New Vision Challenger

Hot Water posted:

zhubl posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Last, but not least, the actual product video from Lionel where Ryan was describing the VL Challenger for 2018.

OOPS!  Looks like those drivers slipped out of sync!

While the in sync thing is a current concern I also would like to know on 3985 what happened to the white paint on the pilot wheels. Also the “Union Pacific” in the tender and the cab # under the cab window look more like a dark grey or silver color. 

For what it's worth, the big UP steam locomotives had "bright aluminum" paint on the center hubs on the engine truck wheels, plus the covers on all the journal boxes on the trailing truck & tender. Also, all the numbering and lettering on the cab sides and tender, are NOT white paint. The UP used a sort of "silver" or "lettering gray" for all the lettering and numbering.

Thanks for clarification I did wonder on what was actually used for lettering. But as stated now correct color is different from VL Big Boy and the V1 844. Still would’ve like to have the “bright Aluminum” paint on the front pilot hubs. Suppose if I could match the paint I can do that myself 

How can that be a first run VL Challenger if the #3985 was not part of the first run?

My 1996 RK Challenger has out of sync sounds...... I would expect any articulated to have the same out of the box.

Tom

Berkshire President posted:

How can that be a first run VL Challenger if the #3985 was not part of the first run?

Because they put the numbers on it. 

Super O Bob posted:

Berkshire President posted:

How can that be a first run VL Challenger if the #3985 was not part of the first run?

Because they put the numbers on it. 

If true....and I'm not saying that I agree it is...then they have clearly misrepresented their product....and have likely falsely advertised.

Phoebe Snow Route posted:

Shawn_Chronister posted: 

...I sure hope Lionel makes the sounds right for them.

Probably not since the Challengers are shipping to dealers as we speak.  The time to address the issue was when they were at Lionel.

Whether they are shipping or not Lionel is obligated to fix this issue that is clearly wrong on their Vision Line which is supposed to be the excellence in the hobby. Does not look good for them to not fix the issue. They will lose my business again I stopped buying them in the 90's with all there quality issues and I will not hesitate to do it it again even though the legacy stuff is great. I do not need to spend my money on subpar service and inaccurate representation for top of the line prices.

Unfortunately I suspect that ship has sailed. I don’t expect them to change the sounds if they are incorrect. 

Then sail the Challengers right back to Big Orange if you find the sound unacceptable.

Berkshire President posted:

Super O Bob posted:

Berkshire President posted:

How can that be a first run VL Challenger if the #3985 was not part of the first run?

Because they put the numbers on it. 

If true....and I'm not saying that I agree it is...then they have clearly misrepresented their product....and have likely falsely advertised.

False advertized?  Easy there...  from an engineering prototype?

Its really clear from an eye you can easily spot the differences between the two runs.  Do you have the first run?

Berkshire President posted:

Then sail the Challengers right back to Big Orange if you find the sound unacceptable.

Actually you all convinced me there is no issue with the sounds at all.  This run has the drivers set in sync, where the first run had them out of sync.

So in-sync sounds are prototypical for this model, if the drivers are in-sync.

So when my challengers show up, i will check if they are in sync.  I have 4 challengers on the way...  so if they are all in sync, then i am happy...  because it will be correct sounds...

I still have 3989 from the first run...  so will compare the differences...

Also gives me a reason to keep my 3989...  however its hard to look at that tall boiler!

Super O Bob posted:

 

OOPS!  Looks like those drivers slipped out of sync!

Sorry...  this is ACTUALLY a FIRST RUN VL challenger!  You can tell by the boiler and the oversize tender lettering!

But AGAIN, i said this first run had out of sync drivers and out of sync sounds.

 

BUZZ, WRONG, thanks for playing!

Here's the video I took that clip from, can you explain why Ryan is confused as to what version of locomotive he's demonstrating?  The title sure looks like it says the 2018 version!

gunrunnerjohn posted:

S

BUZZ, WRONG, thanks for playing!

 

Really?  Maybe you should know what your talking about.  You didnt know there was an umbilical to connect in the first run.

Look at the silver axles on front pilot.  This is clearly a first run engine dressed up.  There are several other things to look at that match run 1.  There not on the 3985 in the video.  Just look.

Super O Bob posted:

Berkshire President posted:

Super O Bob posted:

Berkshire President posted:

How can that be a first run VL Challenger if the #3985 was not part of the first run?

Because they put the numbers on it. 

If true....and I'm not saying that I agree it is...then they have clearly misrepresented their product....and have likely falsely advertised.

False advertized?  Easy there...  from an engineering prototype?

Its really clear from an eye you can easily spot the differences between the two runs.  Do you have the first run?

Bob

I believe falsely advertised could be true, here is Lionel explanation of the vision line authentic and gold standard means they did meet expectations of their product based on the true to life representation and should fix this at their expense.

From the company’s earliest days, Lionel has been celebrated for its ability to create the most innovative, ground-breaking model train products in the world. We rededicated ourselves to this lofty mission with the introduction of the Lionel LEGACY Control System^®.

And now, with that platform in place, we’re taking yet another step forward. This year, Lionel proudly introduces a line of the most authentic, technically advanced trains and accessories ever made – a line of products that enable you to fulfill the promise … the Vision ... of LEGACY. So, it’s natural that we are calling this the Lionel VISION Line^TM. In this collection of breathtaking products, you’ll find scale steam engines with more mechanical and operational realism than any you’ve ever seen or run. Scale diesels that demonstrate the same detailing and characteristics found in their “real life” counterparts. Operating rolling stock and interactive accessories that enhance the model train experience like never before. And these introductory offerings are only the beginning. From this year on, Lionel fans can look to our VISION Line to experience the “gold standard” in model train engineering, manufacturing, and most of all… VISION. In each successive year we will unveil a selection of products that will elevate our line to levels never before reached in our industry. The Vision Line is what Joshua Lionel Cowen always envisioned Lionel would be – the ultimate destination for the very best in model railroading.

Berkshire President posted:

Super O Bob posted:

Berkshire President posted:

How can that be a first run VL Challenger if the #3985 was not part of the first run?

Because they put the numbers on it. 

If true....and I'm not saying that I agree it is...then they have clearly misrepresented their product....and have likely falsely advertised.

In one of the videos Lionel posted describing the 2018 VL Challengers and a history of UP Challengers in general, a Clinchfield Challenger was displayed and Ryan Kunkle said: "What you are seeing in front of me is actually our engineering sample which we've cobbled together from bits and pieces of the old Challenger that we've done so there will be some detail changes and and paint differences and so forth between what you're seeing here in front of me and what you'll ultimately have delivered."  Unfortunately, "what you'll ultimately have delivered" is what makes pre-ordering risky.  

Bottom line, who knows what they actually made.

JFC454 posted:

Berkshire President posted:

Super O Bob posted:

Berkshire President posted:

How can that be a first run VL Challenger if the #3985 was not part of the first run?

Because they put the numbers on it. 

If true....and I'm not saying that I agree it is...then they have clearly misrepresented their product....and have likely falsely advertised.

In one of the videos Lionel posted describing the 2018 VL Challengers and a history of UP Challengers in general, a Clinchfield Challenger was displayed and Ryan Kunkle said: "What you are seeing in front of me is actually our engineering sample which we've cobbled together from bits and pieces of the old Challenger that we've done so there will be some detail changes and and paint differences and so forth between what you're seeing here in front of me and what you'll ultimately have delivered."  Unfortunately, "what you'll ultimately have delivered" is what makes pre-ordering risky.  

I get that on that paint....but not the (presumed) lack of Articulated Sounds....when every other Articulated that Lionel has made in the past 15 or so years has had that Sound Feature.

Now, is it time to chill out and see whether or not the sound feature is actually present and working?  Yep. 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Bottom line, who knows what they actually made.

Hi John...  ive been out cutting grass (10acers) all afternoon and i have regretted calling u out...  i enjoy banter with you...

I agree this could go either way.  Im in fact finding mode now...  if all of these come with drivers in sync, maybe this sound set is intentional.  If some show up (like first run) with different driver positions, then the sounds should be articulated.

The picture of the mockup 3985 is clearly based on the first vision line challenger.  The boiler looks like it sits higher than the JLC challenger.  The tender has UP lettering that is too big.  There are other differences that caught my eye too, its clearly not this run of challenger...

Have a good one...

If the physical drivers are not all in sync, maybe the missing articulated audio is still intentional.

Wondering if you make the drivers out of sink. Will the engine have the out of sink sounds.

It’s all very disappointing.   I’ve been wanting one of these for a very long time.   So much so I pulled the trigger on 2.   And now I’m totally regretful.   I expect to get what’s advertised and I’m not just talking about the soundest issue.   Just Lionel shortfalls  in general.  In a BTO world anything less is unacceptable. These kind of mistakes kill companies.   I truly hope they address this head on and set the record straight.  I don’t even mean fixing it but address our concerns.   I’ll give them that chance but if they don’t I think that a big up yours to those of us that spend countless dollars hoping we get what we we’re sold.   

If this locomotive model has only one motor, the mechanical phasing of the front and rear engines, crossheads, rods and driving wheels is fixed and cannot change because both engines would be driven by one driveshaft. Therefore, the manufacturer has to chose a mechanical phasing (which could differ or be zero) and decide whether to have the correct (constant) chuff phasing for each engine or to allow the chuff phasing to vary (electronically), in which case the chuffing would not agree with the fixed mechanical phasing. For a single motor and fixed mechanical phasing, Lionel may have decided to have the front and rear engines in phase mechanically (same driver angle on front and rear) and a correct four chuffs per revolution with no out-of-phase chuffing. Another option would have been a difference of one-eighth of a revolution at the driving wheels (again fixed mechanical phasing) so that eight distinct and equally-spaced chuffs per driver revolution (four from each engine) could be programmed and the mechanical and chuff phasings would both be correct, although there still would be no timewise variation in chuff phasing between front and rear engines.

If the locomotive has two motors that are mechanically independent, the motors would not necessarily run at exactly the same rotational speeds or they could be programmed to have a slight timewise variation and differential in their rotational speeds. With this setup, the mechanical phasing and chuffing for both the front and rear engines could be correct at all times while differing with respect to time. However, this would introduce slippage of the drivers - perhaps not the best way to run a model locomotive...

I just wonder whether people aren't expecting too much. I would be satisfied to hear eight chuffs per revolution. Just my opinion.

MELGAR

Just to do some due diligence on my part.. I went and watched some older videos of mine of Legacy articulateds that have had the drivers assembed in sync. Several don't have the out of sync chuff. Not at all saying it's correct but this isn't the first time Lionel has done this on an articulated locomotive after all.

Whats really confusing to me is why the change after getting the previous Challenger and Big Boy right.  

For what it’s worth, my MTH Premier Union Pacific Challenger no. 3976 has the drivers and sounds out of sync.  On the other hand, MTH gave its renumbered Union Pacific Challenger no. 3711 (formerly Union Pacific greyhound Challenger no. 3978) a coal tender rather than the prototypical oil tender.  I have to agree I will not again preorder a BTO item.  I will wait to see the production model.

So I spoke to Lionel and was told the warranty services was still not open from there move and it was supposed to open sometime next week. I gave them my name and phone number and they said they would call me if they decide to open sooner. Not real happy with that response but we will see what happens. I spoke with Aaron so no definitive answer yet. Brian Sheffield it would be nice if you could follow up on the dealer end about this issue please so we can attack this from 2 fronts. I will email you as well.

Shawn_Chronister posted:

So I spoke to Lionel and was told the warranty services was still not open from there move and it was supposed to open sometime next week. I gave them my name and phone number and they said they would call me if they decide to open sooner. Not real happy with that response but we will see what happens. I spoke with Aaron so no definitive answer yet. Brian Sheffield it would be nice if you could follow up on the dealer end about this issue please so we can attack this from 2 fronts. I will email you as well.

I spoke to the same person about 1 week ago regarding the assigned ID issue with the ALCOs.  He (Aaron) told me they were out at least 2 more weeks.  With the ALCOs, he had not heard about the issue at all.  I don't think the people answering the phone have much insight as to what issues are out here on the street. 

With regard to the Challenger, I have not seen this as an acknowledged goof from Lionel.  For all we know, that may be the way it is.  Did Aaron acknowledge a problem or specifics with the Challenger, or give you the "boilerplate" reason they are not open up for RMA service claims yet.

I was thinking, now that it is Monday, someone can give us the official response from Lionel regarding the sound and chuffs on this model.  I'm sure someone who already has it will be on the horn.  This episode makes it bittersweet for those of us waiting by the mailbox.

Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:

Shawn_Chronister posted:

So I spoke to Lionel and was told the warranty services was still not open from there move and it was supposed to open sometime next week. I gave them my name and phone number and they said they would call me if they decide to open sooner. Not real happy with that response but we will see what happens. I spoke with Aaron so no definitive answer yet. Brian Sheffield it would be nice if you could follow up on the dealer end about this issue please so we can attack this from 2 fronts. I will email you as well.

 

With regard to the Challenger, I have not seen this as an acknowledged goof from Lionel.  For all we know, that may be the way it is.  Did Aaron acknowledge a problem or specifics with the Challenger, or give you the "boilerplate" reason they are not open up for RMA service claims yet.

I was thinking, now that it is Monday, someone can give us the official response from Lionel regarding the sound and chuffs on this model.  I'm sure someone who already has it will be on the horn.  This episode makes it bittersweet for those of us waiting by the mailbox.

This was going to be my exact question.   I'll be honest I didn't expect it to be fixed even if it was a goof or a production failure.  I think by all means they should make it right!  whatever right is!  Or have solid explanation of why it is the way it is.   It sounds cheesy but I think we should all kind of stick together on this if we want a fix.   Sadly in todays world the squeaky wheel gets the grease.   PLEASE if you want a fix for this remember to keep you comments professional.   I appreciate everyone who has expressed their concerns here and who will address them with Lionel as well.   Interested to see what happens with this.   Hopefully something positive.

Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:

Shawn_Chronister posted:

So I spoke to Lionel and was told the warranty services was still not open from there move and it was supposed to open sometime next week. I gave them my name and phone number and they said they would call me if they decide to open sooner. Not real happy with that response but we will see what happens. I spoke with Aaron so no definitive answer yet. Brian Sheffield it would be nice if you could follow up on the dealer end about this issue please so we can attack this from 2 fronts. I will email you as well.

I spoke to the same person about 1 week ago regarding the assigned ID issue with the ALCOs.  He (Aaron) told me they were out at least 2 more weeks.  With the ALCOs, he had not heard about the issue at all.  I don't think the people answering the phone have much insight as to what issues are out here on the street. 

With regard to the Challenger, I have not seen this as an acknowledged goof from Lionel.  For all we know, that may be the way it is.  Did Aaron acknowledge a problem or specifics with the Challenger, or give you the "boilerplate" reason they are not open up for RMA service claims yet.

I was thinking, now that it is Monday, someone can give us the official response from Lionel regarding the sound and chuffs on this model.  I'm sure someone who already has it will be on the horn.  This episode makes it bittersweet for those of us waiting by the mailbox.

No this has not been acknowledged as an issue by Lionel yet. But everyone concerned needs to call Lionel and voice their concern. I am sure that is the only we to get an official answer. I would ask your dealers to follow up as well. This could be just as important to them. Well he stated that they were still getting up and running after moving everything from across the street so I am ok with that but I do not want this to brushed under the carpet either. I also stated there were 5 videos showing no articulated chuff on this thread.

The Portland Rose posted:

For what it’s worth, my MTH Premier Union Pacific Challenger no. 3976 has the drivers and sounds out of sync.  On the other hand, MTH gave its renumbered Union Pacific Challenger no. 3711 (formerly Union Pacific greyhound Challenger no. 3978) a coal tender rather than the prototypical oil tender.  I have to agree I will not again preorder a BTO item.  I will wait to see the production model.

I doubt the oil or coal fuel has anything to do with the synchronization of the drivers, it all gets turned into steam.

The fix may be more than contacting Lionel, for the deal is done at the point....and the owner may just have sour grapes.

The resolution MAY be to refuse these from your dealer and then have the dealer deal with Lionel to find a solution.

Have we gotten a definitive test of the new Challenger to be sure there is no articulated sounds?  I'm just having significant difficulty imagining them leaving such a feature out, that's why I ask.

Shawn_Chronister posted:

Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:

Shawn_Chronister posted:

So I spoke to Lionel and was told the warranty services was still not open from there move and it was supposed to open sometime next week. I gave them my name and phone number and they said they would call me if they decide to open sooner. Not real happy with that response but we will see what happens. I spoke with Aaron so no definitive answer yet. Brian Sheffield it would be nice if you could follow up on the dealer end about this issue please so we can attack this from 2 fronts. I will email you as well.

I spoke to the same person about 1 week ago regarding the assigned ID issue with the ALCOs.  He (Aaron) told me they were out at least 2 more weeks.  With the ALCOs, he had not heard about the issue at all.  I don't think the people answering the phone have much insight as to what issues are out here on the street. 

With regard to the Challenger, I have not seen this as an acknowledged goof from Lionel.  For all we know, that may be the way it is.  Did Aaron acknowledge a problem or specifics with the Challenger, or give you the "boilerplate" reason they are not open up for RMA service claims yet.

I was thinking, now that it is Monday, someone can give us the official response from Lionel regarding the sound and chuffs on this model.  I'm sure someone who already has it will be on the horn.  This episode makes it bittersweet for those of us waiting by the mailbox.

 But everyone concerned needs to call Lionel and voice their concern.

Here is the key phrase!

 But everyone concerned needs to call Lionel and voice their concern!Even if yours haven't arrived yet.  Give them a call and polite present your concerns.  The more voices they here the better just make sure they are polite voices!

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Have we gotten a definitive test of the new Challenger to be sure there is no articulated sounds?  I'm just having significant difficulty imagining them leaving such a feature out, that's why I ask.

Was just thinking the same thing.  What would be the correct way to test for this correctly John?

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Have we gotten a definitive test of the new Challenger to be sure there is no articulated sounds?  I'm just having significant difficulty imagining them leaving such a feature out, that's why I ask.

I guess I do not understand what you mean there are videos of new and old on here in about the same slow take off and you can hear the definite difference in the chuff.

They might not address it, but Ryan and Dave are scheduled to have a Facebook Live show today to review of the 2019 Volume 2 Catalog at 4pm ET, so perhaps if enough people ask about the Challenger issue in the chat for today's session, they might acknowledge and/or respond.

What is the difference in the boiler between this run and the previous VL release? I saw it referenced a couple of times but didn't see it explained. I have 3989 from the previous run and was curious about it.

Someone could try emailing Dave Olson. I don't have a dog in the fight or else I would, but I'm hoping the best for you guys! 

I emailed Dave as well and put this thread in the email see what kind of response is given.

I just received a reply from Dave and they said they are aware and will make and official statement later today. So let's wait for that Official Statement.

Gweedo posted:

Wondering if you make the drivers out of sink. Will the engine have the out of sink sounds.

No, the chuff has nothing to do with the drivers relationship to the other set.

MELGAR posted:

If this locomotive model has only one motor, the mechanical phasing of the front and rear engines, crossheads, rods and driving wheels is fixed and cannot change because both engines would be driven by one driveshaft. 

I just wonder whether people aren't expecting too much. I would be satisfied to hear eight chuffs per revolution. Just my opinion.

MELGAR

Like all Lionel (and MTH) scale articulateds this has 1 motor and the 2 sets of drivers are connected by a driveshaft. Both MTH and Lionel would use electronics for the drivers to sound as if they are going in and out of sync. No guest has ever noticed or asked about the second set of drivers going in and out of sync other than the occasional rivet counter who knew it in advance and was looking to stir the pot.