New member Needs Help

I've got some ideas, but it's late here, so I'll take a crack at it tomorrow. In the meantime...

• What is the purpose of the layout? (trains run while you drink your beverage of choice? Operating sessions? Something to keep you busy?)
• Aside from the bridges and river, what else do you want your layout to feature? (Any buildings or industries? Rural areas?)
• Which brand of track do you wish to use? There are many choices. For O, I prefer AtlasO because of the available options. Your choice may vary depending on your options.
• How many mainlines do you want? How many spurs? Do you want a yard?
• If you currently own any engines, are they conventional, Lionel TMCC/Legacy or MTH?
• Do you have a budget in mind?

Steve,

Since we are starting from scratch on this layout, there are certain self-imposed guidelines I adhere to to make planning a layout easier. Based on the information you've given so far, I have a rough draft I'm playing with in which the S mainline parallels the O mainline for a bit as it climbs through the hills. This will break up the wedding cake look. On one leg of the layout, we'll make a mountainous area with the briges and river. We can make this a scenic run. The other leg of the layout we can set a small town and yard area where you can switch and make deliveries.

1. So that we are working on the same page, could you please download Scarm. It is a free track planning software and we will be able to share ideas back and forth.

2. In regards to your S scale inventory, what brand of track will you be using? (I would like to keep the track uniform in appearance. For example, if you are using traditional AF track, I would like to use tubular O scale track.) What are the curve radii required to run your S scale engines? (I think if we use 36", you would also have the option to purchase Lionel AF diesels and steamers.) Do you have any S scale accessories that you would like include on the layout? (Bridges, buildings, operating accessories, etc.) Will you be adding any of the Lionel AF Legacy engines to your roster? Do your engines run on AC or DC power? (If you have AC powered engines and decide to purchase Lionel AF with Legacy, we can use the Legacy system to control both S and O gauge trains at the same time. This will play into your electrical fun and I can describe more in detail if this is something you would like to pursue.) 

3. In regards to O scale, are there any accessories that you have seen that you would like to include on your layout?

4. In regards to the layout, as you look into the U shape, is the 8 foot run located on the left or right of the layout?

5. For your mountain area, would you like to model the Blue Ridge or Rocky mountains?

6. Start thinking about industries you would like served and which stores you would like to have.

Given the size available for your layout, I believe we can find an interesting track plan that will mesh O and S together.

• I will download Scarm
• For the S part of the layout I will be using American Models track. I have straight,27 & 24
• The only thing I have are 2 RH Power turnouts, no other accessories
• Engine runs on A/C. I definetly want to use the Legacy system
• 8 foot is to the left  
• Blue Ridge Mountains

Problem with Scarm. Not compatible with my Mac

Steve,

Thanks for the input. I went and looked at the AM track. 27"r would be roughly O-54 and 24"r would be roughly O-48. O brand track that would look similar would be AtlasO, Ross, Gargraves and MTH. Take a look at the different brands for comparison.

S gauge circumference is bigger than I thought. On the part of the layout that is 8' long, I was thinking an up and over figure 8 in the mountains. Somewhere in there you could put a small depot between the S and O mainlines.

I should have a couple of track options available Sunday.

OK, no worries. Scarm doesn't have AM track sections, so we would be free handing the S mainline anyways. I'll toss up ideas and if you want something changed, I'll take care of it and re-post the changes.

I think either Atlas or Gargraves. How do they compare in quality, price and availability. Where do you suggest to buy everything from? Are you in the business, or just a hobbyist? What about the center rail? What does it do?

I am just a hobbyist. Personally, I prefer AtlasO, but you can get the same results with Gargraves. Both are pretty plentiful and with some searching, can be found at reasonable prices.

The third rail (middle rail) in O gauge is the power rail. Either outside rail can be used as the common rail. Lionel Legacy Engines only run on 3 rail track, so if you want to use Legacy, this is the track system you need to use.

Stewart:

I am attaching a sketch of my train table, in case you need it to help me plan the layout. It's 2 4x8s, and I am building the 3x5 section on the lower right today.

I could add a little to the 4 foot section, but if it will work I would like to have the 3 foot space for access.

I attended a train show on Saturday, but only bought a couple of bridges. I await your suggestions before making any more purchases. I looked at what you have done with some other members, and it looks like you really are good at this.

Again, I appreciate your help.

Steve

omg with all that table you could do a killer O layout! im workning with less and did ok!

Steve,

Thanks for the kind words.

I got side tracked yesterday with family, but I'll have some time at work today to play around with the design. I'm trying to stick with the up and over figure 8 for the S mainline. I think if we raise the S mainline above the table, that will help build up the mountain area. My back-up plan will be to create a run with 2 reversing loops on each end.

Please take a little time to look over the Lionel catalog's, specifically at the engines you would like to run. Knowing which engines you are interested in will help with the curve radii for the O mainline. The smallest curve I will be designing with is O-36.

Family comes first.

I will look at the Lionel engines right now

Well the first one I come to is probably one of your favorites considering your forum name,

Chessie System CSX-Heritage Legacy Scale AC6000 #8451, pretty expensive. 

Do I understand correctly that if I use the Legacy controller and the Track Power Control (TPC), I can use any engine?

Can you suggest any engines that are not so expensive? Any other brands to consider?

Yes, the TPC can control conventional engines by varying the voltage to the track.

You can look at MTH for lower cost with the MTH command control in them (PS-2 or 3 in the engines, DCS is the Command System). A DCS TIU (command base) has 2 Fixed Voltage channels and 2 Variable Channels, thus it can control 2 conventional loops with no additional pieces. Those channels can also control MTH command equipped engines. It will not control Legacy engines but can be run with Legacy also on the layout.

You will find numerous people have both systems on the layout.

Williams, Weaver and Atlas also make lower cost train products but they usually will not have Legacy in them. They may have the older Lionel TMCC system which Legacy can control.

MTH makes 2 lines of engines and cars: Premier (Scale) and RailKing (Smaller than scale but generally bigger than Traditional Lionel), and a hybrid; Imperial RailKing Engines which are RailKing size but with added details. Note, Even MTH starter set engines come with command control. Lionel starter sets generally do not and cost more.

Scale engines and cars generally need much wider curves.

Lionel also has Scale and Traditional (smaller) lines with the same differences in curve requirements.

DCS (MTH) can also control TMCC but you still need the TMCC command base and a cable to connect it to DCS.

I like DCS but also have a TMCC system on my layout.

(Lionels TMCC Crane car and matching sound work caboose are the best operating cars ever made.)

Steve,

If you don't mind, could you hold off on building the bench work until we get the track plan in order? It might save you some future headache.

Stewart,

I just finished adding the 3x5 section. It can be revised if necessary.

As far as the control, I just wanted to be sure that whatever engine we choose, will work with Legacy or some other method you might recommend.

Steve

Steve,

Not to worry, Legacy can control it all and we'll make plans for DCS in the electrical phase, even if you decide you don't want it later.

At this point, I'm trying to get the best track plan for the S gauge mainline. We will be able to play with forced perspective with S being smaller than O. The track configurations drawn below use AtlasO O-45 curves, which is close to the 24"r/48"d S gauge track you have. The blue line is the benchwork drawn to the dimensions you gave. As you can see, 24"r/48"d will eat up a lot of space. We will raise the S mainline 6" from the top of the benchwork allowing room underneath for the O mainline. I'd like the S mainline to vary in height to give it a taller mountainous look.

Here are 4 options that would work:

1. The figure 8 is placed on the left leg of the layout. It will be an up and over configuration.

2. The dogbone configuration (upper right) will run along the back of the layout. It can remain on the same plane or work its way up and over. This track plan will give us access to the legs for the O track plan.

3. & 4. A dogbone along the left leg and the back of the layout. The left leg will cover any O track that runs under it, but will allow for an L shaped O track plan. It is currently depicted with 2 reverse loops which can be removed, allowing the track to run back under itself in a tunnel.

Once we lock in the S track plan, the O track plan will fall quickly into place.

Stewart,

So what you sent was for the S guage only? Am I supposed to choose? If so, I think 3&4 sounds good.

Do you have any idea how many AtlasO O45 curves I will need? Also what and how many other pieces of track and turnouts. I may be asking prematurely, but I would like to start looking for it at a good price. Would you buy used? What power supply should i be looking for?

Steve

Stewart,

After reading the post from Russell I took a look at MTH. Engines look great, probably RailKing, reasonably priced, and DCS looks very interesting.

Steve

Steve, the track plans I posted represent possible S gauge track plans. Scarm only has 20"r S gauge track and the radius track you own is larger, so I used comparable O radius track. Since you like 3/4, I will mock up a dogbone track plan that runs over/under itself. If you see anything you would like to change, let me know.

Also what and how many other pieces of track and turnouts.

For the S gauge track plan, it looks like you will need enough 24"r track to make two complete circles, and roughly 16 pieces of 10" straight. A couple of the 10" sections will need to be custom cut.

I may be asking prematurely, but I would like to start looking for it at a good price. Would you buy used? What power supply should i be looking for?

Used track is fine. If you are able to, inspect the track before purchasing. The buy/sell forum and eBay are good places to look for used track. Any manufacturers AC transformer will work.

Here's a snapshot of what I'm thinking along the lines of. The upper mainline represents the S gauge track plan. The bottom mainline would be the O gauge mainline. I think this gives a rough idea of how much real estate the S gauge takes.

Keep in mind this is a rough draft. 

Wow, now I can visualize it, it looks great. I do understand it's not complete.

Just for comparison, this is what the layout would look like with an S gauge figure 8 and two O gauge mainlines. More of the layout would be visible and I could connect the two O gauge mainlines. The drawback would be the space required. Are you restricted to the dimensions, or could you add a few inches to the size of the layout?

Stewart,

Well, I like the first one better, but the second one seems to have more going on in O guage. Is it just one line? I really want 2 trains running in O guage.

However, I can not add much. An inch or two I could do. How much do you need on the right side for the second track? Couldn't that whole section be shifted left, it looks like there is room.

Today I bought some Atlas O 36 and straight so I can start visualizing what you are showing me. I looked at some engines on eBay. Railking Protosound 2 or 3 with DCS.

Looks like they can be bought for $200-300. Any thoughts on that?

Steve

Skatz- When measuring, don't forget to include space for pilot overhang, and cab kickout in the beginning of your straights. I.e. too close too a wall and a loco may hit it coming out of the turn. I.e. Locos, in curves, and a bit into the straights, cut a wider path.

Stewart:

In the drawings from 8/12 one shows the 5 ft section on the right, the other view on the left. The 5 ft section is on the right.

I tried laying out my S track as shown,  but either I don't have enough track, or I did it wrong.

Yesterday I bought

welcome to the wonderful world of 3 rail!

Hi Steve,

I've been busy with work and house inspections, so I sat down this morning to try to tie the 2 layouts I've shown so far together.

In order to fit the S gauge track, I've borrowed 6" from the right leg for the left leg. You still have 3' in the middle.

To incorporate the water, we can build a river from the back of the layout to inside the innermost loop of track.

You will have 1 S gauge mainline that runs up and over itself. You will have 2 O gauge mainlines. The outer O gauge mainline can either remain independent of the inner line or can be connected. The inner line currently has 2 reverse loops built into it. Those can be removed. A couple of siding can be placed in the middle of the layout.

Let me know what you think and where you would like to make changes.

Another thought I have is that we could raise the S gauge mainline 2 or 3  feet above the O gauge mainline and make it a shelf layout. That would expose the complete layout for more O gauge track and scenery, but removes the integrated look of the two gauges.

Stewart:

I like it as is. 2 or 3 foot higher would not work. I will have to find O45 track. Having trouble setting up the S line. How do I translate the O sizes to use the correct S curves. Did you figure the S line with the track I have?

For now, can I use my transformer to run both S and O together?

Steve

the simple answer on the transformers is no

Stewart:

A few more things. 4 foot section is on the left. I could add 1 foot if absolutely necessary, but I would rather not.

Based upon the plan as it currently exists I count O36-23, O45-20, Straight-26, LT-O36-2, RT-O36-1, and LT-O45-1. I have included the unmarked short ones that I assume have to be cut?? How about the unmarked long ones?

Steve

Just saw your answer about the transformer. Keeping in mind that I will eventually buy the MTH DCS system, what should I get to go along with the American Models transformer which I guess, according to your answer will only power the S line.

I think most AF-Ss are AC engines, I use an old AF 18b to power 2 loops on one of my Lionel O layouts. It does not work well for some locos with modern L electronics. They just don't like it, bells, horns switch on/off non stop, one hotbox car doesn't work, another, it burnt out the board. My modern L transformers(not tmcc/leg.) will not fire horns, etc. on my old stuff, my old transformers will not fire horns, etc. on my new stuff.  My point is, I think power selection is more about age of your trains and what functions/accessories (horns/whistle/bell etc) you want to be able to use? With a willingness to fabricate electrical almost anything is possible.

Old systems(conventional) we adjusted the voltage to the track, new digital systems give full power to the track and "talk" to each loco, adjusting power and options from in each loco, so almost any power supply can be used. Some of the new systems can run an old school loco too, but by copying the actions of a conventional transformer, one at a time(without blocks), no fancy tricks. New locos can sense if its digital or conv. being supplied and act accordingly. Old locos can have an digital control board added too. I don't know how AF triggered its bells/whistles/horns (Lionel uses a DC offset along side the AC). The above description is a bit simple, incomplete, and may have a minor mistake, or two, but was written to give a basic understanding, its not a manual. I hope this clears up things at least a little for you, rather than muddying the water.

Chessie's planning is very nice, I would have problems waiting to build too....there is still the floor for a "motivational loop" till your done.

Chessie's planning is very nice, I would have problems waiting to build too....there is still the floor for a "motivational loop" till your done.

 

Adriatic has hit the nail on the head. I know how much you (Steve) want to build and start running engines on your new layout, but a little restraint is needed. When your train set comes in, set up a temporary loop and play with it to get a feel for O gauge engines. Since your new engine is Proto2 (nice score by the way), I would recommend going to the MTH website and reading through the DCS manuals and also reading through the DCS forum. Also, find Barry. He has written an extensive manual for DCS which he sells.

In reference to the S gauge mainline, we will only be using the 24"r curves. The O-45 track was used to show the approximate location of where the mainline would run. What I need you to do is form a complete circle of 24"r track and place it on the left leg as it is now to see if we need to add any width to that portion of the layout. If you are able, take a picture of the track so I can get a sense of how it fits on your benchwork. I may try to tweak the loops for better flow, but as it stands, you will need 27 pieces of the 24"r S-48 track sections. I will have to calculate how many pieces of 12" track you need. Please list all of the pieces of track you have. (e.g. 24"r - xx, 12" straight - xx, etc.) As for the 27"r curved track, you could either sell it to help pay for other track needed, or save it for use on a temporary layout.

I have looked at the American Models website for information on your transformer. I cannot find any documentation on the how the AM transformer works. Since you will need to power three loops and will need to purchase at least one more power supply, I would suggest to use the AM transformer for the S gauge mainline only.

You indicated you liked the current plan is it currently is. If you feel this is the finalized plan that you would like to have, reply FINALIZE IT. I'll then provide a complete list of O gauge tracked required. Due to the way I needed to show the bridges and tunnels, I used 10" track. What I plan for you to use will be 40" track which can be purchased in bulk. This should save you a couple of dollars and also maximize electrical continuity.

Just as a heads up, I would like you to go to your local hardware store and price out 1" insulating foamboard. They should come in various sizes. This foamboard will be placed over the benchwork and under the track. This will enable you to cut out and shape the lake and river. It can also be contoured for any terrain variances.

Since you will have a lake and river, start thinking about buildings and indutries that would support that scene. For example, a small grocery store, a bait and tackle store, or maybe a hotel for tourists.

Attached are pictures of a small layout I created for some inspiration and to show how I sculpted the foamboard for the water.

Stewart,

I will set up the temporary loop as you suggested, and read through the DCS manuals. I will also get Barry's book.

As far as the S track I have 24"r-12, and straight-24 (I also have 27"-12 which I will put away for now as you suggested). I will buy more 24" unless you can come up with something that uses what I have.

I await your suggestion on a power supply for the O tracks.

I like the current plan, but I will wait to hear from you when YOU think I should finalize it, perhaps incorporating any ideas you think are worth including from Atlas or Gargraves.

The foamboard is already in place. You'll see it when I send you the picture you requested later today. The picture you sent does not show the water area very well perhaps due to the reflection of the flash.

Steve

Here is the picture you requested