Bob, the first time the shell comes off and you put those driveshafts back together, you have a 1 in 4 chance of having that situation. In any case, in the real world, they would get out of sync. Also, every other articulated Lionel locomotive I have has the articulated sound set, including newer ones like the Allegheny and the VL-BB. IMO, this is just a gross oversight.
gunrunnerjohn posted:Bob, the first time the shell comes off and you put those driveshafts back together, you have a 1 in 4 chance of having that situation. In any case, in the real world, they would get out of sync. Also, every other articulated Lionel locomotive I have has the articulated sound set, including newer ones like the Allegheny and the VL-BB. IMO, this is just a gross oversight.
No articulated sounds, both driver sets in sync, no articulated sounds, and that ugly grey in instead of graphite? Swing and a miss. For some $1600-$1700 they should have done a lot better. Done with pre-orders forever.
I'd really like to see the D&RG version with the greenish boiler. The catalog picture looked awesome.
Re: sounds: Is it possible that the sounds will be develop out of sync as the engine runs a bit? The video posted is only a few minutes long on a test track with the engine just moving back and forth.
Paul Kallus posted:Re: sounds: Is it possible that the sounds will be develop out of sync as the engine runs a bit? The video posted is only a few minutes long on a test track with the engine just moving back and forth.
Doubt it. I've seen the video of the Pilot version, the 49er, and the 3985. They all appear to be in sync with no articulated sounds. It's very clear when you start up the VL Big Boy that it has an articulated sound set.
The MTH articulated sounds set goes in and out of sync very nicely (as a real simple articulated loco would). I think Lionel messed this one up.
Bummer.
Paul Kallus posted:I'd really like to see the D&RG version with the greenish boiler. The catalog picture looked awesome.
Re: sounds: Is it possible that the sounds will be develop out of sync as the engine runs a bit? The video posted is only a few minutes long on a test track with the engine just moving back and forth.
I have a green drgw and a black drgw on the way. Tues or Wed is the arrival date. If no pics up by then, i will add them.
Just looked at the older vl challenger i have 3989... it has drivers out of sync and has the out of sync sounds up to speed step about 14, then they sync up.
I also just tested my daylight ac9. It has drivers in sync... but has the out of sync sounds...
So I preorder this and now I’m regretting it. How can you make a rerun of a vision line engine that doesn’t have articulated sounds? Visionline is suppose to be the top of the line for Lionel. Last time preordering. I was going to preorder some stuff in my he new catalog, but this engine has changed my mind.
yankspride4 posted, and that ugly grey in instead of graphite? Swing and a miss.
Hi Yank... i was like whoa also when i first saw the 3985 and the lighter smokebox... it looks like a light graphite to me... its supposed to match the real 3985 in modern excursion colors... so i looked at that...
It looks exactly like that...
So the color is correct according to modern photos of the 3985...
The chuff is a headscratcher... i am waiting for mine to show up and tested before i pass opinion. These VL challengers had many upgrades, no longer an umbilical wire to hook up and so will see what its like...
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The previous VL Challenger also had a wireless drawbar, that's not new. Truthfully, virtually all the Lionel steam has had the wireless drawbar for many years. There are a few exceptions, the Legacy B6 comes to mind.
gunrunnerjohn posted:The previous VL Challenger also had a wireless drawbar, that's not new. Truthfully, virtually all the Lionel steam has had the wireless drawbar for many years. There are a few exceptions, the Legacy B6 comes to mind.
No... in addition to that... there was a umbilical wire to hook up UNDER the drawbar... in the first run VL challengers...
Its fresh in my mind. Had to hook mine up today...
THAT is supposed to be gone now... among other improvements...
This was in the TCA museum presentation.
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Bob posted:gunrunnerjohn posted:All the videos I have seen don't have the articulated sounds. Did they really leave out the articulation in the sound set? How did that get out the door?
The videos I've seen (including the one posted above in this thread) show the siderods of the front and rear driver sets in perfect sync. In this case, the chuffs would also be in perfect sync so a non-articulated sound set would be correct. Maybe Lionel held them in N.C. so they could adjust the drivers to match the sound set. Or maybe not.
I know for sure there are no new Lionel locomotives in my future.
I haven't seen any O scale/gauge Big Boy or Challenger models with one motor where the rods actually go in and out of sync. Think most everyone is fine with the sound system doing it electronically. Don't think any of my friends HO articulated locomotives do either.
Some early and custom motored articulated 0 scale engines have two independent motors which run each engine (read; driver chassis) at their own individual traction rate.
I noticed the same thing on the sounds. I did want to throw this in, found these stickers on the shipping carton of my 3985 version. Hopefully this is a step in the right direction for Lionel
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zhubl posted:I noticed the same thing on the sounds. I did want to throw this in, found these stickers on the shipping carton of my 3985 version. Hopefully this is a step in the right direction for Lionel
Keep it. It’s a RARE Collectors item. lol
zhubl posted:I noticed the same thing on the sounds. I did want to throw this in, found these stickers on the shipping carton of my 3985 version. Hopefully this is a step in the right direction for Lionel
Except its seems in this case the quality check failed.
Tom Tee posted:Some early and custom motored articulated 0 scale engines have two independent motors which run each engine (read; driver chassis) at their own individual traction rate.
Have never seen that in a Lionel, MTH or Sunset scale piece. They all seem to go with the driveshaft. Of course the COOLEST thing, "Spinning The Drivers" Is impossible with these #%$&@ rubber tires!
BobbyD posted:Tom Tee posted:Some early and custom motored articulated 0 scale engines have two independent motors which run each engine (read; driver chassis) at their own individual traction rate.
Have never seen that in a Lionel, MTH or Sunset scale piece. They all seem to go with the driveshaft. Of course the COOLEST thing, "Spinning The Drivers" Is impossible with these #%$&@ rubber tires!
I know for sure the LM Big Boy from 2010 had dual motors. I’d suspect all of the LM articulated locomotives have dual motors (ex. Big boy, Challenger, T1…) I also know that if you take the eight off of the front engine that motor will take off as the rear motor is the one that has the encoder well on it.
I just want to see/hear one accelerate from a a stop to a good track speed and hear if the chuff changes
Understand, my frame of reference is historic brass two rail and the efforts of custom engine reworking vendors.
Some of these are stratospheric in price and miniscule in volume.
The nicest 0 scale Big Boys were complete in absolutely every detail including an engineer with hand on throttle positioned according to speed. Only four made and rolled out at the Denver PA 0 scale show for an eye poping $30,000 each twenty years ago.
Nice write up in the 0 Scale News rag 48/'.
Does it have the kinematic coupling between engine and tender?
Folks: If you're unhappy with this model for any reason, I'd recommend refusing the item from your dealer......and then let him/her deal with Lionel directly.
As the person spending 1600-1700 bucks, we should bear NO risk in this transaction and should expect the product to look, sound, and function properly.
I have no way to prove this and it is PURE conjecture on my part, but if everything else on the model works properly, the hold up/delay on these might have been the sound....and that after pondering what to do, Big Orange decided it was too expensive to fix and sent them out anyway.....hoping/knowing that many will drink the 1600 - 1700 dollar Kool Aid.
MartyE posted:With BTO, if it didn't sell well enough it wouldn't have been made. We can sit here and say how ugly it is but in the end they must of had enough interest to have them produced. Not my cup of tea either but more power to them if they can sell them.
What do you think is the minimum production numbers needed to cover the decorating costs? 25 units? 50 units? 100 units?
zhubl posted:BobbyD posted:Tom Tee posted:Some early and custom motored articulated 0 scale engines have two independent motors which run each engine (read; driver chassis) at their own individual traction rate.
Have never seen that in a Lionel, MTH or Sunset scale piece. They all seem to go with the driveshaft. Of course the COOLEST thing, "Spinning The Drivers" Is impossible with these #%$&@ rubber tires!
I know for sure the LM Big Boy from 2010 had dual motors. I’d suspect all of the LM articulated locomotives have dual motors (ex. Big boy, Challenger, T1…) I also know that if you take the eight off of the front engine that motor will take off as the rear motor is the one that has the encoder well on it.
As I said, Lionel, MTH, and Sunset Scale articulated locomotives. This thread is about the new Vision Line Challenger.
Not about any Lionmaster units.
Berkshire President posted:Folks: If you're unhappy with this model for any reason, I'd recommend refusing the item from your dealer......and then let him/her deal with Lionel directly.
As the person spending 1600-1700 bucks, we should bear NO risk in this transaction and should expect the product to look, sound, and function properly.
I have no way to prove this and it is PURE conjecture on my part, but if everything else on the model works properly, the hold up/delay on these might have been the sound....and that after pondering what to do, Big Orange decided it was too expensive to fix and sent them out anyway.....hoping/knowing that many will drink the 1600 - 1700 dollar Kool Aid.
Ditto.
Is there something I am missing regarding the articulated sound? The previous version had it or not? These are the features in the catalog. 
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Every past articulated Lionel has done has had it.
Alabama Joe posted:Is there something I am missing regarding the articulated sound? The previous version had it or not? These are the features in the catalog.
Not sure what point your trying to make Joe but the bigboy had articulated sound and the features are the same
Union Pacific Big Boy
- LEGACY Control System equipped – able to run in LEGACY Control mode, in TrainMaster Command Control mode, or in Conventional mode with a standard transformer
- Odyssey II Speed Control with On/Off switch
- LEGACY RailSounds sound system featuring:-CrewTalk dialogue and TowerCom announcements, CrewTalk dialog and TowerCom announcements, each with different scenarios depending on whether the locomotive is in motion or stopped-Six official railroad speeds with Crew-Talk dialog-DynaChuff synchronized chuffing that shifts through 32 levels of intensity as the locomotive gains speed-LEGACY "Real-Time Quilling Whistle" control with instant response for realistic signature "quilling" and correctly timed warning signals-Single hit or continuous mechanical bell sounds-Sequence Control plays the sound effects of an entire trip, including warning sounds and announcements, based on the movement and speed of the locomotive-Current speed and fuel dialog, refueling sound effects-Four-chuffs per drive wheel revolution-New! Dual Sounds (or Stereo Sounds)--With a sound system equipped in the locomotive as well as the tender, Dual Sound enhances sound realism and localizes a wide variety of authentic sound effects
- IR Sensor-equipped
- Powerful maintenance-free motor with momentum flywheel
- Wireless Tether connection between locomotive and tender
- New! Depleting Coal Load in tender responds to actual running time, engine speed and labor
- ElectroCoupler on rear of tender
- High level of separately applied detail parts
- Directional lighting including operating headlight and back-up light on rear of tender
- Illuminated classification lights on the front of locomotive
- Traction tires
- Interior illumination in cab
- Die-cast metal locomotive body, pilot, and trucks
- New! Blowdown Steam on each side of the firebox
- New! Whistle Steam smoke effect in sync with whistle sound
- New! Dual Smoke--Each stack is equipped with its own smoke unit, released in sync with dual chuff sounds
- Die-cast metal tender body and trucks
- High level of separately applied metal details
- Separately applied builder's plates
- 4 Fan-driven smoke units
- Adjustable smoke output
- Authentically detailed cab interior
- Glowing firebox in cab
- Glowing ashpan
- Cab window "glass"
- Engineer/Fireman figures
So don’t beat up the old guy here, but I am trying to understand the issue on Articulated sounds.
The previous version of the VisionLine Challenger did not have articulated sound. Correct?
Articulated Engines released after the first run of the VisionLine Challengers do have that. So the assumption is, this release should have it also. So I am on the same page as everyone else now?
By the way, I have two of the new Challengers coming.
Alabama Joe posted:So don’t beat up the old guy here, but I am trying to understand the issue on Articulated sounds.
The previous version of the VisionLine Challenger did not have articulated sound. Correct?
Articulated Engines released after the first run of the VisionLine Challengers do have that. So the assumption is, this release should have it also. So I am on the same page as everyone else now?
By the way, I have two of the new Challengers coming.
The previous VL Challenger had articulated chuff. Here's an example.
I can get over the grey being too light. I could paint that one day if I wish. The sound set and the drivers being synced up kills me.
yankspride4 posted:Alabama Joe posted:So don’t beat up the old guy here, but I am trying to understand the issue on Articulated sounds.
The previous version of the VisionLine Challenger did not have articulated sound. Correct?
Articulated Engines released after the first run of the VisionLine Challengers do have that. So the assumption is, this release should have it also. So I am on the same page as everyone else now?
By the way, I have two of the new Challengers coming.
The previous VL Challenger had articulated chuff. Here's an example.
I can get over the grey being too light. I could paint that one day if I wish. The sound set and the drivers being synced up kills me.
Killing me to yankspride visionline is the best of best and they do miss the proper chuff. After hearing yours I am even more upset.
Alabama Joe posted:So don’t beat up the old guy here, but I am trying to understand the issue on Articulated sounds.
The previous version of the VisionLine Challenger did not have articulated sound. Correct?
Articulated Engines released after the first run of the VisionLine Challengers do have that. So the assumption is, this release should have it also. So I am on the same page as everyone else now?
By the way, I have two of the new Challengers coming.
I wasn't beating up the old guy, I just did not understand what you were saying. I was pointing out there descriptions for legacy are pretty generic and you expect them to do the right sounds for the proper engines.
Alabama Joe posted:So don’t beat up the old guy here, but I am trying to understand the issue on Articulated sounds.
The previous version of the VisionLine Challenger did not have articulated sound. Correct?
Articulated Engines released after the first run of the VisionLine Challengers do have that. So the assumption is, this release should have it also. So I am on the same page as everyone else now?
From the Lionel page for the previous VL Challenger.
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yankspride4 posted:Alabama Joe posted:So don’t beat up the old guy here, but I am trying to understand the issue on Articulated sounds.
The previous version of the VisionLine Challenger did not have articulated sound. Correct?
Articulated Engines released after the first run of the VisionLine Challengers do have that. So the assumption is, this release should have it also. So I am on the same page as everyone else now?
By the way, I have two of the new Challengers coming.
The previous VL Challenger had articulated chuff. Here's an example.
I can get over the grey being too light. I could paint that one day if I wish. The sound set and the drivers being synced up kills me.
Hey! that's my video! The older vision line engines were great. I found 3 of them over the years, so I passed on these.
gunrunnerjohn posted:Alabama Joe posted:So don’t beat up the old guy here, but I am trying to understand the issue on Articulated sounds.
The previous version of the VisionLine Challenger did not have articulated sound. Correct?
Articulated Engines released after the first run of the VisionLine Challengers do have that. So the assumption is, this release should have it also. So I am on the same page as everyone else now?
From the Lionel page for the previous VL Challenger.
What would it take to make the sounds right on the new Challenger? New boards?
gunrunnerjohn posted:Alabama Joe posted:So don’t beat up the old guy here, but I am trying to understand the issue on Articulated sounds.
The previous version of the VisionLine Challenger did not have articulated sound. Correct?
Articulated Engines released after the first run of the VisionLine Challengers do have that. So the assumption is, this release should have it also. So I am on the same page as everyone else now?
From the Lionel page for the previous VL Challenger.
So these new VL challengers did not call out articulated chuffs in features? Well, there you have it...
I also noticed they didnt call out the scale pilot wheels either, but when i asked, Lionel said they would come in the box also...
Well, we'll see if the articulated sounds are also in the box. 
Just a thought but, has ANYBODY actually ask the folks at Lionel about this articulated sound mistake? If so, what is the "official" response?
Hot Water posted:Just a thought but, has ANYBODY actually ask the folks at Lionel about this articulated sound mistake? If so, what is the "official" response?
I sent an email to Nicholas Smith asking that same question. But someone here may have a better source.
Hot Water posted:Just a thought but, has ANYBODY actually ask the folks at Lionel about this articulated sound mistake? If so, what is the "official" response?
Probably not...given that the Challengers starting showing up at dealers late Thursday and Friday. I plan on calling Monday.
Most likely Lionel used the standard chuff since they only used the single smoke puff. They go together. A more detailed product description would certainly help since we all know and assumed the articulated chuff is now a standard item on this style vision line locomotive.
I didn't notice a double chuff from the big boy in milwaukee. Could it be because they are now burning oil?
