"New" Lionel Fan Driven Smoke Units

I use MTH smoke units as a rule for these upgrades.  A lot more smoke than the LC+ smoke units.

Which part number do you use?

Any idea what the dimensions are; I thought they we larger than the Lionel units, and space is tight...

I use AA-0000070, the steam one with the short posts.  Dimensions are 1" wide, 1.4" long, and 1.3" tall at the tip of the motor.  I haven't had issues fitting it into anything but a very small brass steamer.

MTH also has the AA-2100002 single element smoke unit, ,7' wide, 1.3" long and 1" tall at the tip of the motor.

Finally, there's the MTH HO smoke unit, even a bit smaller.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Finally, there's the MTH HO smoke unit, even a bit smaller.

Do you happen to have the part number for the HO smoke units?

Thanks.

And what are the wiring connections to TMCC?

Bruk posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Finally, there's the MTH HO smoke unit, even a bit smaller.

Do you happen to have the part number for the HO smoke units?

AA-1600000

Still questioning how to wire these to TMCC.

I appreciate the help.

To use any of the MTH smoke units with straight TMCC, you need to provide a couple of extras.  First off, you need DC for the fan motor, 3V for the HO one and 5V for the O-gauge ones.  Also, you'll need to either change the resistors or provide some method of dropping the voltage (switching regulator?) to use them.

They're not "drop-in" like the Lionel 27 ohm units.

Thanks.

So if one were to use a using a Lionel 27 ohm unit, how would one connect to TMCC?

(I  had another post with the same question) https://ogrforum.com/t...28#71115595966450828

Connect it directly to the smoke output from the R2LC board.

R2LC Output to the Red or center rail input of smoke unit.  The Black or chassis ground/outside rail goes to chassis ground.  G

If i understand correctly, that is for the smoke resistor.

What about the fan?

The fan has a built-in power supply on the smoke unit, it run whenever the smoke unit is receiving power.  Here's the bottom of a typical Lionel 27 ohm rectangular smoke unit, the parts on the left are the fan power supply.

Mr Harrington,

The flyer smoke unit is designed for use with Legacy electronics, meaning the fan motor receives power from the electronics (not built in like the 8057-200 O gauge smoke unit). Retrofitting the small smoke unit into an existing loco will be a daunting task (I say this because of your question of where to connect to the R2LC, I am making the assumption you are not familiar with the internal wiring or more specifically all the outputs of the existing electronics in whatever it is you are attempting to convert, no insult intended here, just making an observation).

You will need a separate 5V power supply PCB to run the fan motor, and at that it will only run steadily, non-stop, it will not sync with the chuffing (unless you use Gun Runners separate sale PCB, in conjunction with the 5V power supply board). That will be a whole lot of extra PC to stuff into a Flyer loco. I have a little experience in doing that in a past life, enough experience to advise that you are heading down the path of disappointment (sorry).

Can you advise what it is you are trying to convert? Perhaps the loco has the space, but without knowing it is impossible to advise. Lionel sells a 5V power supply PCB; 691REG5B01, but it is a rather large PCB and would not fit well in the instance of "cramming" it inside an already stuffed loco! Then add John's PCB and your into the 5lbs in a 1lb bag situation.

Don't mean to burst your bubble, but hate to see you go down a path that only leads to disappointment.

Best Regards!

Look what the cat drug back in... welcome back Mike

Well, if he actually decided to use the Super-Chuffer, he doesn't need a 5V supply, as the Super-Chuffer provides the smoke fan power.  I think we got too many smoke units in the discussion, things got confusing.

BTW, where did Flyer come into the conversation?  I thought we were talking about a O-gauge Atlantic, the 6-18095.

Welcome back Mike.

Welcome back Mike....great to see you on the Forum again.

Thanks for the input Mike.  I have been poking around to educate myself on improving my older "fleet" as I get back into "playing" with my trains.

I I actually have 2 separate posts on upgrading older TMCC locos to fan driven smoke.

One post is on the 610-8057-200 , https://ogrforum.com/t...unit-install-upgrade, which I plan to install in a Lionel E-6   (6-18095), which I upgraded with Lionels TMCC and RailSounds 15+ years ago.  I ordered a Supper-Chuffer for this install. I appreciate any advice on that post, and am interested if there are other methods, as I have a few other locos i would like to convert.

My question on this post is regarding upgrading a Lionel 6-28758 TMCC Camelback, with the 640-2500-200 smoke unit that is in the new Lion Chief Plus version of this loco, as I am betting it will fit well, as it is the "same" loco with new electronics.  The smoke unit is listed as having a 27 ohm resistor.  My question here is how to wire it to achieve synchronized chuffing and smoke.

Thanks.

GRJ - I had asked a couple years back if I could substitute MTH smoke units for those that come in Lionel Legacy steamers.  The reason I was inquiring was that we only bought MTH steamers when we entered the hobby and then bought our first Lionel steamer - and we were amazed at the anemic smoke output.  And also felt the MTH staccato puffing was more prototypical (for anyone who feels differently - that's your privilege, this is my opinion).  At that time, several folks on this forum said I'd need to replace electronics too for the MTH unit to "know" how to work with the Legacy software.  Has something changed?  

Also - your superchuffer - is it more like the MTH version, with its staccato and prodigious smoke output?  And, is it a not-too-complicated replacement for the existing Lionel Legacy units?

Thanks.

Peter 

Jim Harrington posted:

My question on this post is regarding upgrading a Lionel 6-28758 TMCC Camelback, with the 640-2500-200 smoke unit that is in the new Lion Chief Plus version of this loco, as I am betting it will fit well, as it is the "same" loco with new electronics.  The smoke unit is listed as having a 27 ohm resistor.  My question here is how to wire it to achieve synchronized chuffing and smoke.

The TMCC version of the Camelback is pretty tight inside, and while you might fit a smoke unit in there, it could be a challenge to fit the Super-Chuffer in there as well.

PJB posted:

GRJ - I had asked a couple years back if I could substitute MTH smoke units for those that come in Lionel Legacy steamers.  The reason I was inquiring was that we only bought MTH steamers when we entered the hobby and then bought our first Lionel steamer - and we were amazed at the anemic smoke output.  And also felt the MTH staccato puffing was more prototypical (for anyone who feels differently - that's your privilege, this is my opinion).  At that time, several folks on this forum said I'd need to replace electronics too for the MTH unit to "know" how to work with the Legacy software.  Has something changed?

It's possible to do some tuning on most Legacy smoke units and get quite decent smoke.  Perhaps not quite as much as MTH, but it'll be a WHOLE LOT cheaper to do.   The Super-Chuffer does indeed modulate the smoke similar to the MTH smoke operation, close enough that I had to license an MTH smoke patent to sell the Super-Chuffer.

As for if you could replace the smoke unit, that's a bit more complicated.  The Legacy smoke units for early Legacy are controlled by the voltage regulator and not the R4LC. It might be possible to replace the smoke unit, but I've never felt the need to try, just no return on investment of the time it would require to engineer the solution.

Later Legacy locomotives have the RCMC that handles all the smoke, I don't see a way to consider replacing that function, it would certainly take significant engineering work.

PJB posted:

Also - your superchuffer - is it more like the MTH version, with its staccato and prodigious smoke output?  And, is it a not-too-complicated replacement for the existing Lionel Legacy units?

The Super-Chuffer doesn't control the amount of smoke, only the control of the operation of the smoke fan to affect the appearance of the chuffs.  The smoke unit has to have the capability of outputting the desired amount of smoke.  Again, I don't see this as a reasonable replacement for Legacy, it was specifically designed for TMCC locomotives and TMCC upgrades.

IF one wanted to improve the smoke output of a Legacy smoke unit, what has worked for some of you wizards?ded?  I am sure it has been covered before but could not find it; has anyone gone from an 8 ohm element to a 6 ohm element?  My best result have been to change out the wicking and ensure plenty of fluid (Lionel Premium). Thanks for the help; Falcon70

PS: great to hear from Mikado!

Big Mike,

REALLY good to hear from you!!!

...Best,  Johnny  

Hey all,
Thanks for the welcome back messages.

My apologies if I missed the application in the beginning. The "flyer" smoke unit originated from the smoke unit part number "640" tells me the smoke unit came out of a flyer loco.

GRJ, was not aware the super smoker provided a 5VDC, now I know! Its only been about 9 years I have been out of the upgrade world, but since there are no Legacy upgrades I still have the knowledge, just a lotta rusty on what was introduced when I shut down TAS, my apologies for not staying on top of this!

The Atlantic is tight, the camelback is even tighter, For the camelback it might be easier to drop an MTH unit in there, (an older PS-1 version) I would imagine they have a version that is more stacked than long, that would fit in the smoke box better, or go with the standard 610-8057-200 Lionel fan driven unit (they come equipped with a 27 Ohm element, you just need to whack that fluid sleeve off the element before using).

In both instances I would avoid using a smoke unit that requires a separate 5V supply, again, just for a lack of space in both applications. John put it best a couple posts back; the amount of work does not justify the return. You can get fan driven smoke, but synchronized fan driven smoke may be asking for a bit with these conversions! But hey, its your hobby, don't let me tell you how to enjoy it!

Good luck

well said "look at what the cat dragged in"

I've talked to you here and there at York about upcoming passenger cars.............changing lighting to LEDS on some older Lionel stuff that I own

glad to see you're back in a saddle!

Falcon70 posted:

IF one wanted to improve the smoke output of a Legacy smoke unit, what has worked for some of you wizards?ded?  I am sure it has been covered before but could not find it; has anyone gone from an 8 ohm element to a 6 ohm element?  My best result have been to change out the wicking and ensure plenty of fluid (Lionel Premium). Thanks for the help; Falcon70

PS: great to hear from Mikado!

First off, DO NOT CHANGE THE VALUE OF THE LEGACY SMOKE UNIT RESISTOR!

Back when Mike was hanging out with Lionel, he posted a nice video about upgrading smoke units.  More airflow, better wick, and proper positioning of the wick to contact the resistor, but not block the flow of air past it are some key points.

Thanks much John; better wicking/placement/fluid amount seems the way to go; Falcon70

gunrunnerjohn posted:

First off, DO NOT CHANGE THE VALUE OF THE LEGACY SMOKE UNIT RESISTOR!

 

GRJ - Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought at one time you were an advocate of changing the resistor in TMCC smoke units to achieve better smoke output. Maybe not as much as some did, but a minimal change as not to damage the boards? (Or was your comment aimed at the Legacy smoke units?)

Not in Legacy locomotives or any TMCC locomotive that has the voltage regulator.  The regulator is matched to the smoke resistor, lowering the value of the resistor will risk cooking the smoke regulator.

The TMCC locomotives with 27 ohm resistors controlled directly from the R2LC I frequently tweak.

As someone electronically challenged, how do I know or what does the voltage regulator look like?

If the smoke unit has a 6 or 8 ohm resistor, there is a smoke regulator.  It's usually a small board encased in heatshrink and typically just laying in the bottom of the chassis somewhere.

Here's a typical example.

My TMCC, 2003 vintage has a 27 ohm resistor...

A candidate for a resistor change.

someone electronically challenged,  ME TOO!

I took apart a Legacy ES44AC GE to try to fix that loop-thing in front with a new truck; big mistake because in moving some plugs and boards around to get at the "tiny" screws I miss-plugged!; after a loud and bright electrical POP when started up;  I sent it back to LNL and they fixed it.

There is just too much sensitive electronic in there for me and used to be an mechanical/structural engineer.   Going from the E-unit to Legacy is like going from a Model T to a Tesla.

There needs to be a Lionel/MTH Internal Electronics for Dummies book.

Mr Harrington,

I just popped over to the other thread, John's advice is sound, connecting a fan motor to a chuff sensor will barely get the fan motor running, you may or at not get smoke in idle depending on where the magnet lands over the reed switch. When the train is moving the fan motor will spin at low speeds but turn into nothing at medium to high speeds.

At the end of the day, you need a processor in there to detect the chuff trigger inputs then provide a long enough (sustained) electrical output to allow the fan motor to actually spin (and subsequently push air through the heating chamber and out the stack). Much like GRJ I have some experience in this concept with the old TAS  Puff N Chuff upgrade we used to sell. John's version certainly sounds more robust than what was available back then. Irregardless of the champion product the bottom line is connecting a fan motor ground to a cherry switch/reed switch trigger will produce less than desirable results. Follow John's advice. He has been doing a great job of helping folks with their upgrade/repair questions and knows his stuff (John, please send that large basket of 50's to my new address!) LOL

Thanks,

gunrunnerjohn posted:

If the smoke unit has a 6 or 8 ohm resistor, there is a smoke regulator.  It's usually a small board encased in heatshrink and typically just laying in the bottom of the chassis somewhere.

Here's a typical example.

Could one take a TMCC older unit with a 27 ohm resistor set-up  -  install an 8 ohm resistor and a voltage regulator to achieve better smoke?

Thank You

Mikado posted:

(John, please send that large basket of 50's to my new address!) LOL

Already on it's way Mike.

Soo Line posted:

Could one take a TMCC older unit with a 27 ohm resistor set-up  -  install an 8 ohm resistor and a voltage regulator to achieve better smoke?

I have never tried this, however at the last Lionel 1/2 price sale, I did buy a couple of spare voltage regulators to try adding variable intensity smoke to upgrades, just haven't gotten around to wiring one in.  My intent is actually to allow folks to turn down the smoke and not necessarily for maximum smoke.

A bonus of the voltage regulator should be consistent smoke volume at varying track voltages.  However, with judicious tuning of the smoke resistor value and assuming a constant track voltage, you should be able to achieve similar maximum smoke volume with the dumb smoke unit and the standard R2LC smoke output.

I ordered a Supper-Chuffer and Chuff-Generator for my E-6 with 610-8057-200 upgrade and expect them in the mail Monday.  I hope they fit... I will determine if they will fit in the Camelback before ordering another set.

Next question is on the smoke resistors.  After reviewing, the "new" 640-2500-200 smoke unit, which I already have on order, has a 16 ohm resistor .  A 40% reduction (27 to 16) is perhaps a bit more than tweaking. Will connecting this to the R2LC output cause any problems?

Thanks

AlanRail posted:

 

There needs to be a Lionel/MTH Internal Electronics for Dummies book.

 

There are a few chapters in Modern Toy Train Repair and Maintenance (by that "other" magazine publisher),   which I currently educating myself with.

Jim Harrington posted:

I ordered a Supper-Chuffer and Chuff-Generator for my E-6 with 610-8057-200 upgrade and expect them in the mail Monday.  I hope they fit... I will determine if they will fit in the Camelback before ordering another set.

Next question is on the smoke resistors.  After reviewing, the "new" 640-2500-200 smoke unit, which I already have on order, has a 16 ohm resistor .  A 40% reduction (27 to 16) is perhaps a bit more than tweaking. Will connecting this to the R2LC output cause any problems?

Thanks

You'll want to change the smoke resistor in that smoke unit, 16 ohms is too "stiff", and you'll likely cook the R2LC triac.  I'd go with 20 ohms minimum.  I'd probably recommend starting with a 22 ohm resistor and see if you get enough smoke.

I have grave doubts that the Super-Chuffer will fit in the Camelback, but I don't have one handy right now to look closer at.