New Lionel Catalog MSRP Prices

If you are planning to buy 10 of the GP30s all in one year, that would be very expensive.

The prices are for the local hobby shop that will only sell 3 or 4 of the GP30s over the entire year.

Andrew

Now that Lionel has joined the ranks of other manufacturers by making over inflated retail prices to make it seem like you're getting a good deal.....it really means nothing.

Unless you buy from a LHS who charges full retail, maybe that will change now, but doubt it. All this is doing is more damage to the LHS, unless bigger discounts will allow even them to offer some type of discount to the MSRP.

Really???  With a business model like that, I'd be surprised if those LHS's would be around after their first year.

In short, the new MSRP's for some of the products are downright laughable, and I pity any business that expects to sell a GP-30 or S-2 for $650.  The demand is simply not there to support that nonsense.  Even some large shops that hold out for MSRP -- waiting for other dealers to "sell out" at discount pricing -- don't have a prayer at these MSRP prices.

What's even more scary are the STREET prices for the GP-30 and S-2 at $470.  Who's gonna buy this stuff at that price?    Then again, they're BTO if I'm not mistaken... so unless dealers foolishly order a slew of them, I wouldn't expect to see these blown out next year.  More likely they just won't get built at all if Lionel is expecting consumers to actually pre-order at these prices. 

David

What's even more scary are the STREET prices for the GP-30 and S-2 at $470.  Who's gonna buy this stuff at that price?    Then again, they're BTO if I'm not mistaken... so unless dealers foolishly order a slew of them, I wouldn't expect to see these blown out next year.  More likely they just won't get built at all if Lionel is expecting consumers to actually pre-order at these prices. 

 

David

I agree, even at $470 it's pretty high, and too much for me. Think I'm leaning toward the 'won't get built' camp. There may be a lot more RailKing in my future, unless MTH follows along with these prices. Then I'll have to regroup. 

Thanks David that is my point, the business model is ridiculous to inflate the MSRP in order to make the margin look better. They have actually raised the wholesale prices of the models by a significant amount. I can honestly say that my hobby store most likely will not be stocking any of these models due to the high wholesale price and insane retail price. Linoel SD-70ACe's and Dash 9's were retailing for $529 what in the heck happened???

Not surprised at all to hear that, Matt. 

Just for another point of comparison... We can purchase an FM Trainmaster Legacy diesel (due for delivery in a month or two) for just under $400.  And if they don't move quickly, we'll see them closer to $325 next year.  So why on earth would I spend $470 for a GP-30 or S-2?  Just to be the first guy on the block to have one?  Sorry, Lionel.  Ain't gonna happen.

Not to mention all the other over-produced diesels that are sitting in dealer inventory with blow-out prices below $350.  I'm perplexed at what the heck Lionel is thinking here.  Market is already over-saturated with no demand to speak of, so let's jack up the wholesale and MSRP prices.  Really??? 

David

That's exactly what I thought about the VL Big Boy's, what's the point in the high MSRP and then everyone selling them at blowout prices right off the bat? Haven't talked to my LHS yet, but I would almost bet they will be doing as yours is and not stocking these items. Sure doesn't look like they are helping the LHS's. Maybe it's a typo?

Though the new GP30s are BTO. Sound logic, it'd be interesting to see how many extras will be floating around.

Hhhmmmm... but all the dealer pricelists seem to have the same $460-$470 street prices on these $650 MSRP diesels.  

Keep in mind that the dealers seldom create their price lists based on discounts off MSRP, but rather their internal cost plus profit margin.  If they publish a percentage discount off MSRP, that's just all smoke and mirrors to make consumers "feel good".

So for dealers to come up with a $470 street-price, they must have seen an increased internal cost from Lionel by which they calculated "up" their new street price.

David

Or if they even get built at all at those prices.  Wouldn't surprise me if these lead the "product cancellation listing" in a few months.  

David

This will not help bring people into the hobby, or newer hobbyist, even the real world prices are as noted $470 for a diesel and $1300 for steam, no track, no cars, no transformer, making anything other than a starter set at least a grand to get started in diesel and closer to $2,000 for steam. Lot of moms and dads are going to find something else for their youngsters to do....like an iPad that costs half as much and does twice as much.

Yet the talk will be why don't we have more hobbyist...

Given the somewhat limited offerings in V2 as compared to the usual potpourri in a typical Signature catalog, I wonder if they're just testing the waters. The prices in 14 V1 came up with a huge price drop, especially when you consider the extra feature that got put back in the steam locomotives, so now to swing it the complete opposite direction, and almost arrogantly so, just comes across as insane. You're all right... the TMs, ES44s, SD70s, etc... are all coming in soon, and coming in at sub $400 street prices. So of course it makes perfect sense that a switcher is now $470.  It seems to me like they have no idea what they should be charging for this stuff, so "Lets just throw it up and see what sticks".

Not exactly sure what added value the consumer sees in BTO that makes it cost that much more.... to the guy buying it, its the same pile of circuit boards and plastic.

Would not be surprised at all to see 15V1 retreat back to something that makes a bit more sense, for the sake of actually selling some trains.

If I picked up a Lionel catalog after buying a train set for my kid for Christmas and saw prices that high I would be looking for a cheaper hobby

David, I'm on the fence for a high hood Southern unit. Watching to see if there's any more "action" to dealer pricing. It'd be a shame to pre-order a BTO and then see it cancelled. 

Curious in the case of the GP30s if the new high hood molding is a reason they bumped the price? Also, a lot of those diesels you mentioned have such a high demand, I'd be curious how they compared to the Legacy GPs, that could be another reason. Either way, hard to see the one you desire being $100-150 more than "older" Legacy GP30s.

And $99.99 for a UP plastic caboose with a smoke unit that will burn out in a few months or one that is never used! WOW I bet they can make them here in the good old USA for that price! If not then something is wrong! It's time we find out how much it cost to make this in China. Someone on here should have an idea?

And just wait for the MTH catalog we get at YORK let's see how much they are going up!

It's time we find out how much it cost to make this in China.

Menards has no problem in having a third party manufacture their nonscale boxcars, ship to the USA, and sell em for $20.

Count on it.  Note the stuff we find so offensively priced are some of the BTO items.  No sweat off Lionel's back if they don't receive enough orders.  Message will be received loud and clear.  I just feel for the folks who might want something that gets cancelled for lack of orders.  

David

I'm afraid we really don't want to know.  We'd all be terribly depressed. 

David

I got the o.k from the boss to order something but the prices are way too rich for my wallet. There were some interesting items but nothing I cannot live without.

I was looking for something positive about it, but that's a good point, I did see some online process and didn't think of that. The options list didn't look any different to me than any other Legacy diesel either. I won't be ordering one.

Lionel is simply recognizing the way the pricing "game" seems to work.  

I didn't bother to worry about the list prices, but made my list and prioritized it - what is most important first, etc.  Then I went on line and looked.  Only an hour after the catalog had gone on line, I got 30% discounts on everything I pre-ordered.  

Reasonable prices at that, I think.

Well, I'm going to have a different take here. All the train company CEO's have said this, even the much respected Jim Weaver: That it takes 2-3 complete sellout production runs just to break even on new tooled scale train products. And I believe this... they've all said it. At YORK this past spring, Mike Wolf said, every time he comes up with a new product idea, his accountants tell him "your putting us deeper in the hole" which sounds to me like MTH is struggling too.

Now add in the small production runs - and possibly getting smaller with the BTO model. And add in the ever increasing demands of the buying public for the higher end products... not a good picture for the train makers.

People have grumbled about paying $90-$100 for a recently developed Atlas scale car. How about $55-$75 for a traditional Lionel car with die cast trucks (new Lionel V.2 catalog), which has been around for decades? Or $45 for a Lionel starter car with plastic trucks - all from tooling that has long ago paid for itself?

Matt is correct in that the dealer wholesale prices have also risen. So the consumer mail order discount for the $45 starter car is around $36-$38 before shipping.

I have little doubt pricing on the traditional products are helping to subsidize the R&D / tooling costs for the higher end products, that by nature of their smaller production numbers, are probably taking even longer to make a return on their original costs.

If anyone recalls, when Lionel tooled up the traditional Hi-cube box car in the mid-1070's, the reason they did those cars in the Disney themes was to help recover the development and tooling costs. And I doubt the R&D / tooling costs to make a "representation" were not as high as they are to make a precision, accurate scale model.

Bill T, I think this has a lot to do with how Menards can sell those traditional box cars from the Williams tooling for so much less. They do not have an entire product line to finance. And the buildings are hand made... no tooling or dies.

The HO marker is so much bigger. Which helps to make the much larger variety more affordable to finance for the train importers. The 3-rail market is so much smaller, and so much more diversified. I too, wonder how much longer the hobby can continue to grow, especially with newcomers and young families, with prices that I know will seem high to them too... I know, they tell me so.

I think this was a catalog first as far as I can recall.  Before noon today, several of the OGR forum sponsors already had the new 2014 Volume 2 prices online or emails sent out with a priceguide PDF.  As mind-numbing as it seems to be bombarded by all these dealers in what was pretty much exclusively a discussion-forum here not that long ago, Lionel clearly provided this valuable catalog information to their dealer network to help them with this catalog launch.  And there were no significant leaks to speak of beforehand -- just a few harmless teasers.  Pretty amazing when you think about it.

David

You know these same arguments were here when Lionel offered the VL Centipedes for over 2g's. Still people bought them even at the $1800.00 street price. MTH counter offered with their plastic model at a more reasonable $800.00

And there's still quite a few in the market that still aren't moving even for $1,400-$1,500. 

David

460 street price for a s2 is way to high. I was gonna get the cp rail one and then I saw the price.. I can buy a plastic es44 from v1 catalog and take my wife out to dinner vs a s2 ..  No brainier .

I bought a set of VL Union Pacific Centipedes because when they came out There just happened to be 2 grand available to buy them. The argument is made that people keep wanting more high end products , I disagree. I would love to see atlas do more Trainman rolling stock. More affordable $50 freight cars with just enough detail to look great from 3 feet away. How often do you pick up your rolling stock and flip it over and go wow, look at the detail under the car?

>>>Curious in the case of the GP30s if the new high hood molding is a reason they bumped the price? Also, a lot of those diesels you mentioned have such a high demand, I'd be curious how they compared to the Legacy GPs, that could be another reason. Either way, hard to see the one you desire being $100-150 more than "older" Legacy GP30s.<<<

My legacy Chessie GP30 had a msrp of $399.00. I paid $280.00.

This new $650.00 run has no additional features except the IR sensor..

A $250.00 price increase seems excessive at best.  

Secondary market RS prices are currently deep in the dumper..To say the market is saturated is an understatement..

There's so much of it out there of every type configuration selling in the $25- $30  range, its hard to figure out why anyone still buys the new stuff.

joe

I see only 1 Steam Engine with Whistle Steam Smoke Effect Retail 2,000.00.

We might not ever see whistle smoke on engines under $1,000.00 again.

I am not complaining but I do love that whistle smoke effect.

The retail prices would be what is in the catalog at an all around HOBBY SHOP where the model railroad selection is just 15-20% of the store's items. The rest would be things like games, plastic kits, radio controlled items, building & painting materials, and books or magazines. That would be the type of store that would sell just 3 or 4 of the GP30s over the course of a year.

Andrew

I do not understand Lionel's pricing structure.  I have been in the hobby for 5 years and on the forum for the same amount of time.  I have read many threads about its inconsistencies.  I would love to understand how the Lionel executives determine the MSRP.

I do know that Lionel has 2 tiers of vendors each of which pay a different amount for the same product.  Charlie Ro is a "wholesaler" and he pays less for his Lionel products than the typical LHS that purchases from a true wholesaler (a company that does not sell at the retail level).  This wholesale pricing structure gives an unfair advantage to stores like Charlie Ro and just puts one more nail in the coffin of the LHS.  

I pay Absolutely NO ATTENTION to the list price. It is meaningless.

I agree the prices are getting high but have you guys been to a grocery store or fuel your car lately? 

Prices of fuel has doubled over the past five years and grocery prices keep going up. Nothing is cheap anymore and that will also include our trains. 

Although i do think the high msrp will turn off allot of people who are seasonal or are just in the process of looking for a hobby by looking at the catalog. 

I agree. Anything over 2 grand is just too high. 

The new pricing in this catalog is a real shocker.  But no more so than every time I go tho the grocery store!  The dollar is worth less and will buy less.

I will definitely be ordering the Southern  high hood GP30.  I have been wanting one since I saw the real unit at the NC Transportation Museum in Spencer, NC.

Thank you Lionel for stepping up to the plate on this one.

Happy railroading,

Don

Toy trains, groceries, and gas. Hardly an appropriate comparison. There are necessities, and things that aren't. You need to cut out the groceries and gas. 

Actually, compared to much of the world, groceries and gas in this country are a bargain. 

PTC, you do pay attention to the retail price you just dont realize it. the MSRP and the street price are generally a direct percentage increase of the  wholesale price