey turned off (with it on he had jackrabbit starts).

Sgaugian,

By my experience, this is the standard problem. This was the issue with my and my friend's samples. Obviously, operations should be at their very best with Legacy (or TMCC) with Odyssey II 'on'. This is the issue for which the code is incorrect, according to Lionel Ohio (via phone coversation, circa, two weeks ago).*

Carl,

During my evaluation, I had focused on the speed control issue which was/is the big bug-a-boo. To my recollection, smoke on my sample was controllable in the usual fashion. What was different compared to other Legacy engines I own (including the AF BB) was that the Challenger scrolling on the top of the Legacy screen was continuous and would not cease to reveal the smoke level setting (off, low, med, high). Conceivably, that could be characteristic of a Pullmore setting. Given the other goofs in these bloody things, it would not be surprising.

Bob Bubeck

 

* Added note: Odyssey II and 'AF speed control' have different responses to Cab-2 offical train speed selections. So, there is no code error, as such, but this might have left the tech at the bench as non plussed as I originally was.

THe second one works with the usual TMCC lergh forward start. I have Northern Pacific.

quote:

Originally posted by killian:
Hoping that Lionel will get everything corrected with the different issues mentioned above I do have one question I would like to ask, has anyone run their challenger in Conventional operation, using just the transformer for running the engine, forward, neutral, backward? If so, has there been any issues, as I run my engines in Conventional only. Thank you.

I have operated mine for about an hour in convential mode, and encounterd no problems. I use an "OTT" controller for the bell and whistle and every worked just fine. The biggest difference is in convential mode the locomotive will slow when going up a grade, or around a curve, where increased drag has an effect. Also it will slow when it is farthest from the wire to the track. It operates just like your traditional Flyer locomotive from the 50's. In command mode the locomotive runs smoothly and at a constance speed no matter the grade, curvature or distance from the track connection.

I picked up my Challenger today (Rio Grande). I have not had a chance to run it yet, but visual inspection shows it to be a beauty.

Question: The instruction manual indicates that it should have come with a vial of smoke fluid, but none was included with mine. Did you guys get smoke fluid?

I did get the little funnel, a coupler, some pullmor tires, and the orange module. No big deal on the missing fluid. I'm just curious if you guys got any. Also, what kind of fluid do you guys prefer? I like the Anormal-1 stuff as it works well and seems to leave less oily residue than some of the stuff I've had.

I hope to get a test track set up this week. I only have the TMCC controller, so I don't expect to have Legacy issues that others have experienced.

Thanks for any feedback,

Craig

quote:

Question: The instruction manual indicates that it should have come with a vial of smoke fluid, but none was included with mine. Did you guys get smoke fluid?

Lionel no longer packs a container of smoke fluid with their locomotives. Too many instances of leakage. Ignor the comment in the instructions.

In addition to Anormal-1, JT Megasteam also works nicely in Lionel fan-driven smoke units.

Hope this helps.

Bob Bubeck

Neither of the two I received had any smoke fluid with them. In addition to a plastic funnel there was a clear plastic pipette with each engine -- folded in half to fit into the styrofoam bay. Did yours come with that too? Hope yours runs well. Still waiting 'til the smoke clears on whether L is going to do anything about Challenger Legacy mode shortcomings before I consider taking a third "swing at the ball".

A friend of mine stopped by with his D&RGW Challenger. It ran very well in Legacy mode with Odyssey ON or OFF. It responded well with smooth slow starts, and performed well with all Standard speeds even One Throttle Step in forward and reverse. All of its sounds functioned, and it smoked heavily (only got to test that briefly). This was great to see and perhaps one of the best running Challengers (particularly in Legacy mode) that I've read about or seen. There were a couple of shortcomings as have been documented by others such as no smoke level control or indication on the Cab2, and no brake sounds when applying the brake, no cab figures, no smoke fluid in the box, and slightly faster than expected Standard speed levels, but over all a keeper to run and enjoy as opposed to send back for repairs or a refund. Wishing you all a joyous holiday season, Merry Christmas, and Happy New Year.

I am glad to hear that his locomotive is running well, as too many produced had flaws. I have over 15 hours of run time on one of mine with TMCC as I do not have Legacy and I am very please with the performance. The locomotive is definitely a keeper!

I added Arttista Figures and I do not miss the brake squeal at all. The Northern I have has more than enough of brake squeal every time it slows around a curve. I only run the smoke on occasion and for only a short time as the amount it produces is irritating after a while.

May smoke rings from American Flyer Locomotives circle your tree and fill the air with Christmas cheer. Merry Christmas to all!

quote:

It ran very well in Legacy mode with Odyssey ON or OFF. It responded well with smooth slow starts, and performed well with all Standard speeds even One Throttle Step in forward and reverse.

Good to hear. What was the momentum setting used, if I may ask?

Bob Bubeck

Bob,
Momentum was set at 4.

I finally got my two challengers last night and gave each a quick test. My UP 3985 seems to work fine. The greyhound has some issues:

When running in command mode, the headlight flashes like the command signal is weak. There is a clicking noise coming from the front drivetrain somewhere, there is an occasional spark that comes from above the rear truck where something is shorting to the chassis, there is something going on with the valve linkage on one side of the rear drivers where it appears to catch on something causing it to jump up and down in it's guide. Finally, it will not run in conventional mode unless the oddesy switch is off.

Not too happy about that list of problems from a brand new loco

I finally got a chance to set up some track today and try out my Challenger and Big Boy. I have TMCC only, but I'm happy to report that both locomotives appeared to function without problems. My basement now reeks of smoke fluid!

While I had the track set up I also put a few of my other locomotives through their paces. I'm still amazed at how well my 1946 Atlantics run. Even with no smoke or choo-choo their silky smooth performance makes me smile every time. I ran a few Lionel diesels for the first time and they were fine. I also ran my Great Northern EP-5 and I must say that I found its sound system to be a bit curious. It seems strange that there would be "idling" sounds on an electric, but maybe it makes sense. The "brake squeal" on deceleration was a bit strange and sounded more like static to me, but overall the engine ran fine. And I could always turn the sound off.

Overall, a fun session.

quote:

Originally posted by Craig Donath:
I also ran my Great Northern EP-5 and I must say that I found its sound system to be a bit curious. It seems strange that there would be "idling" sounds on an electric, but maybe it makes sense. The "brake squeal" on deceleration was a bit strange and sounded more like static to me, but overall the engine ran fine. And I could always turn the sound off.

Overall, a fun session.

The Great Northern EP5's does have a very bizzare sound set and sounds like no electric locomotive I've heard. I've never been able to figure out what it was supposed to represent. It almost sounds like my airbrush air compressor.

I turned the sound off almost immediately.

Rusty

FlyerMike my 3985 had the same problem initially with the sound cutting out around a curve. After I got it back from the repair man it was still not completely fixed so I opened the loco up and gave more slack to the wires leading to the IR sensor. They were too tightly bundled together. Problem solved. However my 3985 front motor stopped working last night. The loco had about seven hours of run time on it. My gray challenger and U33C continue to perform fine.

With these issues I doubt that I would purchase another Lionel made locomotive. I never had these problems with American Models or S-Helper.

Bottom line I want smooth operating performance. I do not need all of the electronics. Yes I like rail sounds but only at a minimal level, and since I only have a handful of Legacy / TMCC locomotives I use conventional transformer control most of the time.

An individual on the yahoo groups recommended I check the wire to the front motor. Sure enough the wire was broke under the shrink wrap, there was not enough slack to permit movement. Everything is fine now. I loosened up the bundle of wires in the loco to prevent future problems!

It's been a while since I tested my locos, but had family issues to deal with. So, put the locomotives at work on a friend's Christmas time layout. The U33 seemed to run fine, although in traditional mode, only had one speed, with my trainmaster control, it was fine. The 3985 ran well, but the coupler doesn't release properly--that is, once released, it won't close, but if you fiddle with it, it will close, but then won't open.

However, the WP would run fine halfway around the layout, and then stalls and jerks  foreward in short bursts, with the firebox glow blinking. By putting it in reverse, it runs backwards fine. Cab talk worked in all engines, as did the smoke units.

So, do I send the WP back to L or to the Dealer? I figure, if L will send me a coupler, I can put that on and save all the shipping expenses.

BUT, it sure sounds to me that L should do a recall on the Challengers to fix the tight wire issue.

The engines sure are nice lookers!

S'

David D.

Have read previous comments,

 

Received my Clinchfield Challenger when everyone else did. Had several minor issues, front coupler upside down, right excentric on right front driver loose, no figures, no brake sounds. After 30 minutes each run-in in forward and reverse on rollers it smoothed out and sped up considerably. Tried engine on layout without tender. No problems. Attached tender, front tender truck derailed in all right hand turns. Smoothed crescent shaped hole at attachment post, removed and re installed the three washers so their smooth sides faced correctly. Engine and tender now tracked perfectly. My layout, the Tennessee Central, features 350 ft of Am S Gauge code 172 flex track on two levels with 4 mainlines and turntable-yard area. There are 11 Am S Gauge turnouts with tortoise machines and 13 Am Flyer 720A turnouts. Minimum Radii curves on track 3 & 4 are 30 and 27.5 inches. My layout uses TMCC and Legacy Cab 1 and Cab 2 controls. The Legacy signal is fed through capacitors to both rails. I have 7 SC2 switch accessory controllers, 2 Block Power controllers (BPC's), 5  Track Power Controllers (TPC's). I use 4 12B, 1 9B, and 3 8B am Flyer transformers to power the layout. All trains, turnouts, and Am Flyer operating accessories are controlled from the CAB 1 or 2. The common ground system is used. After correcting the initial problems I have run the Challenger for over two months (over 120 hours) now and I consider it the best operating engine I have ever owned. this includes nearly all Gilbert Link coupler era engines, most S Helper and nearly all Am Models engines. It operates well in conventional, TMCC, and Legacy modes. However, I have found that it operates best in Legacy, with speed control on, and momentum set to M5 or above. Smoke. sounds, and control are awsome. Real Rail speeds are too fast as they are with the Big Boy. By the way, in my opinion this engine is so superior to the Big Boy in appearance and operation that there is no comparison. I feel that Lionel will correct many of these minor problems with their next upgrade module to the Legacy system. If yours has more serious problems that you cannot fix I would return it for repair. It is too good an engine to just give up on. (the UP's seem to have the most problems)

 

Now to the U33C. Mine is the Southern Pacific. This is the first modern S Gauge engine I have ever received that has operated as it should right out of the box. My only issue is that when first started up for the first five minutes or so the sound may momentarily cut off. It is then fine. As this engine does not have a battery back-up I wonder if it relies on a capacitor being charged to power the sound during minor current interuptions. To my knowledge this engine does not have a speed control system and none was advertised.  Maybe Carl can confirm this. My engine has none of the issues mentioned earlier on the forum. In summary I think that with these two engines Lionel has significantly raised the bar in their dedication to the American Flyer Line and to S Gauge in general.

 

Regards,

 

Tom 

Hello all, I would love to hear updates on the Challengers, as it's been a few months since. I'm considering a NP version and would operate under TMCC. Hope they're running well and being enjoyed!

 

Thanks, Joe

~Long Live Lionel~

Up to this point after the repair to a couple of wires both of my Challengers have been performing flawlessly.

I would appreciate your help with a few questions I have about running my new AF Gray Challenger (6-48084) with a Legacy command base and Cab2.  First of all it only works if I apply track power all at once (i.e. with a toggle switch for 0 to 16.5VAC in an instant).   If I gradually apply track power it fails to respond to the throttle (does not move), but everything else works (lights, sounds, etc.).  Is that normal?  If not, what could be wrong?  What do you recommend I do about this?  My other engines including a Big Boy and TMCC Mikados and Pacifics work fine with this Legacy set up when track power is applied gradually.   This Challenger works fine too with gradual power and TMCC, but with Legacy you have to hit it with full power all at once.  It works fine then by the way.

 

Secondly, I noticed there are no levels of smoke volume control like with the Big Boy - - just (-) and (+) for off and on, and neither of them work unless I first press AUX1.  Is that normal?  If not, what could be wrong and what do you recommend I do about it? 

 

Lastly, the front truck valve gear sparks when I back the engine up through combination-switches (S-Trax with a 5” straight section between them).  You can see where a high point in the valve gear apparatus is slightly scorched from having contacted the chassis at the tightest part of the maneuver.  Is that normal? 

 

Thanks in advance for your help

Here's some additional information since I tested the engine further and communicated with the very knowledgeable and helpful Carl Tuveson

-       When I run it with a Legacy command base, Cab2, and a TPC400 and apply track power slowly (in about 10 seconds or more) the engine will not move, but if I apply track power in 5 seconds or less it works fine.  In both cases all of the lights and sounds work, but if I apply track power slowly it fails to response to throttle.

-       The orange fob programs it as a Pullmor Steam engine, but with that there are no smoke volume, injector, or blowdown icons on the Cab2.  When I changed it to Steam instead, those icons show up correctly.  Why is the factory setting Pullmore Steam?  (BTW, with Pullmore Steam the smoke unit +/- do not work unless you first press AUX1). 

-       The left rear valve linkage above the steam chest and primary drive piston droops down and gets caught in the connecting rod.  Maybe the small piston shaft is too short or some segment of the linkage not properly formed.

In the long run, I would give my two a solid 7.5 out of 10.  They run well, sound good and smoke like mad.  My only nit-picks would be a loud cherry switch on one of them and some Legacy gremlins that are probably from my outdated software.  Here is a pic and a couple of clips showing one in action.

 

 

Living with my greyhound Challenger has been and continues to be very enjoyable and (now) trouble-free. Operations are generally satisfying with Legacy. It is more sensitive to dirt on track than previous Lionel-AF and Gilbert AF engines and the occasional 'vagueries' encountered using Gilbert sectional track. The solution to these problems is to keep the track clean, to swap out any offending sections, and to pay some renewed attention to one's trackwork. My sample will negotiate any Gilbert turnout (or combination thereof) on my layout.

 

Other than that, I firmly stand behind my bottom line summary from before (see above). Under Legacy control the Big Boy (with Odyssey II) has smoother response to train speed selections and transitions using Cab-2 and smoother very slow speed control. The Big Boy's sounds are obviously and unquestionably of higher quality, too. Equally obvious - the Challenger is the much better model.

 

Glad I own one, but still some room for improvement.

 

Bob Bubeck

Just bought the 3985 Challenger.  Wish they would have made the black one with smoke shields in nos. 3967 or 3943 - the only black coal burning UP challengers with smoke shields (or at least made the 3710 and the 3977 with oil tenders).  It seems like to maximize sales some sort of separately applied insert could have been made for the tender - one for a coal load and one to make it into an oil tender.

I believe the delays encountered in releasing the Challengers torpedoed the oil conversions.

 

Rusty

Maybe the manufacturers should consider some type of modular construction for the tender load like a coal load or oil deck that could be slid into place in the manufacturing process.  There are plenty of add on detail parts these days so it would not seem all that difficult to make a deck for an oil tender or a coal load to add, as appropriate, as part of the assembly process.

 

Challengers 3

I agree with your assessments Bob about the sound and performance differences between the Big Boy and the Challengers.  The Big Boy definitely has better speed control and the whistle IMHO sounds better.  I like both locomotives and I am waiting on the next articulated offering from Lionel. 

Portland Rose, thanks for the comparison video!

 

Joe

~Long Live Lionel~

Quick update on my gray Challenger - the third one I tried after the first two were lemons and went back.  After adding a spacer under the front truck and inserting chopped straight pins under the rear upper push rod linkages (used to sag down from cantilevered design) it is level, doesn't spark when run in reverse through combination turn-outs, and without linkage that pops at slow speeds.  In fact it runs so well it is one of my favorites to take to shows and run at home - smokes like a five alarm fire as well.  Looks great with AM UP streamlined passenger cars with a couple Flyonel vista dome cars thrown in for good measure.  Sure I wish it had brake squeal and a crew, but finally I can honestly say I'm glad I bought one and persisted until it worked right. 

Aren't they supposed to work right wen you buy them? Silly me

I would buy one but do not want something that does not work right.  There have been many complaints.

Yes.