New Layout Room

I have 3 passenger trains and 5 Freight trains. I would like to incorporate the b-54 bridge I bought and the passenger station and platforms from Crescent Loco works. I have never built a layout of this size. so I now feel alittle lost.

It is a little difficult to just jump in to your design...what is the 36x62 notch out? Chimney?  Stairs?  It would make a difference regarding the 36x58 space you indicate is available...if a landing for stairs....or a "dead end corner by the chimney"...get my point?

Where and how do you enter the room? 

Would you be comfortable with a duck under or a bridge of some sort?

All that aside, I am not a "classic runner"...I prefer a fair amount of prototypical freight switching.  I have a provision on my 19ftx15ft layout for continuous run, but do not plan to use it during regular "freight operation" sessions.  But if guests drop by who are non railroaders...at least I can "run a train" and show off the layout.

Since freight car movements are important to me, my scenery will be a lot of building flats against the wall...and a few full "3-D busildings" on the peninsula.

So, most of the layout design will depend on things YOU like. 

Such as:

Do you like to follow your train around the layout, or do you like to stand in one spot and run?  I prefer a shelf style vs a "table".  What do you think you would like?

Open country vs rural town vs urban industrial.  If you kind of like two of those options, consider using one side of the room for one large scene with a transition to the second scene on the opposite wall...such as small rural community with just a pass track and a couple of spurs to a feed elevator, team track and maybe a fuel dealer and lumber retailer (considering Atlas/Walthers structures and/or MTH structures and Lionel elevator)...then on the "other wall" simply have "the city and yard".  Maybe a small handful of tracks along the back wall servicing the warehouses and local manufacturing facility...with a yard between that and the aisle.

Do you like to stop the train and set out cars...a lot? Or occasionally?  You can keep busy for a couple of hours just switching a half dozen industries in that "urban scene"...then "run your train" over the mainline (one lap, multiple laps, whatever) to switch the small town and "run your train" back to the yard to break it down, put some cars on storage tracks or on a local track to be switched out by the next day's local switch crew.  Or you can just run thru to see the trains move thru scenery...

So, you need to decide..."around the wall shelf with a linear track plan"....or a "train board with lots of routes and loops and such".

Here is how I started...and some of "why" I did it this way:

I decided what was important "to me".  I also knew that 99.9% of the time, it would be "just me"...so the layout was built "for me". 

I measured from my arm pit to the floor...knocked off a little so I would not drag my arm flab over the track, cars and switches...so my bench work is approximately 53 inches above the carpeted floor.  (PERSONAL COMFORT WAS AN ISSUE!)  I also have baseboard electric heat and a window air conditioner. My layout is in a 16x20 custom built on site storage building.  The AC is in the only window and even that is UNDER the layout shelf. As you step up into the room, you simply duck your head and shoulder and take one small step into the room...the shelf over the door is narrower than the rest of the room.  I realize that may be an issue for some, but even with my LARGE girth and my arthritis, I am able to get into the room without pain and without bumping my head or back on the bench work.

I hate tight radius.  The overhang of rail cars going around curves simply ruins the visual effect.  I probably should have gone 2 rail, but elected to get the more "plentiful" options in 3 rail...all my turnouts/switches and all my curved track are O-72 radius.  I used track planning software to let me know everything would fit...had it not, I was prepared to use a limited number of O-54 in critical spaces...but I was lucky and planned ahead.  I was also able to arrange to view all curves from "inside" the curve so the "overhang" that bothers me so much is not a factor.

Truth in advertising...my layout is not functional at this point.  I pulled all the track and did some "prep work" that I should have done first...and now, I might pick up some Homasote to replace some "patch in pieces" for a smoother surface.  But when I leave my current job this Spring, I will spend a minimum of one day each week on the layout.

My suggestion to you is to think beyond "what I did before but simply bigger" unless you really liked what you had in your previous layout.  Consider layout height, floor covering, HVAC, lighting, layout access.  THEN think about track plan and scenery.

Originally, I was going to have one small rural town and a nice run thru some rural area with a rock crusher. (My part of Oklahoma is NOT coal country.)  But I realized that even that would not give me the traffic intensity I wanted.  I have figured that I ought to be able to spend a little more than 2 REAL hours working a full "day" or "shift" on my industrial switching layout...I hope to move around 12-20 cars in "a day/a shift".  My yard is small (main, runaround, two "working tracks" to hold cars or to sort cars for deliver to the layout or for return to the main yard.  Beyond that, there is only one other runaround track...so that will get a fair amount of use during operating sessions.

In case you are wondering, my layout is a very fictionalized version of reality...I am modeling the 5 mile long ATSF switching district that stretches from north-south mainline from Kansas City to Galveston in Oklahoma City that accesses the Okla City National Stockyards and the adjacent packing district.  Since I grew up loving the ATSF zebra stripe paint, I am modeling 1963ish, the end of the paint scheme and about the end of live stock shipments in/out of the Stockyards via rail.  Refer cars still moved for a few more years, but within 12-15 years most of the packing plants were closed.

That is my approach to your new space...consider the possibilities...consider the things that you liked and disliked about your old layout...consider how to access the distance across a large board compared to a 30 inch shelf around the room.  That shelf does not have to be a straight line 30 inches wide, either...you can always have a bump out to allow for an "aisle side industry" or other mini scene.  A duck under does not have to be a "duck under" but could be a "sit in an office chair and roll into the layout."  You have a wealth of possibilities... 

I hope something in the above helps more than it confuses.

this is the loft layout. not to scale but you get the idea I have a window and 3 doors for 3 separate attic spaces. then one whole wall is railings open to the rest of the house. (sound might be an issue. with my other layout I enjoyed running the trains continuously. problem being 6x10 was short loops maybe more curving around instead of straight shots. I have had 2 layouts in the past year both had there goods both had there bads. good thing is I enjoy the building of the layout so it's all good. first image is the room now second one is the layout plan for the last layout and the third is the first layout.

Given the new space and how difficult it looks like it will be to modify the current 6x10 layout, I think your dad is right, scrap the old and start fresh. I also think Tony gave you a lot to consider. Judging from the photos though, did you expand that 6x10 into more of a 10x10? It sure looks like a lot larger than 6x10.

In any case, the new space appears to by 10x15 with a notch. It looks like there is 36" of access on the right, bottom and in the notch on the left. That gives you more flexibility than if it were an enclosed room. Still, it's kind of a difficult space. My first inclination was to try a horseshoe-type layout assuming a ~36" reach:

Unfortunately, adding the aisle limits you to O42 curves for loops on the left peninsula, O54 on the right and O31 above the notch. So, I then looked at a table layout, also assuming a ~36" reach:

As you can see, I added a 24" access aisle along the back and a small 24"X24" notch in the bottom center. This opened up more space to larger curves, but still limits some areas to O31 (upper left) and O54 (peninsulas). The O54 could be a non-issue if you used the notch at the bottom for a lift-out bridge. The O31 could also be a non-issue if you did another lift-out section in the upper left. The space ends up being 8x12 with a 3x5 addition and you could expand this by using access hatches instead of the aisle along the top. I'm just not limber enough anymore to climb under a layout to get to an access hatch to deal with a problem.

I don't know if these help, but I wanted to "see" the space. I'd be inclined to start designing a table layout with/without the top aisle and see where that gets me. That seems more in line with your current layout design vs the loop2loop of your first layout. I'm designing a loop2loop with a connecting lift-out across the aisle in my 12x13 space because mine is an enclosed bedroom without all the access you have.

my second layout never got to have the yard area put on yet that was future expansion LOL.  this is my old layout

That explains it then. I hate to see all that work go to waste, so you'll have to decide if it can be salvaged. It'll be easy enough to attach modules to fill the new space, but I'm not sure how easy it will be to add expansion tracks and make things "fit" aesthetically. Good luck!

one thought I had was buld it in a big square 12x10 with the little 3 ft leg then build support legs up about 7 3/4 of an inch to put the old layout on top of the new layout. then I can have tunnels maybe subway under my old layout kinda like this .

Just don't forget about access. Most people can only reach about 36" and that decreases with height. Of course, that can be overcome with access hatches, but those can get old, especially during the landscaping phase.

reaching across the 6x10 at a table height of 36 inch's is tough I made it so I could walk or sit on top of the layout the last time. but that was still tough to do. I was thinking this time lowering it abit to something like 24 inches better viewing for the granddaughter and better ease in working on it reaching over and such then put access panels in for the really tough area's. this time I'm not going to rush it I want it to be more of furniture than layout. we will see what I come up with.

Well, change is not absent from your life. I suggest that you use the 1st and the second layout together. Use L-Girder construction around the perimeter and meld in the second or most recent layout. Track new has elevation on right side to then join to elevated area of old and then return to new. Lower level can join to left at deck height.

Although it seems like a larger space, it still is an 048 & 036 kind of space with perhaps some easements with larger radius curves.

A nice fascia board and a skirt for a finished look is all you need.

I am not sure about the sight angles from the home, but I don't think you'll see much of the trains. All skirt and fascia.

30" for a height would be a good compromise. The grandchild can stand on a stool (like mine do) for now. They grow quickly and by 8 years old, 30" is still good.

Here is a conceptualization of my "use both". I hope the figure in the original post represented the usable train area. Not meant as a track plan, but to visualize to the space usage.

your right moonman but with 5 kids age's are 26,20,18,12,12 and a granddaughter at 2 life is never boring. the 20 year old thought it was a good idea to get married to her babies daddy. would fix all her issue's the ran off one day didn't tell anyone and got married at the courthouse. that was Feb 7th since I have guardianship of her daughter she left her here with me. she finally called last sunday wanting to come home and get a divorce. Kids now a days so I had to remove the layout out of the spare room in the basement since my father moved in also in January and took the other spare room. so the layout gets moved to the loft instead. I once had a friend say my house is on the verge of caos all the time when the kids were little. not so much anymore. but anyways. I have been working on the layout plan. thinking lowest level about 30 inch's off the floor which would give me enough room to crawl under for wiring and coming through access panels. but it will also be built strong enough to walk on. here's what I came up with tonight very busy I think but would give a lot of viewing while running I think. I attached the scarm file since I know you like to play with them also.

I like your changes J. By my calculation you have the capability to run 7 trains unattended. That's pretty impressive for the space, at least to me. I like how you kept the small space at the top simple with just a single track and a few roads/buildings. The only thing really missing is a yard. The only concern I have is access to the 2 switches along the back (I know, broken record ).

It looks like there might be enough room beneath the road to make part of it a 24"x24" pop-out. That would let you reach the switch and other track on the blue line as well as the spurs on the red line.

The other switch is on the purple line. If you extend the hidden loop coming out of the spurs on the red line further to the bottom, you could easily add an access hatch in the middle of it and the purple line above it. That would let you reach all those tracks along the back.

Also, looking at the 3D image, I believe there are 5 tunnels on the back and it doesn't appear that SCARM completed (covered) them. I assume your old layout is a tabletop and the tunnels are fully enclosed, so I don't know how you access them now if there is a derailment inside. I favor cookie-cutter style construction, so there is always access from beneath. Have you not had any problems in them or is access really a non-issue?

Thank you that's what I was hoping to hear. someone looking at it and giving more Idea's as for the old layout I never had and issue with derailment in the backside tunnel. I did have one stop for no reason back there but the sides were and are still open so I just reached in to clear the train.with the board 6 ft I could reach 3 from either side so it was a non issue. but with the new layout it might become an Issue. so need to figure that out. it might be a simple cut the plywood below the tunnel out for access. I like the idea of extending the hidden loop of the figure 8. that will be done shortly here, I was also thinking for future. maybe adding a hidden yard area under the old layout part. time to add a few changes. I'll post updates shortly. I did go last night and bought the 3 1x4 12ft and 7 1x4 10 ft to build the table out of. so I can get the old layout back together and put in place since that part isn't changing much.

4 access panels and extended the hidden loop.

table work started. first photo new use of a MTH box that's my granddaughter inside there .  the next 3 photos are of the new table and the old layout spliced back together and leaning against the railing awaiting the table to be done.

Looks good. It's always great to start construction and I'm glad you found out a way to recycle your old layout. Obviously, you've been pretty happy with it and didn't want to give it up. The biggest problem for me is I can't start construction on my layout until my daughter/granddaughter move out and that could be early next year or as late as next fall, if she moves out at all. She'll get her teaching certificate in December and then it's a matter of finding a job. Because it will be in the middle of the school year, getting a permanent job may not happen until the 2015-2016 school year starts or even later. So, I'm in a holding pattern and it sure is frustrating. That means I have to live vicariously through you and others. I look forward to watching your progress.

my daughter is the reason for the move of the layout it's funny what we do for our kids . my home has 5 bedrooms and 2 spared bedrooms in the basement. I was in one of the spare rooms in the basement was thinking about taking a wall down to make a 12x23 room for a train room in the basement but in January my father came to live with us so he took the 12x14 spare room in the basement. and turned the 9x12 room into a bathroom so much for my 12x23 train room so I was limited to the 11x11 spare room. and on Feb 7th my daughter ran off and got married. 2 months later she calls and says she wants to come home. so I loose the 11x11 room so the loft has been acquired which has it's own set of issues. with the grand daughter here after 9 I can't run trains cause she would never sleep she loves trains.

Daughter got divorced a few years ago and while she didn't have to move back, we asked her to so we could help with the granddaughter (now 7) and she could go to college. We travel for 2-3 months at a time twice a year, so it's worked out pretty well for all of us. Once she graduates and then gets a teaching position, we'll visit the issue of them moving out at some point. With her studies, etc., they pretty much keep to their bedrooms, but that won't be able to continue. So, she'll probably want to find her own place and then I can get serious about planning a layout. If that doesn't work out, I'll either do something in the garage or just give up the hobby. I only have one MTH Christmas passenger train with the remote/TIU so far, so it's not like I have a lot invested and I'm sure I can sell what I have easy enough, but I'm sure I'll find a place to put some kind of layout. I haven't given up the idea of moving to G-Scale either.

I thought about g scale also I have just under an acher of land I figured I could do a real good g scale layout trees a creek and around the pool but the thought of track outside scares me .

todays progress

for those of you that are wondering what the plan is here is the scarm snapshot

Just got to wondering, have you given any thought at all to connecting the red Figure 8 to the blue line? Even if you only when in and had to back out, it would let you swap trains for some variety once, especially if you add a yard to the blue line at some point.

what do you think of this

May I also suggest to look into adding another switch to the left of the ones you added, where the red curve is near the blue curve. This way a train can enter the figure 8 and stay in it for a few laps and then leave it w/o having to reverse.

added the switch to the lower side of the figure 8 I was trying to keep switches out of the tunnels tho but in this case I don't feel it will be an issue with it open underneath the top portion of the layout

I just got back from the commissary at Luke AFB and as soon as I saw the first photo, my question was going to be about adding the 2nd switch, but BigBoy beat me to it.

I'm a little leery of having the 2nd switch hidden, but I can see why you wouldn't want to add another one near the 1st, especially since you moved the spurs.

Now, I don't want to complicate things further, but I feel I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that if you extended the middle spur to connect with the lower part of the Figure 8, you'd have a reversing loop where you could turn trains. It looks like a switch on the curve would connect right up. Granted, you'd have to back them up to turn them again, but I like being able to turn a train without having to lift it off the layout.

Along that line, I could also see doing something with the small extension at the top. The left hand section might be able to be turned into a Wye, but the right-most crossover would need to be moved, perhaps to the bottom section.

Like I said, I'm not trying to complicate things, just offering food for thought.