New Lionel 21" Amtrak passenger cars for my 2 rail

Did you look for the Atlas CZ Amtrak cars, they came in 2 rail

I talked with Scott Mann in Chicago and he said the reservations aren't that strong for the Amfleet cars as he isn't getting 3 rail orders.  I assume that is due to them settling for the non-scale cars.   People are asking him about the Viewliners but he questions if he will get enough orders to spend the time need just preparing to throw it out there.  I think they would sell if he beat Lionel and MTH to the punch with their non-scale cars.

Who knows, if Amfleet reservations pick up they could still happen.

People are asking him about the Viewliners but he questions if he will get enough orders to spend the time need just
 preparing to throw it out there. I think they would sell if he beat Lionel and MTH to the punch with their non-scale cars.

IMHO, Scott maybe right as the Viewliners you only have sleepers, diners,and Baggage. NO coaches and only ONE Window Observation car if one were to stick strickly to scale.

clem k posted:

Did you look for the Atlas CZ Amtrak cars, they came in 2 rail

all I see now are domes and baggage cars. I do want to get a baggage from Atlas. I thought I would have to get the 2 car set from Lionel for the others.

Des Plaines Hobbies had 4 car sets at Chicago for $435 a set.    The sets were different so you may find what you want.

Morning Joe; I have a set of the Lionel 21" cars that I converted to 2 rail. While you can use NWSL wheel sets I choose to use MTH streamline 2 Rail trucks. The reason was the trucks were not expensive and I did not have to fabricate a 2 Rail electrical pickup. I did have to drill a new mounting hole for the MTH trucks as they are different from the Lionel trucks.

It's a simple matter of disassembling the car and removing the trucks. The wiring attaches to each side of the pickups on the MTH trucks and the installation of Kadee couplers will require the drilling of new screw holes. While I had my cars apart I dressed up the interiors with a bit of paint work and craft paper carpets, the car was then detailed out with seated passengers.

The LED lighting system is nice, beware it will take a minute or so for the system to charge and reach full brightness. I am even considering using the Lionel LED system in other brands of passenger cars to eliminate incandescent lighting.

The set I have are the "Texas Special" cars and are nicely done. I believe these cars are of the Budd prototype. The one exception is these cars have the full body end diaphrams which are incorrect but can be easily modified to the correct walk way type. I also converted a "Southern " set using the same process for a friend.

These are nice cars at a fair price and can easily be converted for 2 rail operation. One last note, the dinner sound car is set up for TMCC control and operation so it's operation will depend on your control system. I hope this will give you a heads up on your conversion. Best Regards: Gene  

Thank you!

BTW, I run DCS and could add the TMCC signal but I don't. I just use it when I change over the engines to TMCC equipped.

I just would use the sound car like I do with the tank cars w/sounds just for their track noises.

VGN64 posted:

I talked with Scott Mann in Chicago and he said the reservations aren't that strong for the Amfleet cars as he isn't getting 3 rail orders.  I assume that is due to them settling for the non-scale cars.   People are asking him about the Viewliners but he questions if he will get enough orders to spend the time need just preparing to throw it out there.  I think they would sell if he beat Lionel and MTH to the punch with their non-scale cars.

Who knows, if Amfleet reservations pick up they could still happen.

The magic number for those Amfleets is 1500 cars. I have 3 reserved in 3 rail, and they may be adding Phase VI, which could save the project.

The Lionel cars do appear to be Budd cars as they are fluted. Amtrak did not have many fluted Pullman-Std cars, especially not in Phase I.

I wonder if Scott added the Northeast Regional scheme would that help.  I see 8 of those cars go thru Lynchburg VA twice a day every day.  The Crescent has the Amtrak paint schemes which at one time or another had all the paint schemes.  I would order more cars with the Northeast Regional scheme.

VGN64 posted:

I wonder if Scott added the Northeast Regional scheme would that help.  I see 8 of those cars go thru Lynchburg VA twice a day every day.  The Crescent has the Amtrak paint schemes which at one time or another had all the paint schemes.  I would order more cars with the Northeast Regional scheme.

 

The most likely to help is Phase VI. Phase V would be an idea, but there's a limited market for it. The Northeast Regional scheme you speak of is likely Phase VI with Northeast Regional branding on the Cafe car. 

For anyone who needs help with paint schemes, please see this thread: https://ogrforum.com/...-for-the-amtrak-guys

Running Heritage cars with Horizon coaches is not prototypical, but if you want to do that, nobody's stopping you. However, if you want to model a prototype consist, it's not too difficult to model an ex-UP Rainbow train. Amtrak had a huge amount of UP equipment, especially E units, due to how well UP cared for their equipment. You could get away with an MTH Amtrak E8 A-B-A with an additional UP B unit. The rest of the consist could be a mix of GGD, Atlas, and Lionel equipment. There was also a large concentration of BN equipment, so BN passenger cars would work well. I'd say try a mix of GGD SP 10-6 sleepers, a GGD Amtrak Great Dome, Lionel/Importer UP Equipment, and Atlas CZ equipment.

Does anyone know which NWSL 2-rail wheelsets work in the Lionel passenger trucks? I figure I might as well 2-rail the cars while I have them apart to upgrade the interiors. I'm thinking about going with batteries in the baggage car to power the lights and the generator sounds.

AGHRMatt posted:

Does anyone know which NWSL 2-rail wheelsets work in the Lionel passenger trucks? I figure I might as well 2-rail the cars while I have them apart to upgrade the interiors. I'm thinking about going with batteries in the baggage car to power the lights and the generator sounds.

I'd go with batteries for everything tbh because it eliminates any chance of flickering completely (yes I know this is 2 rail but still).

VGN64 posted:

I talked with Scott Mann in Chicago and he said the reservations aren't that strong for the Amfleet cars as he isn't getting 3 rail orders.  I assume that is due to them settling for the non-scale cars.   People are asking him about the Viewliners but he questions if he will get enough orders to spend the time need just preparing to throw it out there.  I think they would sell if he beat Lionel and MTH to the punch with their non-scale cars.

Who knows, if Amfleet reservations pick up they could still happen.

 If he would do Amfleet II cars, they would appeal to a lot more people (why I haven't ordered any) and I would also want Viewliners. To me his best bet would be Superliners.

Overland did superliners.  I saw a stack of 8 or so at Chicago this past weekend.  How much difference is there between Amfleet I and Amfleet II cars?

I know a big spotting difference externally are the presence of doors at each end of the car vs only one end.

VGN64 posted:

Overland did superliners.  I saw a stack of 8 or so at Chicago this past weekend.  How much difference is there between Amfleet I and Amfleet II cars?

 

Overland's Superliners weren't very good and weren't anything special. 

As for the difference between Amfleet I and Amfleet II, there isn't much difference, with the exception of a door/vestibule omission and interior details. But we cannot go crazy here as Scott has had bad luck with Amtrak. The Amfleet Is would prove Amtrak sells. We would have to prove to Scott that Amtrak sells before anything like Superliners, Viewliners, and Amfleet IIs happen.

The Amfleet I cars are only used on corridor routes while the IIs are used on long distance trains. 

As for OMI Superliners, I haven't seen any for sale in a couple years. 

Will Ebbert posted:

The Amfleet I cars are only used on corridor routes while the IIs are used on long distance trains. 

As for OMI Superliners, I haven't seen any for sale in a couple years. 

This is generally the case, but on some occasions, Amfleet Is have found their way onto long distance trains. For example, they were heavily used on The Reno Fun Train.

I see the OMI Superliners pop up on eBay every once in a while. Not too horribly difficult to find compared to their 3 rail K-Line counterparts. I would prefer someone make Pullman Std. Superliner Is as they have not been made yet in O scale. The only Superliners that have been made are Bombardier Superliner IIs. But again, we have to prove to Scott Amtrak sells. Can't go crazy with Amfleet IIs until the 1500 car mark is reached.

GenesisFan99 posted:

VGN64 posted:

Overland did superliners.  I saw a stack of 8 or so at Chicago this past weekend.  How much difference is there between Amfleet I and Amfleet II cars?

 

Overland's Superliners weren't very good and weren't anything special. 

As for the difference between Amfleet I and Amfleet II, there isn't much difference, with the exception of a door/vestibule omission and interior details. But we cannot go crazy here as Scott has had bad luck with Amtrak. The Amfleet Is would prove Amtrak sells. We would have to prove to Scott that Amtrak sells before anything like Superliners, Viewliners, and Amfleet IIs happen.

I have concerns with your logic that more reservations for Amfleet I would convince Scott to offer modern cars like Superliners & Viewliners.

Following past discussions on these forums & after reviewing Scott’s new product announcements, I am led to believe that Scott will continue to offer obsolete / vintage models. So, if Amfleet I gets good reservations, he might just continue offering old models, perhaps a repeat run of old models. As a disclaimer, I might add that I have made exceptions & reserved / purchased Golden Gate Depot, double-decker cars in the past but Amfleet cars do not meet that criteria either.

I am not going to reserve Amfleet 1. I will vote with my wallet & wait for modern cars like Superliners & Viewliners & advice others who are waiting for modern cars to do the same.

These are just my opinion,

Thanks,

Naveen

This may be a hobby to us but it is a business to the manufactures/importers.  They will produce what will sell and they judge that by the reservations made.  Each of us has our likes and it's only when we order those likes does it make sense for the Sunsets, MTHs, Lionels, etc to produce these items.

naveenrajan posted:

I have concerns with your logic that more reservations for Amfleet I would convince Scott to offer modern cars like Superliners & Viewliners.

Following past discussions on these forums & after reviewing Scott’s new product announcements, I am led to believe that Scott will continue to offer obsolete / vintage models. So, if Amfleet I gets good reservations, he might just continue offering old models, perhaps a repeat run of old models. As a disclaimer, I might add that I have made exceptions & reserved / purchased Golden Gate Depot, double-decker cars in the past but Amfleet cars do not meet that criteria either.

I am not going to reserve Amfleet 1. I will vote with my wallet & wait for modern cars like Superliners & Viewliners & advice others who are waiting for modern cars to do the same.

These are just my opinion,

Thanks,

Naveen

It's not that they would convince Scott to offer modern Amtrak cars, it's just that if the Amfleet Is don't get enough reservations we won't see any chance of additional modern Amtrak cars. Very few Amtrak offerings from Scott have sold well. For example, the Amtrak El Capitan set sold something like 5 sets in total. 

Scott will always offer older sets, that's what sells well for him. I did not mean to suggest that Scott would not offer older sets.

I have a feeling less people are interested in modeling early Amtrak. Probably more folks out there modeling present day than the 1970s. My $0.02

GenesisFan99 posted:

naveenrajan posted:

I have concerns with your logic that more reservations for Amfleet I would convince Scott to offer modern cars like Superliners & Viewliners.

Following past discussions on these forums & after reviewing Scott’s new product announcements, I am led to believe that Scott will continue to offer obsolete / vintage models. So, if Amfleet I gets good reservations, he might just continue offering old models, perhaps a repeat run of old models. As a disclaimer, I might add that I have made exceptions & reserved / purchased Golden Gate Depot, double-decker cars in the past but Amfleet cars do not meet that criteria either.

I am not going to reserve Amfleet 1. I will vote with my wallet & wait for modern cars like Superliners & Viewliners & advice others who are waiting for modern cars to do the same.

These are just my opinion,

Thanks,

Naveen

It's not that they would convince Scott to offer modern Amtrak cars, it's just that if the Amfleet Is don't get enough reservations we won't see any chance of additional modern Amtrak cars. Very few Amtrak offerings from Scott have sold well. For example, the Amtrak El Capitan set sold something like 5 sets in total. 

Scott will always offer older sets, that's what sells well for him. I did not mean to suggest that Scott would not offer older sets.

I was referring your earlier statement, “We would have to prove to Scott that Amtrak sells before anything like Superliners, Viewliners, and Amfleet IIs happen”. I like modern Amtrak cars. What assurances do I have of getting Superliners or Viewliners made if I played a part in making the Amfleet I project successful by reserving some? As others have stated, Golden Gate Depot is a business & would continue to offer models of obsolete cars as they are in demand. More Amfleet I reservations might help you in getting your favorite car made but unlikely to get Golden Gate Depot to offer Superliners or Viewliners.

These are just my opinion,

Thanks,

Naveen

Naveen, 

I meant by that statement that Scott would likely not consider doing modern Amtrak equipment if the Amfleet Is do not sell. It's not about buying the Amfleet Is so that Scott will make the other cars, it's just that if the Amfleet Is are a no-go, the other cars are a no-go for certain. Proving Amtrak sells with the Amfleet Is would allow for Scott to be more open-minded to Amtrak products, that's all. Doesn't mean he would make them, but would ease his mind about considering Amtrak products.

GenesisFan99 posted:

Naveen, 

I meant by that statement that Scott would likely not consider doing modern Amtrak equipment if the Amfleet Is do not sell. It's not about buying the Amfleet Is so that Scott will make the other cars, it's just that if the Amfleet Is are a no-go, the other cars are a no-go for certain. Proving Amtrak sells with the Amfleet Is would allow for Scott to be more open-minded to Amtrak products, that's all. Doesn't mean he would make them, but would ease his mind about considering Amtrak products.

As much as I like modern cars, I don’t expect Golden Gate Depot to offer them anytime soon. My plan is to wait until Scott has run out of choices for models of obsolete passenger cars or reruns of E / F units. Then if he still wants to import O-Scale models, he might have to reconsider less popular models like Superliners & Viewliners but offer them in brass like he did for the Great Dome cars to make up for the smaller run.

Meanwhile on the freight car side, Atlas-O & Lionel keep offering modern choices like the Autoracks, Mill Gondolas, Gunderson cars & intermodal containers to keep me spending as long as it could take Golden Gate Depot to offer models of modern passenger cars.

Also, I had occasionally seen Superliners from Overland Models on E-Bay but none of the listings I had seen, had any interiors. So I would still reserve Superliners, if another importer offered them.

These are just my opinion,

Thanks,

Naveen

Originally posted by Naveen:

Then if he still wants to import O-Scale models, he might have to reconsider less popular models like
 Superliners & Viewliners but offer them in brass like he did for the Great Dome cars to make up for the smaller run.

OMG! Do you know what the prices of those would be?  You better have some Big Money for that! 

But I have to admit I love those Ball Bearing trucks! I am looking to see if someone would convert some of my trucks to those Ball bearings!

 I was converting older Sunset NYC cars to 2 rail. The axles I acquired from them recently are needle point. I used those but it may have been a poor choice. If I move forward installing bearings, I'll have to swap them out for blunt end axles to ride in the bearings. The needle point barely reach the side frames as they are set for 3 rail. So I already moved them in to retain the axles. I'm not proud of the result.

 I may swap out the whole trucks for bearing models. For now, I got some converted, and some replaced with MTH non- matching trucks. I'm not sure I could modify the stock frames for bearings? Maybe a shop equipped with better tooling could? I did not look closely when I first converted them as I expected better results at rolling.

The success of the modern Lionel and Atlas releases proves that plenty of people want modern stuff. I definitely won't be buying if the cars are brass. Absolutely beautiful, but I couldn't justify spending $600 on the GGD great dome (much less a whole train of Superliners), but when Lionel offered a plastic version I ordered it. Additionally, I much prefer my GGD plastic heavyweight to my GGD aluminum cars. Much better detail IMO, plus better price.

Scott will make whatever people will reserve.  He doesn't care what age it is.  little interest has been expressed to him.  When he goes to shows he asks people and they tell what they will reserve.  There was more interest in Amfleet I expressed than Amfleet II.  

The paint version only requires ~20 reservations and those you see listed are the ones that have received reservations.  The others are not excluded they have just received no reservations.  Email him and reserve what you want and when 5 or so cars have been reserved they will show up on the website.  That's how VGN64 got the NS great dome done.

He already has drawings of Viewliner sleepers as I am interested in those but so far I am pretty much alone. And yes, to do a decent car with under frame they will be $600+ cars.  And I'm not interested in dumbed down cars to save money.

If you want something email and tell him how many you will reserve.  He's not interested in what you would like to see done, that doesn't pay the bills.

It's the same story with large vs small steam.  People say why doesn't anyone make small steam.  The reason is no one buys it.  They all want Big Boys and Challengers.  Those sell out.  Small steam sits there in his warehouse unsold.  People think a small steam should be much cheaper than large.  The builders disagree.  Same with modern diesels.  I've suggested GP40-2s rather than the SD40-2s and his website asks what people think.  So far fewer are interested in the GPs than the SDs. 

And Overland made both the Phase I (PS) and Phase II (Bombardier) Superliners.   They have no interiors but if JPV69 could be talked into making his interiors available (on Shapeways or directly or...) that would be great.

Lots of people talk about what they want but it's the paid orders that pay the bills thus getting cars built.  I've become an Amtrak fan as we have the Crescent going thru Lynchburg with Amfleet cars, Viewliner sleepers and baggage plus Budd diners.  They had Budd baggage cars and will soon have Viewliner diners.  Basically you can do any mix and have a correct train.   We also have a regional train daily each direction with Amfleet cars.   I can build my heavyweight Southern Crescent, N&W Powhatan Arrow and C&O streamliners then update them thru time to all Viewliner and Amfleet before it's over.   I have pictures of PRR, UP and other roads mixed in the Southern Crescent before Amtrak took over thus anything is possible.

 I still feel bad about what happened with me and 3rd Rail. So maybe some explanation is due?

I posted a statement here on this forum. I meant to say to another poster, who was trying to get his hands on a set of Amtrak cars, that ( If I were him!) I'd be glad to get any copy of the pass cars I ordered. Someone took that to mean I would now take the Santa Fe version instead of the Amtrak that I ordered. So even though I ordered Amtrak, I was shipped the Santa Fe full set. They took them back and didn't take any more reservations I made. Ah well.....

It seems to me that the Amfleet Is are a much better choice to make initially.  Firstly they have a longer service life and so can exist in more liveries and suit more eras - still I was surprised at the omission of the current Phase Vb scheme or whatever you like to call it.  I did pre-order a couple of them to intermix with my predominately Horizon Amtrak Phase IV fleet.  The other part of the picture is that Amtrak locos are also pretty unique types and in relatively short supply.  I am very lucky to have one of the Atlas Dash 8-32BWH locos from a decade ago, plus I picked up the recent MTH F40PH in Phase IV livery.  I actually ordered both road numbers in 2-rail, but MTH had insufficient orders to produce both numbers.  The only one I actually got was rd#409.

Regards, Bevis.

Engineer-Joe posted:

 I still feel bad about what happened with me and 3rd Rail. So maybe some explanation is due?

I posted a statement here on this forum. I meant to say to another poster, who was trying to get his hands on a set of Amtrak cars, that ( If I were him!) I'd be glad to get any copy of the pass cars I ordered. Someone took that to mean I would now take the Santa Fe version instead of the Amtrak that I ordered. So even though I ordered Amtrak, I was shipped the Santa Fe full set. They took them back and didn't take any more reservations I made. Ah well.....

So someone used a forum post as a reason to change your order?  Well that's a bit wacky.  You would think if someone saw that they would at least directly contact you to confirm instead of just sending you a set of cars based on a forum post.  Then again I don't know the whole story so maybe there's more to it.  Glad you didn't get stuck with them at least.

MartyE posted:

Engineer-Joe posted:

 I still feel bad about what happened with me and 3rd Rail. So maybe some explanation is due?

I posted a statement here on this forum. I meant to say to another poster, who was trying to get his hands on a set of Amtrak cars, that ( If I were him!) I'd be glad to get any copy of the pass cars I ordered. Someone took that to mean I would now take the Santa Fe version instead of the Amtrak that I ordered. So even though I ordered Amtrak, I was shipped the Santa Fe full set. They took them back and didn't take any more reservations I made. Ah well.....

So someone used a forum post as a reason to change your order?  Well that's a bit wacky.  You would think if someone saw that they would at least directly contact you to confirm instead of just sending you a set of cars based on a forum post.  Then again I don't know the whole story so maybe there's more to it.  Glad you didn't get stuck with them at least.

It sounds even worse when I read it now. How it happened, is still wrong to me. I was just sent something I did not order and told that I should not have posted in a public forum that I would accept something else. When pressed, the pressure lessoned to "won't I accept them anyways".

There's always 2 sides to the story, so unless something changes that I remain unaware of, I'm left baffled. I never got what I ordered and I was left to blame. It really is OK. I prefer lesser priced stuff on my RR. I tried something different and it did not work out.

 It would be very interesting, if someone else was involved and got my set of 2 rail Amtrak. I'll never know what transpired behind the scenes. I'm sure people would gladly step forward if an extra set was suddenly made available. I have many 3rd Rail products. I probably will only get more when they are available as used pieces at a fair price for their condition. They are up there at the top of my price range that I've set. I guess if I were the importer, trying hard to deliver this product and stuck between customers that constantly present challenges, I might have to adjust my tactics to be the best for profits that are minimal anyways.

Engineer-Joe posted:

  I have to convert anything I buy to 2 rail so I'm used to doing work and opening up brand new stuff. I hope to be impressed with the new LED lighting. I'm thinking that mixing a train with some Atlas Amtrak Horizon cars and anything else I have to throw at the consist.

The more you support 2 rail manufacturers the more likely you will see what you want made in two rail. You might have to look a bit harder, but stuff is out there. I've never bought ANYTHING 3 rail, and sooner or later I've usually found what I want.

Simon

 I bought Atlas Horizon 2 rail cars and I had to open them up too. I couldn't take the flickering lights.

Joe,     There is also a HUGE secondary market out there.

Simon