"New" Lionel Fan Driven Smoke Units

Take John's (GRJ) advice !!!!!!!!!!

But just to try things out..........I did just that.

I have an older TMCC diesel (circa 2003) with that "dumb"27 ohm smoke unit.

I put an MTH 17 (16) ohm resistor in.  Smokes like a banshee!  You have to refill often but so far.....a couple of months now.....still working.

I would like to find 20 ohm or 22 ohm resistors but have not been able to locate them (you can get the ceramic ones but you have to remove the coating).

If anyone knows where to get 20 ohm bare wire non-ceramic resistors.....please share.

Thanks

When it comes to upgrading smoke units in TMCC locos I have always followed the rule that using the 27 ohm wirewound resistor is ALWAYS the best course of action. Now, you can dabble with AC Regs and 6 Ohm and 8 Ohm elements, but I have never been impressed with their smoke production. The reg was originally developed to ensure equal amount of smoke when TMCC locos were run in conventional mode (as compared to command mode). The architecture stayed when Lionel transitioned to Legacy modular electronics, because the smoke output on the R4LC was used to control the cab light. The R2LC utilized pins 5 & 6 for smoke hot, this changed to cab light hot and was triggered on and off by input to pin 15 on the R4LC (not to get off topics here, sorry). Nevertheless, the AC Regulators are not that impressive in terms of smoke production and they add another onion layer to the troubleshooting process.

If you follow the guidelines of the video John posted, it will stand true for most any Lionel smoke unit. Rip out the sleeve, repack the unit with the old TAS wicking 691SMKP008 enlarge the air hole for the impeller and stick with a 27 Ohm wirewound unit run off an R2LC set to auxiliary setting 8 (directional headlights and smoke on/off).

Now smoke fluid plays role here too, in smoke production. This was always a very controversial topic in my past role at Lionel, as JT Megasteam is recognized as the premier smoke fluid for many folks, but the JT fluid, over time (and a short period of time at that) leaves a very sticky yellowish residue in the smoke system (heating chamber and stack, tubing, etc.) the vapor (smoke) tends to cling to this residue and the smoke production begins to diminish, the standard perception is that the smoke unit is failing, but that is not typically the cause, its the residue. The Lionel premium Smoke Fluid 6-37841 is the exact same smoke fluid I sold at TAS. It burns much cleaner and does not leave any type of deposit or sticky residue in on or around the smoke system. The new scented smoke fluid from Lionel is the same base material (Premium smoke fluid) with an additive for scent. I am not looking to start a controversy with my professional opinion about smoke fluid, and I have no hard feelings towards JT Megasteam. I do, however, have a vast amount of experience in opening up and servicing Lionel fan driven smoke units (as well as my own TAS fan driven smoke unit), it is a safe assumption to say I have seen my fair share of smoke units and know what works and what doesn't (sorry, not trying to toot my own whistle).

Back on topic; you can mess around with AC Regs and 6 and 8 ohm elements all you want, but my "satisfactory outcome" advise is stick the 27 Ohm wire wound Lionel elements (for Lionel TMCC conversions) run off pins 5 & 6 of the R2LC for "making smoke". If you want puffing smoke in sync with chuffing AND smoke in idle use GRJ's Super Chuffer PCB to control your fan motor. Implement the small upgrades mentioned in my video (pay close attention to the "scientific" method of balling up the batting, its VERY important (LOL)).

One final thought for all, I am sure you have heard people saying their smoke batting is "Charred" and it had to be replaced. This is a big misnomer. That dark brown/black color that your batting develops is actually hydrocarbon deposits (same idea as the black soot deposits built up around the exhaust pipe of diesel pickup trucks) not charring. You can actually take a torch and hold the flame to the batting (I know this holds true for the 691-SMKP-008 Lionel batting) and it will not discolor, it is fireproof, its a "wick" and is designed for its purpose. The hydrocarbon deposits are created when the liquid smoke fluid transforms into a vapor, it is part of the chemical reaction that occurs during this process. For anyone who has ever opened up a smoke unit and replaced the batting you know this can vary from a very small amount of what appears to be charred batting to the batting being stuck to the element. In either instance it is simply the hydrocarbon deposits. You do not need to change the batting every time, it is possible to simply rearrange the batting so the deposits are relocated to an area inside the heating chamber where they do not interfere with the capillary action of the wick pulling the fluid from the bottom of the smoke bowl towards the heat source (the element). It is also wise to carefully remove the hydrocarbon from the element as well, to allow clean fresh smoke fluid to come into contact with the heated windings of the element.

Sorry for the rambling, just trying to help everyone interested fully understand what will result in something you will enjoy versus something that will be strewn about their workbench for the next 10 years, frustrated it doesn't work!

Enjoy!

I've found the regulator equipped locomotives are all over the map.  I've had some that smoked great, and others that were anemic smokers no matter what I did.  I had one that was so bad, even after replacing the regulator, that I removed the regulator, changed the smoke resistor, and ran it right off the R2LC.  I have a little box of dead regulators, the TMCC versions seem to die a lot, even the early Legacy ones weren't a paragon of reliability. 

A story I've recounted before, if you want to see a spectacular smoker, wait for one of the regulators to fail shorted!  I've never seen any locomotive smoke like that, even though it only lasted 15-20 seconds!   I had to replace the regulator and smoke unit PCB that was completely charred all the way through.  I figure the 18 volts across that 6 ohm resistor dumped about 50 watts into that tiny space!  I suspect the next time I see that locomotive at the club, it'll still smell like cooked PCB, what a stink!

Soo Line posted:

Take John's (GRJ) advice !!!!!!!!!!

But just to try things out..........I did just that.

I have an older TMCC diesel (circa 2003) with that "dumb"27 ohm smoke unit.

I put an MTH 17 (16) ohm resistor in.  Smokes like a banshee!  You have to refill often but so far.....a couple of months now.....still working.

I would like to find 20 ohm or 22 ohm resistors but have not been able to locate them (you can get the ceramic ones but you have to remove the coating).

If anyone knows where to get 20 ohm bare wire non-ceramic resistors.....please share.

 

I did the mod you mentioned years ago as forum member Rod Stewart posted his findings after his modification. Smoke like a banshee, yes. I do remember GRJ stating then that it was too much of a drop that could lead to other issues and I never did another.

Last night I searched "digikey" for about 2-3 hours and ran across some interesting reading. One note I read on stepping down the resistor recommended 18 - 22 ohms, as a replacement to the 27 ohm in the old TMCC engines.

I searched for uncoated resistors as well and could not find anything so I ended up ordering these that were in a couple threads:

http://www.digikey.com/product.../20.0CECT-ND/2208391

Jeff T posted:

I searched for uncoated resistors as well and could not find anything so I ended up ordering these that were in a couple threads:

http://www.digikey.com/product.../20.0CECT-ND/2208391

 

I've never found a source for uncoated wire-wound resistors other than the train importers themselves.

I have a quantity of the Digikey ceramic coated ones but removing the coating is a little bit finicky.

I don't know who 3rd Rail source their smoke units from (I do know it was TAS at one stage) but for the most part the 3rd Rail engines I have use ceramic coated resistors and have a thermistor as well. With correct spacing between the thermistor and the resistor (sometimes they come from the factory too closely spaced) they smoke almost as well as an MTH dual-resistor model.

It's not a (big) complaint but I don't find that late model (new boards) Legacy engines smoke as well as I'd like. The most impressive Legacy engine in the smoke department is the first Legacy FEF-3.

Understood Jeff...........however, do you plan on removing the ceramic coating?

I seem to recall that the coating had to be reduced to get the effect desired.

I use the Dremel SS wire wheel to knock the coating off, it's actually pretty easy.  You just have to make sure you do the job parallel to the windings, not across the windings.  I can do one in less than a minute.  A gentle touch is the key, don't press down hard, just let the wire wheel do the work.

Mike, welcome back. Nice to hear from you.

Kevin

In the videos I have watched on Youtube, it appears that the newer MTH premier line diesel locomotives tend to emit way more smoke than the Lionel Legacy SD60e that I have.  Is this the case for most MTH engines?  Are thier smoke units typically better?

TrainGuyMcGee posted:

In the videos I have watched on Youtube, it appears that the newer MTH premier line diesel locomotives tend to emit way more smoke than the Lionel Legacy SD60e that I have.  Is this the case for most MTH engines?  Are thier smoke units typically better?

No, not necessarily. Both Lionel and MTH now have systems that try to replicate prototypical smoke output in the sense of increasing or lowering it with the operational characteristics of the engine. PS2 diesels would output a vast amount of smoke (if that's what you wanted) by a simple adjustment of the low-medium-high setting. PS3s have variable smoke output based mainly (as far as I can work out) on RPM levels; with Legacy you have to factor in the EFX setting, train brake and so forth. In either case there is still a L-M-H setting but it's not the only factor.

All that said, MTH units seem to me to produce more smoke than Legacy. MTH have some patent or other on their design which means that other manufacturers have to work around it.

I'm not sure that any of us asked for the more sophisticated settings and the variables that go with them. (I did not realize that MTH had introduced them until someone on this forum pointed out an obscure reference on their website, by which time I had already take apart my first PS3 engine on the assumption that something was wrong with it).

Mikado posted:

 

Now smoke fluid plays role here too, in smoke production. This was always a very controversial topic in my past role at Lionel, as JT Megasteam is recognized as the premier smoke fluid for many folks, but the JT fluid, over time (and a short period of time at that) leaves a very sticky yellowish residue in the smoke system (heating chamber and stack, tubing, etc.) the vapor (smoke) tends to cling to this residue and the smoke production begins to diminish, the standard perception is that the smoke unit is failing, but that is not typically the cause, its the residue. The Lionel premium Smoke Fluid 6-37841 is the exact same smoke fluid I sold at TAS. It burns much cleaner and does not leave any type of deposit or sticky residue in on or around the smoke system. The new scented smoke fluid from Lionel is the same base material (Premium smoke fluid) with an additive for scent. I am not looking to start a controversy with my professional opinion about smoke fluid, and I have no hard feelings towards JT Megasteam. I do, however, have a vast amount of experience in opening up and servicing Lionel fan driven smoke units (as well as my own TAS fan driven smoke unit), it is a safe assumption to say I have seen my fair share of smoke units and know what works and what doesn't (sorry, not trying to toot my own whistle).

Careful there Mike. Drinking anything but Megasteam in these parts can cause an outcry of a Lionel conspiracy. 

There can become a lot of confusion on Lionel Smoke methods, because there are so many.  The early basic fan driven smoke was a single 27 ohm self contained unit that receives heater power from the R2LC and fan power from the smoke units 5V regulator.  It is a balance between conventional and command, hence the marginal output.  You will see some versions that use the cherry switch that generates chuff also control the fan motor, basically a poor man's puff switch.

The ACREG models not only provided a more consistent balance between conventional and command.  6 or 8 ohm resistor and a Regulator that would only need to put out a lower 3 to 6V.  But you had a selectable output now that included L, M, H output and you freed up the Triac output on the R2LC/R4LC (Legacy).  Since the ACREG could take track power directly and used serial data directly to control smoke output, including off.

Remember this is all running off AC power and the triacs can cut half the sinewave off, so the effective power is low.  Hence the anemic output you may see.

New Legacy is now running on DC Power, and directly off the Circuit board with programming that can control the effective current (power) going to the heating element, and also directly control the fan motor.  Since programming can also monitor track power and adjust what goes to the smoke unit based on track Voltage, set speed, etc.... you can control a better output.  Unfortunately you can not control any of this.  There are also Legacy units that used a separate PCB for smoke control.  Usually involved with some tighter engines that the Ne Legacy board could not fit in, or the multiple smoke unit models.

So what to do?  For the Lionel TMCC single element integrated fan power smoke unit LOWER the resistor to 16 to 22 depending on the level of smoke you like.  If running command all the time I think 20 to 16 is a good target.,

If you have the ACREG model with 8 ohm, go to 6 ohm resistor and make sure the acreg is frame mounted as a heat sink.

If you want smaller Legacy or LC+ smoke unit that has no fan power supply, you need to go to the 16-22 ohm resistor (they come with 8 ohm) and use John's super chuffer or another 5V source for the fan.

MTH is unique in that the PS-1 used 2 16 ohm resistor in series.  And turned track power into filter DC, there by getting more effective power to the element.  At low voltage the circuit board would short one resistor out giving you 16 ohms receiving about 8 to 11V DC.  With a wick pinched between the 2 elements.  At higher voltage the second resistor is UN Shorted and you now have a 32 ohm resistance receiving 13-18VDC.  This protects the resistor and gives you a more consistent smoke output at any voltage.  This is a conventional smoke unit and a perfect unit to use in a Lionel 27ohm TMCC based upgrade as you can directly hook it to the R2LC output as is.  You just need an engine big enough for it to fit.

MTH PS-2 and 3 Command engine use the same set up, just no electronics on the smoke unit.  2 16 ohm resistors in parallel now for an effective 8 ohm resistance and the same 5V fan motor.  All power to element and smoke fan comes from the PS-2/3 board that via the programming measures track power and other setting to give you variable heater power and smoke fan power to generate different levels of smoke output and puffing as necessary.   There are some other MTH units that are different for certain applications, but the majority are as described.  If you have questions just ask.  Knowing the specific model and what electronic is important.  TMCC/LEGACY/ERR/TAS/PS-2 or3 etc...  

Going in reverse, for those that put PS-2 into Lionel I can tell you what I have done for ATLAS/TAS and Lionel Smoke units to get them to work with PS-2/3 board.  BECAUSE in almost all circumstances if you can leave an original fan Driven Smoke unit in place, your better off.  Mechanical fit can be a harder problem than the electronic conversion.  G

Well that sums it up very nicely George.  Thank You.

One final question which seems to be  universal..............................................

Except for using the 20 to 22 Ohm resistors with the ceramic coating that must be removed.....

Where can a soul find the 20 to 22 Ohm resistors wire wound without the ceramic?

Soo Line posted:

Well that sums it up very nicely George.  Thank You.

One final question which seems to be  universal..............................................

Except for using the 20 to 22 Ohm resistors with the ceramic coating that must be removed.....

Where can a soul find the 20 to 22 Ohm resistors wire wound without the ceramic?

http://www.digikey.com/product...B-22R/22W-5-ND/18663

I have bought these. Put them in a vise and crank down until the ceramic breaks apart. Works like a charm and leaves you with a perfect exposed wirewound resistor. 

Soo Line posted:

Well that sums it up very nicely George.  Thank You.

One final question which seems to be  universal..............................................

Except for using the 20 to 22 Ohm resistors with the ceramic coating that must be removed.....

Where can a soul find the 20 to 22 Ohm resistors wire wound without the ceramic?

I have not.  Some K-Line had 20 I believe.  Lionel is 6, 8 and 27 primarily and MTH has 8 and 16.  8 for the single unit, but they are harder than hens teeth to get.

JTH

First time I've heard of this method !  I certainly like your positive experience with removing the ceramic....!!!

Being this easy to remove ....I'm off to buy some and try your method.

Thanks!

GGG posted:

Soo Line posted:

Well that sums it up very nicely George.  Thank You.

One final question which seems to be  universal..............................................

Except for using the 20 to 22 Ohm resistors with the ceramic coating that must be removed.....

Where can a soul find the 20 to 22 Ohm resistors wire wound without the ceramic?

I have not.  Some K-Line had 20 I believe.  Lionel is 6, 8 and 27 primarily and MTH has 8 and 16.  8 for the single unit, but they are harder than hens teeth to get.

Agreed George.......I was/am having problems with MTH parts contact.

I needed an 8 ohm for my MTH S2 20-2500-1 switcher.

I used an 8 ohm Lionel resistor.  Being twice the size, I used a couple of pieces of insulator board at both ends of the smoke bowl to make sure the resistor did not touch the bowl.

This has been working well now so far.................................

Do you see any risks to my "arrangement" ?

Thanks

Soo Line posted:

JTH

First time I've heard of this method !  I certainly like your positive experience with removing the ceramic....!!!

Being this easy to remove ....I'm off to buy some and try your method.

Thanks!

I'm not going to take credit for it. I did an in-depth search here for smoke unit resistors and saw someone had posted this method. 

I'm using one right now in a PW style smoke unit fitted into a 783. Works great and can be used with pellets. If I was using strictly fluid I would change the resistance a bit. Maybe 26ohm if available. At less than 60 cents each, and cheap shipping, you can't go wrong. 

jth877 posted:

http://www.digikey.com/product...B-22R/22W-5-ND/18663

 I have bought these. Put them in a vise and crank down until the ceramic breaks apart. Works like a charm and leaves you with a perfect exposed wirewound resistor. 

 Interesting technique, I just tried it and it worked pretty well.  I found you had to put them in so you crush the corners, when I had them in flat, they just laughed at me.

George, one of if not the best summary of how to improve smoke output on Lionel units; great info; also a really good thread; thanks to all; Falcon70

I doubly emphasize one point that George made.  If you drop the resistor to 6 ohms for a regulated unit, be SURE you heatsink the triac.  Truthfully, any of the regulators that aren't already bolted to the frame will benefit greatly in reliability by frame mounting.