@DoubleDAZ posted:John,
My thought is that it’s better to wire a single long run with larger gauge wire to a terminal strip so you can use smaller gauge wire for the shorter runs from the strip to the power feeds. I have no idea what length defines a long run though. 🤣
Great Thought!
@DoubleDAZ posted:John,
My thought is that it’s better to wire a single long run with larger gauge wire to a terminal strip so you can use smaller gauge wire for the shorter runs from the strip to the power feeds. I have no idea what length defines a long run though. 🤣
That's a good idea with a layout this size. Depending on how many trains will be running at once it may be necessary to extend two TIU channels to each zone marked on the layout for load balancing. Something to consider.
When it comes to wire I tend to follow what the car guys have out there for information, specifically a wire ampacity chart over distance. Amps are amps. So, following Dave's suggestion the wire out to the remote strips can be 14 ga out to about 20 feet, 12 from 20 feet on. All of the drops to the terminal strips under 5 or 6 feet can be 18 ga.
If you want to turn those whisker/siding tracks on and off with DCS you will need to study what effects this will have on the watch dog interaction between the TIU and DCS engines. In short, watch dog signals are generated by the TIU when track power is first applied to a TIU channel. If the engines don't see this watch dog they will come up in conventional mode. There are several long threads on this and @gunrunnerjohn found an elegant solution.
Dan, I think you might have swapped your gauges. 12 is thicker than 14, so does it make sense to run 14 to the terminal strips and then 12 to the drops? Shouldn’t it be the other way around?
Sorry I wasn't clear, Dave. I think I mixed nomenclature.
I meant that from the TIU out to the terminal strips can be 12 ga., or 14 ga if the run is under ~20 feet. Then from the terminal strips to the track connections can be 18 ga if these are 5 feet long or less.
@DoubleDAZ posted:John,
Here's a diagram to generate some conversation regarding how best to wire the layout. It is by no means the best way or the only way, just something for discussion.
As you can probably tell, I put the control panel (gray) on the yard side of things. I then ran wires to the yard and to the left/top sides where terminal strips would be. The Blue, Green and Yellow sections would be further broken into power blocks and I'd block each spur so you could store an engine on each and turn off the power. You'd also want to block each whisker track. You'd then divide the Blue, Green and Yellow tracks into blocks being sure to limit the size of each to conform to recommended DCS lengths and number of joints. Remember, these are just for power feeds, so 2 smaller blocks are better than 1 longer one.
Ok here is a question on panel placement. The majority of track in the green area is yard and roundhouse. I would anticipate most of those being powered off for train storage. With the control panel being in that area, it will have the lowest draw which would be able to handle having the longest run from panel. Why have the panel there and not across the isle? Is it for yard switching? I am sure I do not have the working knowledge of this situation.
All comments are needed and welcome
Unless you are planning a control panel of "olden" days with a track diagram and toggle switches protruding from it at given locations, many of the panels now seen on these pages are just locations where power and wiring start, with the biggest concerns being large enough to handle power supplies, heat and access for repairs or modifications. So if yours is to be of the newer style, the best location would be on either side of your widest aisle. Then, you would put your toggle switches (or whatever you decide to control your powered on-off sidings) right on the railroad fascia near the siding location.
On the other hand, if you choose the "olden" style panel, Dave's location is probably best because you will probably spend a lot more time building and disassembling trains in the yard and moving engines in/out of the roundhouse than anything else. The current versions of "olden" style panels generally conceal the power supplies and wiring under an angled panel top where the user sits next to it.
Chuck
Chuck described it very well; better than I could.
Dan, that makes much more sense, thanks for clarifying.
John, there’s nothing magical about the placement of the panel, I just put it somewhere. If it were me, I’d probably put it on the left so power runs to the top and bottom terminal strips would be similar in length. Like Chuck mentioned, a lot depends on how you define “panel”. For me, it’s simply your transformer and TIU. “Old style” design would then suggest a “control” panel near the yard. It would be a diagram of the yard with toggle switches for power and turnout activation. There’d be another one across the aisle for the turnouts in that section. However, modern designs generally locate power and turnout controls along the facia or on the layout because a lot of control is now done from the remote, not by manually pushing buttons or toggling switches. Where you locate the transformer/TIU generally depends on if you plan to run conventional where you need access to the transformer handle(s). If not, then they can be tucked out of the way. A lot of folks put then on a cart or panel that can be pulled out for maintenance, etc.
@PRR1950 posted:Unless you are planning a control panel of "olden" days with a track diagram and toggle switches protruding from it at given locations, many of the panels now seen on these pages are just locations where power and wiring start, with the biggest concerns being large enough to handle power supplies, heat and access for repairs or modifications. So if yours is to be of the newer style, the best location would be on either side of your widest aisle. Then, you would put your toggle switches (or whatever you decide to control your powered on-off sidings) right on the railroad fascia near the siding location.
On the other hand, if you choose the "olden" style panel, Dave's location is probably best because you will probably spend a lot more time building and disassembling trains in the yard and moving engines in/out of the roundhouse than anything else. The current versions of "olden" style panels generally conceal the power supplies and wiring under an angled panel top where the user sits next to it.
Chuck
Great Info and I hope to have a newer style panel and definitely provide air flow, access and power for that panel. This leads me to be swapping to the other side of the aisle and keeping the higher power demands at the shortest distance that is practical. Hope this will be a good choice? If anyone has other suggestions please post them and those posts will be appreciated.
Thanks John
@DoubleDAZ posted:Dan, that makes much more sense, thanks for clarifying.
If it were me, I’d probably put it on the left so power runs to the top and bottom terminal strips would be similar in length. Like Chuck mentioned, a lot depends on how you define “panel”. For me, it’s simply your transformer and TIU.
However, modern designs generally locate power and turnout controls along the facia or on the layout because a lot of control is now done from the remote, not by manually pushing buttons or toggling switches. Where you locate the transformer/TIU generally depends on if you plan to run conventional where you need access to the transformer handle(s). If not, then they can be tucked out of the way. A lot of folks put then on a cart or panel that can be pulled out for maintenance, etc.
Hi Dave, I am not sure what you are saying with power runs to the top and bottom terminal strips being similar in length ? And when you say left side, is that where you placed it on the drawing you posted?
And I was anticipating having transformer, TIU and two AIU's in this configuration. With circuit breakers, fuses and an arduino micro for special functions.
Thanks John
John,
Here's a new photo. You can place the control panel with the Z-4000, TIU and AIUs pretty much anywhere. However, if you place it where the Brown rectangle is across from the yard AND you include the terminal strips like Mark did, you'll have to run a large number of power feeds all the way around the layout to get power to the yard. Looking at Marks photo, it appears he ran about 22 feeds and used larger gauge wires from the terminal strips to the tracks than from the TIU to the terminal strips.
My suggestion is simply that you place your terminal strips closer to the track power blocks. If you leave the control panel where the Brown rectangle is, you need a single long feed to yard terminal strip, a medium length feed to the bridge terminal strip and a short feed to the town terminal strip. If you locate it where I have it though, you have a shorter run to the yard strip, a similar length run to the town strip and short run to the bridge strip. I don't the gauges wires Mark used, but if it matters, you'd use less of the larger gauge wire and more of the smaller gauge wire.
I added Red power feeds to the terminal strips and Black feeds to the tracks in the town. You'd have similar feeds from the other 2 terminal strips to the yard and bridge tracks.
I don't think either configuration is wrong, I just don't like having to trace long feeds when building or troubleshooting. Most wiring designs I've seen place terminal strips closer to the action, so to speak. If you unfold the design with the Green tracks on the left, the Blue in the middle and the Yellow on the right, you end up with all the terminal strips where the Brown rectangle is on one end of a long run.
Just food for thought, nothing more.
Thanks a million Dave, I think you just saw a light bulb over my head go on! Your diagram and explanation made things much clearer and I can see your point for sure.
Again Thanks for clearing up, really the difference between power feeds to terminal strips versus terminal strips to track.
Ok here is a first try at power distribution for this layout. Following MTH guidelines (at least I think I did?) and everyone's input, here is the result for now. Three separate power districts, feed by 14ga. stranded wire from three tiu outputs which will have over current protection and indicator lamps. Then tracks are feed by 18ga stranded wire from terminal strips to tracks with a method of switching power (yet to be determined) to isolate those blocks from each other for both engine control (shutting off engines not in use in round house or spurs) and fault isolation. I tried my best to color code things to help make sense of this potential rats nest. Labeling the wire runs maybe something along TIU-PD1 to PD1-T1-1,2 So this would be connection between the first TIU output to power district 1 terminal strip 1, terminals 1 and 2 Making odd always black return and even numbers red hot side.
Everyone, please let me know of better power distribution methods, labeling etc. Always a better way to skin a cat!
Thanks in advance
John, it sounds good. I’ll take a closer look on the pc when I get home. I’m looking at the phone screen as I am sitting here at PT with the heating pad on.
Thanks Mark,
You must be hurting from PT. Hope all is healing well and this hurt will be worth it in the long run.
John
John, I'm so sorry I didn't get back to you!!! Thank you for reminding me!! I inadvertently deleted the email reminder on my phone, and didn't think of it.
First off, PT is going well. I just finished 6 weeks of it already. I am getting some more flexibility and strength, and there is less back pain. In fact, very little back pain except when I get up in the morning for a half hour or so. My sciatic nerve is a different story, though I think I am seeing progress. I had a couple nights with less pain from it. The therapist told me I won't see a steady progress, but there will be ups and downs. I am taking a challenge tomorrow in that I am going to go to the Monroeville Greenburg show. I did okay a couple weeks ago driving to see my mum at the hospital which was a 45-minute drive each way. She got a pacemaker, and is back at her personal care home. I'm going to not take Rt 8 and Turnpike, but go an alternate route that doesn't take much longer, but I can stop whenever I need to. The trip to Monroeville takes about an hour and 15 minutes. The therapist wants a report on how I do when I go back in on Monday.
On to your wiring diagram. Following along, you did the same thing I did, except I only have one major terminal since my layout is smaller. Looking at all the drops, they all make sense, unless I missed one or two. However, if you missed any on the diagram, you will pick it up when you are wiring. That happened to me; I missed one and am glad I bought 24-terminal blocks and not 12-terminal blocks. I would have been one short on the sidings.
Have you made any more progress on the benchwork or had any thoughts on the backdrop?
Hi Mark,
Glad to hear you are doing better and by the looks of your wiring on your layout, you must be doing really well to do such an outstanding job combing those wires into perfect positions. I am finally getting back to building the benchwork on my setup after months of it being idle. I did get some time to tinker with controlling layout block power and block occupancy detection and turnouts, using wireless ESP8266 system on chip (SOC) the idea is to eliminate wiring each block sensor, turnout, and block power control back to either control center or toggle switches. I have the basics working and will wait until some track is laid before final verification of viability and usefulness is vetted. I'll start to post some picks as I restart bench work progress.
Thanks for your help and inspiration to get back to the layout.
John
John, thank you for the compliments! I’m glad you are getting some time to get back to your layout. Your plan for block occupancy and turnouts sounds great! Even with my setup, after I drew a schematic, I sat on my stool in front of the AIU panel and mocked up a circuit with the AIU, DZ1000, and push button, and alligator clip jumpers. I’ll look forward to seeing what you are doing!
Hi Mark, General gist is to use AIU to set an input to the "home unit" esp32 which in turn will wirelessly send the command to a "slave" esp8266 relay board swiching a turnout or enabling power to a block depending on what you want to do. Also have an esp8266 detect block occupancy by using one of two inputs with an isolated outside rail as a switch detecting occupancy and second input detecting block power. This one will send status back to "home" esp32 and light up led's for visual and maybe an arduino mega controlling signals and the like. Obviously still in planning stage, however I did write the code and verified it working to at least control the relays and status leds. So back to bench work! I am getting to the last stretch of base bench work as I have a straight wall then into an alcove, back wall straight then right angle back to be almost even with starting bench work on opposite wall . The last straight run is not completed yet. I'll post some pics later when I get a chance. Oldest daughter is moving out this week and I will be busy for sure with her move to Pittsburg area. Thank goodness it is not too far!
John, Okay I followed the concept! It sounds neat! Yes I remember the alcove! Did you lose your shirt on lumber??
I’m glad your daughter is only moving as far as near Pittsburgh! Did she get a new job down there?
@Mark Boyce posted:John, Okay I followed the concept! It sounds neat! Yes I remember the alcove! Did you lose your shirt on lumber??
I’m glad your daughter is only moving as far as near Pittsburgh! Did she get a new job down there?
Lumber was expensive when I got it but can’t imagine what the price is now. Had gotten the L-girder 1x3 and 1x4 and 2x2for legs before prices went into orbit
Daughter starts new job at Target on Tuesday. She is all excited to be leaving the nest and flying solo! God bless her!
btw still have part of my shirt lol
I'm glad you got the lumber before the price went as high as it is now.
God bless your daughter!
Here are some pics of progress so far
Great to see you back in action. Great start on the bench work!
Ditto what Dave said.
John, Great looking L-girder!!!!
Dave, I'm glad to see you respond! I was thinking of contacting you since I haven't seen you post for a while.
Clearly a dual purpose blackjack table with a train layout
Still around, Mark, just haven’t had much to say lately. I’ve worked on a couple of designs via pm and email, so I’ve kept busy enough. Also, we’re having the bathrooms remodeled and have been fighting the lack of truck drivers, workers, etc. We’re not doing the work ourselves, but there’s still plenty to interrupt the day. The biggest frustration difficulty getting materials. We waited until we had almost everything. Work started Oct 21 Andy the last items, faucets, we’re supposed to ship in time, but have been delayed twice and won’t ship until mid-December, if then. Now we’re waiting on a glass shower wall and countertops. When they finally get delivered we’ll have to buy some cheap faucets to tide us over. The good thing is our niece got us her employee discounts and we ordered before all the price increases, so it’ll all be worth it eventually.
@Bruce Brown posted:Clearly a dual purpose blackjack table with a train layout
I taught professional blackjack back in my younger days! Needed a table for practice sessions. Never got around to repurposing it yet.
@DoubleDAZ posted:Still around, Mark, just haven’t had much to say lately. I’ve worked on a couple of designs via pm and email, so I’ve kept busy enough. Also, we’re having the bathrooms remodeled and have been fighting the lack of truck drivers, workers, etc. We’re not doing the work ourselves, but there’s still plenty to interrupt the day. The biggest frustration difficulty getting materials. We waited until we had almost everything. Work started Oct 21 Andy the last items, faucets, we’re supposed to ship in time, but have been delayed twice and won’t ship until mid-December, if then. Now we’re waiting on a glass shower wall and countertops. When they finally get delivered we’ll have to buy some cheap faucets to tide us over. The good thing is our niece got us her employee discounts and we ordered before all the price increases, so it’ll all be worth it eventually.
This supply chain issue is just crazy. Great planning ahead Dave, even with that they still manage to throw wrenchs into the works. 
And inflation is killing my retirement income. Glad to hear from you again! You have helped me and others so much it is impossible to repay you for all the work and help. Again HUGE THANKS !
Getting to the benchwork section that will support the 27" Ross turntable. Anyone have experience installing a Ross turn Table? Seems straight forward, but when it seems like that to me it usually isn't so easy. Any links or help is always appreciated. Thanks
John
Good luck Dave, that’s is a disruptive process. You’ll appreciate it all the more; when it’s done.
Fortunately, Jay, I knew beforehand there were going to be issues, so we’ve been prepared for them. I knew the faucets were going to be close, but was surprised they got delayed further. Everything is shipped direct from Kohler factories, but it didn’t help that everything was brushed nickel in the same collection, you can get white and stainless much easier. It’s still not a big deal, just would like to take a shower in our new shower. I guess I could right now and just dry the floor after, but it’d get rather cool with no walls on 2 sides. We might still end up adding a door, but we’re going to try the walk-in first once the glass wall gets installed, hopefully this week.
@Aegis21 posted:I taught professional blackjack back in my younger days! Needed a table for practice sessions. Never got around to repurposing it yet.
I had no idea what that thing was! 
No, I've never been to Las Vegas!
Proceeding along with bench work, not much else to report. Bench work will slow as I am at the point of framing out for the 27" Ross turntable and then the two ends that will be where the truss bridge will span the two benches. As for the turntable that maybe easier than I am anticipating, however the truss bridge that will lift from one side or the other is another story. There are overhead concerns as a steel I-Beam is in the vicinity of the cross over, I am hoping this will work. Plus adding bench work to handle the bridge going up with associated safety switches, alignment pins and lifting mechanism will be a whole other ball game. I'm setting my sights on finishing the bench work early next year. Sad to say, but that is a realistic goal with the obstacles to face and problems to solve.
John, you have reason to think the lift up will take a while. I kept confusing myself as I was setting it up. Mike gave me good information. Hopefully you will have less trouble than me
Hi Mark,
Well you have an impressive dual bridge, dual level to deal with! Mine will only be one , 40" long two track atlas Pratt truss bridge . Dealing with only one bridge and only one level should be easier for sure. My BIG concern is the overhead clearance for the bridge when it is lifted up. 40" gets awfully tall when raised... Table legs are 40" add the plywood and homosote, I am looking at 82" height minimum. I have tried to keep the bridge and track away from the I-beam overhead and I will be hoping for the best. I hate at this point to remove all the legs and lower the bench work to get the clearance for the bridge.
Thanks
John
John, it has been a while and I forgot you are using the double track bridge; one level. My Atlas bridge doesn't raise the whole way up to vertical or it would hit the ceiling, but my upper track level is 50 inches off the floor. That I-beam of yours will keep you on your toes locating the bridge. Yes lowering the layout would be a nasty job.
Hoping all had a happy thanksgiving.
Hi All, Here is a pic of my works in progress bench work. The ross 27" turntable has me a little baffled using L-girder construction. There is the motor/electronics assembly that protrudes appox. 10" past the 31" square on one side. Not sure how to support that side. Here is a pic with the turntable rotated 90 degrees which has that assembly protruding past the bench work and into the aisle. Yes the area is cluttered with train boxes, which does slow things down quite a bit.
Ugh! John, Could you give us another couple photographs at different angles, since I'm not quite sure what you have there? I don't know what to suggest except, can you remove a cross member and support the controller differently?
Hi Mark,
yes those pictures aren’t very helpful
here are a couple more
I am thinking to make a box with a channel cutout to accommodate the drive portion sticking out, that the turntable can be lowered onto which will also help in matching the levels of the turntable and the plywood/homosote.
here are some more pics
hope they help
thanks
John, thank you for some more photographs. Yes, that idea sounds like it should work.
Here is what I wound up doing with turntable. Made box frame so the 31" clearance was met for the turntable. Then cutout spot for drive hardware and added 1x4's to extend onto L-girder supports. I may reinforce that section with aluminum angle across the cutout section, but I'll asses its support the way it is now. Here are a couple of pics.
Looks like a good solution. I don't think you need to reinforce the joint if you screw plywood down across it.
@turkey_hollow_rr posted:Looks like a good solution. I don't think you need to reinforce the joint if you screw plywood down across it.
Thanks and excellent point about screwing plywood down onto those cross pieces.
John, it looks like a solid installation to me.
@Mark Boyce posted:John, it looks like a solid installation to me.
Thanks Mark, Now to work on the pass through bridge area. My intent will be to get the L-girders done and before putting on top, run as much electrical and under table work from above as possible. At least the main runners to distribution terminal strips. And also the controlling relays and detection and signalling electronics placed in their area's.
Good plan!
Here are some more pics of progress on bench work. The narrowest space for entry is 33” and it widens to 38”
John, It looks great! I see you have already drilled holes for running wires. I would have made my entrance point wider like yours, but then I would have been fighting curves on the ends of both bridges.
Well just working on spacing joists to accommodate 48” or 96” sheets of plywood
From the information I have read, the raised track sections should be cookie cutter and the flat yard can have a sheet of plywood and homosote on top of that for sound considerations
not sure what I’ll do with town area as that is 2” above baseline. Thought of plywood then foam and then homosote. That will allow some culverts and a stream or other lower areas for interest
any thoughts or comments
as always I welcome all opinions as they always add to the build
Hello All,
To keep from reaching too far (>36") The four foot width along each wall needs to be either a drop down shelf or a removable shelf. I am now tending towards removable as a drop down will still keep more than 36" reach if they have any structures on them, so when they drop (lets say a foot of shelf) the height of the structure will be down and protruding out. Any place I can go to learn about the best way to make the shelves? Tthe run will be 1 foot by about 20 feet. so one shelf will be way too large. Maybe 4-5 feet will keep them manageable?
Any thoughts and all HELP is needed....
Thanks in advance
John
Hi John- just read through your thread. Not sure what you are trying to achieve with the shelves. Are you planning to cut the framing back as well? if not then even if you can remove a section on top you still would have the same reach problem.
Bob
John, my thought is that the removable sections should be like kitchen drawers. When you pull out a kitchen drawer, rails are like the joists in L-girder bench work. The drawer front is attached to the drawer, not the rails. Then when you remove the drawer, you’re left with an opening between the rails/joists that you can move into. If you attach the facia to your shelves instead of the joists, you can simply lift them out and have a similar open space between the joists. I would double the thickness of your joist under the shelf where 2 shelves meet to give you enough support to use pins for alignment. It’s kind of hard to explain, so I can draw something in SCARM if needed. The key is making the facia renmoveable.
You asked for any thoughts.....Down through the years, where ever I could, I used fingers with aisles between the fingers or cut in slots so as to have access w/o physical contortions.
Some suggested settings:
The above slot at top center allows for turnout service.
Slot for a hinge drop down body of water above and below photos.
This entire peninsula above was originally flipped over 180 degrees with no aisle. After replacing an obtrusive tank style water heater with a relocated tank less wall mounted water heater I flipped the benchwork and made an aisle to provide an ease of access.
Simply a 12' X 12' walk in.
The above was a 8' 6" X 8' 4" industrial peninsula with only climb up and crawl over access to the center.
A jig saw and Saws-All made a nice waterway which provided access to the center of everything.
@Tom Tee posted:You asked for any thoughts.....Down through the years, where ever I could, I used fingers with aisles between the fingers or cut in slots so as to have access w/o physical contortions.
Some suggested settings:
The above slot at top center allows for turnout service.
Slot for a hinge drop down body of water above and below photos.
This entire peninsula above was originally flipped over 180 degrees with no aisle. After replacing an obtrusive tank style water heater with a relocated tank less wall mounted water heater I flipped the benchwork and made an aisle to provide an ease of access.
Simply a 12' X 12' walk in.
The above was a 8' 6" X 8' 4" industrial peninsula with only climb up and crawl over access to the center.
A jig saw and Saws-All made a nice waterway which provided access to the center of everything.
Great job and good ideas for sure! Using the waterway makes a lot of sense. Nice pics to illustrate the idea with implementation
Thaks!
@DoubleDAZ posted:John, my thought is that the removable sections should be like kitchen drawers. When you pull out a kitchen drawer, rails are like the joists in L-girder bench work. The drawer front is attached to the drawer, not the rails. Then when you remove the drawer, you’re left with an opening between the rails/joists that you can move into. If you attach the facia to your shelves instead of the joists, you can simply lift them out and have a similar open space between the joists. I would double the thickness of your joist under the shelf where 2 shelves meet to give you enough support to use pins for alignment. It’s kind of hard to explain, so I can draw something in SCARM if needed. The key is making the facia renmoveable.
I do get your idea and did not consider the facia. My thought was to attach two strips of wood to the underside of baseboard that would act as guides along the joists for lateral alignment. Maybe use latches under to latch the main section to the re movable section like a dinning room table leaf gets latched? Is that similar to what you are conveying? Thanks for reminding me I need to deal with facia. And what is the maximum joists spacing you would reccomend? For the removable sections...
@RSJB18 posted:Hi John- just read through your thread. Not sure what you are trying to achieve with the shelves. Are you planning to cut the framing back as well? if not then even if you can remove a section on top you still would have the same reach problem.
Bob
The framing is L-girder and the joists can remain while the baseboard could be removed allowing for better access to the back. At present the section is four foot wide. Removing a one foot section gives me a three foot reach instead of four foot. I do have a topside creeper which I am leary about working on for delicate work for extended time periods
so my hope is to cut down on reaching four feet to work on the layout
@Aegis21 posted:The framing is L-girder and the joists can remain while the baseboard could be removed allowing for better access to the back. At present the section is four foot wide. Removing a one foot section gives me a three foot reach instead of four foot. I do have a topside creeper which I am leary about working on for delicate work for extended time periods
so my hope is to cut down on reaching four feet to work on the layout
The facia had me scratching my head too.
The suggestions from Dave and Tom above sound like good solutions. I like the drawer concept. Lot's of heavy duty drawer runners on the market. Use the under-mount type and there would be no clearance issues along the sides of the drawer.
A simple L-bracket attached to the framing that the drawer section can sit on would work as well. A couple of pins would hold it in place when in-use. Just remember to create power blocks so you don't accidentally run a train into the abyss.
Bob
John, I’m getting a bit confused here. Isn’t the bench work already done and aren’t there joists already in place, similar to that in the photo?
This is a closeup on 1 area. The section in gray seems to be where you want the removable shelves. It has roads and buildings on it, so it seems to me you just need to separate it into sections you can reasonably handle when you need to remove them, maybe something like 48”. Since the joists are only 3/4” wide, where the sections meet, I would add another 1x piece to the side of the joist to give you support for the next section. I would attach pins to the sections and drill holes in the joists. If you want to lock them in place, you could add latches of some sort underneath. The facia across those section would be attached to the sections and not to the joists. If you used pins like those on IKEA products, a simple turn would lock things in place without the need for latches.
I have to admit I am curious that you have a topside creeper but seem to be hesitant to use it?
I have used this simple slide for drawers. Maybe this will give you an idea of how to do this with your existing framing. I don't know what tools you have available. I used 3/4" oak and cut a dado as a guide for the drawer rails to slide into. The rails are also oak.
The advantages over mfg'd slides are the cost and, most importantly, there are no latches in the rails to fiddle with while you re-insert the rails. Then, as Dave suggested, you need something to assure they align the same way when seated each time.
If you are going to do this much extra work I suggest working out how not to have any framing sticking out when you remove the sections. So the weight of each section would be outside of the frame and the rails would need to be wider than in the picture and probably extend a foot or so into the framing.
@turkey_hollow_rr posted:I have to admit I am curious that you have a topside creeper but seem to be hesitant to use it?
Dan,
Searching through previous threads I can see that the topside creeper gets a wide range of reviews--fabulous to not-so-good. I was in that haters group. I resold my Micromark topside creeper to an automotive repair business. For my purpose it was too bulky, heavy, constantly bumped into table legs when trying to reposition it, gave me less reach than expected (compared to just standing on a step ladder), and I just felt uncomfortable leaning against it on a higher rung. But I see that several other modelers absolutely love it!!
@DoubleDAZ posted:John, I’m getting a bit confused here. Isn’t the bench work already done and aren’t there joists already in place, similar to that in the photo?
This is a closeup on 1 area. The section in gray seems to be where you want the removable shelves. It has roads and buildings on it, so it seems to me you just need to separate it into sections you can reasonably handle when you need to remove them, maybe something like 48”. Since the joists are only 3/4” wide, where the sections meet, I would add another 1x piece to the side of the joist to give you support for the next section. I would attach pins to the sections and drill holes in the joists. If you want to lock them in place, you could add latches of some sort underneath. The facia across those section would be attached to the sections and not to the joists. If you used pins like those on IKEA products, a simple turn would lock things in place without the need for latches.
Sorry if the pics add confusion. The L-Girders are all completed with their joists attached to the legs of those sections. The joists that go in-between the legs are placed on for my lack of mentally visualizing the joists height and separations. At this time the removable shelves should only have buildings and scenery so no track to align and power block for safety. I can fit in between joists that are spaced out 16" and will aim for that spacing. Good idea with the facia attached to the "drawer" I am hoping 16" joist centers will be strong enough for the layout. Pins seem to be the way to go and would I need the slides or would it be simplier to pull it out of the pins and lift out?
@RSJB18 posted:The facia had me scratching my head too.
The suggestions from Dave and Tom above sound like good solutions. I like the drawer concept. Lot's of heavy duty drawer runners on the market. Use the under-mount type and there would be no clearance issues along the sides of the drawer.
A simple L-bracket attached to the framing that the drawer section can sit on would work as well. A couple of pins would hold it in place when in-use. Just remember to create power blocks so you don't accidentally run a train into the abyss.Bob
Hi Bob, Thanks for the excellent suggestions. The areas will not have track so that will be one less worry for sure, thanks for that input though as I tend to forget details like those... I am thinking the joists will be the L brackets so I will need some lateral stability from underneath and again the pinning is appreciated.
@turkey_hollow_rr posted:I have to admit I am curious that you have a topside creeper but seem to be hesitant to use it?
I have used this simple slide for drawers. Maybe this will give you an idea of how to do this with your existing framing. I don't know what tools you have available. I used 3/4" oak and cut a dado as a guide for the drawer rails to slide into. The rails are also oak.
The advantages over mfg'd slides are the cost and, most importantly, there are no latches in the rails to fiddle with while you re-insert the rails. Then, as Dave suggested, you need something to assure they align the same way when seated each time.
If you are going to do this much extra work I suggest working out how not to have any framing sticking out when you remove the sections. So the weight of each section would be outside of the frame and the rails would need to be wider than in the picture and probably extend a foot or so into the framing.
I like the simple drawer design and implementation. Over the many years I have collected quite a bit of wood working tools and equipment. So the costs would be materials and time. Good thought on keeping the framing within bounds so to speak. I'll certainly give that a look and see if I can come up with a design that will not be to complicated.
@Bruce Brown posted:Dan,
Searching through previous threads I can see that the topside creeper gets a wide range of reviews--fabulous to not-so-good. I was in that haters group. I resold my Micromark topside creeper to an automotive repair business. For my purpose it was too bulky, heavy, constantly bumped into table legs when trying to reposition it, gave me less reach than expected (compared to just standing on a step ladder), and I just felt uncomfortable leaning against it on a higher rung. But I see that several other modelers absolutely love it!!
Bruce,
I have read both good and not so good reports on the topside creeper for this work. One of the reasons I went L-Grider construction was to keep the legs to a minimum so this beast could be used. My space is small and getting smaller with every piece of lumber I install. That is why I am looking at avoiding it's use as much as possible. There will be area's that I will still need to use it, but keeping those to a minimum seems to be the prudent way to proceed.
Thanks for your input, it supports my fears! LOL
As much as I advocate for walk-in non duck under construction there were a few spots on my RR where I needed a cloud hook.
I have the standard topside creeper and appreciate it very much. However I can see how it might not work well in tight aisles.
The Micro Mart creeper is the basic less expensive model. I did not know it at the time I ordered mine but Top Side Creepers are made much stronger and even larger for those with a bit more heft. Check out their website. Stronger models are available. Would not want to be without mine. At my 220# and sore joints this one serves me well.
Even with the Micro Mart one I can cantilever myself out pretty far beyond the top pad to do work in the corner of my upper level. There are also a couple of valves I need to access in a far back corner over the bench work for outside spigots each winter.
I do not fold mine up it just seems that I use it often enough to keep it up.
Dave and Everyone,
Where the two drawers/facia's meet I will go with your suggestion of adding another 1x4 joist so there will be 1.5" face to maybe velcro the facia to? Or should I go with a cover piece on one side that overlaps the other side? Hope that isn't confusing. btw here are a couple of more pics, minimum joists are fastened in these pics. The sections nearest are fastened down and ready for electrical work to start when the removable section is finalized. I threw a piece of plywood on top just to see "table Height" and how the perspective looks. That will be back down asap so I can wire from above.
@Tom Tee posted:As much as I advocate for walk-in non duck under construction there were a few spots on my RR where I needed a cloud hook.
I have the standard topside creeper and appreciate it very much. However I can see how it might not work well in tight aisles.
The Micro Mart creeper is the basic less expensive model. I did not know it at the time I ordered mine but Top Side Creepers are made much stronger and even larger for those with a bit more heft. Check out their website. Stronger models are available. Would not want to be without mine. At my 220# and sore joints this one serves me well.
Even with the Micro Mart one I can cantilever myself out pretty far beyond the top pad to do work in the corner of my upper level. There are also a couple of valves I need to access in a far back corner over the bench work for outside spigots each winter.
I do not fold mine up it just seems that I use it often enough to keep it up.
Hi Tom, I have a heavy duty creeper and it is stable and doesn't flich at my 230# weight. That said when I go up and out on it, I start to feel it in my back and tired muscles, or lack of muscles. lol I will be using it for sure but I personally want to keep its use at a minimum. Not sure if I can get it out of the area at this point which I need to check out because there is no place to store it inside the layout. opps!
John, maybe these photos will show things a little better. You can see the Brown joists as well as the added Orange supports. There is the Green base decking with the tracks as well as Blue panels (if needed) that remain in place. The 2 Yellow panels (shelves) have Black pins that fit into the White holes in the joints/supports. The panels sit on a support on 1 side and a joist on the other side. Given the joists are only 16" apart, I see no need for added support or latches for the panels, but that would be your decision. Again, if you use IKEA-type pins, you can lock things down with a simple twist with a screwdriver. Note: If you have powered accessories/lighted buildings on the panel, you'll need to add plug-in power connections of some sort. While drawer slides are neat, I'm not sure they'd be worth the expense and hassle. Again, your decision.
@Aegis21 posted:...Not sure if I can get it out of the area at this point which I need to check out because there is no place to store it inside the layout. opps!
Have you given consideration to removing some legs? A large portion of my wall mounted layout is cantilevered on 3/4" plywood knees which provides a clear floor to the wall. This opens up many spots where I could store the creeper.
Hi Tom,
I am certainly envious of your design and carpentry skills! Very impressive and totally functional!
With l-girder there are not many legs to eliminate. The walking area inside the layout is tight and I am out of room in other parts of the basement to store the creeper. I can see storage an issue besides the maneuvering under the bench work. As you can see from some pics I am already playing musical boxes with trains and bench work.
thanks for the suggestion and again I love your work
@DoubleDAZ posted:John, maybe these photos will show things a little better. You can see the Brown joists as well as the added Orange supports. There is the Green base decking with the tracks as well as Blue panels (if needed) that remain in place. The 2 Yellow panels (shelves) have Black pins that fit into the White holes in the joints/supports. The panels sit on a support on 1 side and a joist on the other side. Given the joists are only 16" apart, I see no need for added support or latches for the panels, but that would be your decision. Again, if you use IKEA-type pins, you can lock things down with a simple twist with a screwdriver. Note: If you have powered accessories/lighted buildings on the panel, you'll need to add plug-in power connections of some sort. While drawer slides are neat, I'm not sure they'd be worth the expense and hassle. Again, your decision.
Hi Dave
thanks for the amazing illustrations which help me a lot! Three to four foot sections are now my goal. The balance between minimizing lines and being able to handle the sections will be interesting. Thanks for reminding me to consider electrical work to buildings, signal etc. I will look at this after Christmas
Merry Christmas to all!!!!
Hi Dave,
the illustrations made it so easy to understand the build. This looks like a great place to begin design. Not sure if wood pegs would last or if I should use some metal pins? I know there shouldn't be a highly repetitive use for much wear but am I just asking for trouble later? And precision should not be a factor.
Thanks
Tom,
I'm liking the slides for use on the electrical control area. Mount transformer, tiu, aiu, remote commander with for hit breakers on pull out drawers.
Thanks!
This is what I did with a few drawer slides. They have their place.
John, obviously metal pins and metal inserts would be the better option, but I’m not sure you need that much precision. Metal pins would minimize accidentally breaking off a pin, but a simple hole drilled into the base should be sufficient for the pin to go in. However, since the removable panels will be along the edge of the layout where they can be bumped, you might want to lock them in place with some sort of latch. There are spring loaded latches that pretty much serve both purposes, alignment and locking in place.
https://www.amazon.com/Heavy-S...ps%2C119&sr=8-41
Dave,
Thanks for the latch idea and the link! Seems with the spacing of joists (appx. 16") possibly 32" sections with a couple of latches might do the trick.
Dan,
That is thinking outside the rails for sure. Great idea, everyone on here is amazing!
Thanks All!
Ok I am sorting out a wiring plan for the layout. I have the basic idea of star wiring and will have a control panel with transformer, tiu, aiu's circuit breakers and lionel legacy equipment all tied in (hopefully correctly)
Unfortunately I was procuring items for control over the past several years (i.e. before MTH called it quits and was transitioning to WTIU's So I have a TIU rev.L with two hand held controllers and I hope I do not need another TIU because of capacity. I have things broken out to 3 "Districts" and several blocks from those districts. Not sure if one tiu will handle the size of the layout, any ideas on how to test things out before I put the top on the benchwork. I am trying to do most wiring from above, so I do not want to "close" the top off with plywood just yet.
Happy New Years Alll
And
Thanks in Advance
John
John, As I recall, I have read you can use both of the fixed outputs and both of the variable outputs to power individual districts. I would ahve to dig into Barry's book or search here on the Forum for how to make all 4 work.
@Mark Boyce posted:John, As I recall, I have read you can use both of the fixed outputs and both of the variable outputs to power individual districts. I would ahve to dig into Barry's book or search here on the Forum for how to make all 4 work.
Hi Mark,
It appears from doing a second pass at power distribution, I will have three districts so possibly three channels of the tiu will be good enough. I’ll have to read how the Lionel legacy interfaces with this set up and will two AIU’s be enough? I will be experimenting with ota switch control by micro processors. The plan is to have this system switch turnouts , control track power blocks, sense block occupancy and control signals. Plan on using AIU’s to tell micros which switch to throw and what blocks need power. I hope I am not biting off much more than I can chew
btw you have been doing a fantastic job with your layout!
John, thank you for the comment on my layout!
Keep asking questions here or make new topics with questions as you proceed with the electronic side of the layout. You will find someone here who has done just about anything you can think of doing on your layout.
Thanks Mark for the sage advice! I am sure if it is doable it has been done here! Great people on this forum with not only a vast amount of knowledge but the kindness to share without hesitation.
At the moment I am finishing up the L-Girder joists by marking out where the sheets of plywood will meet and double up joists at those locations. There always seems to be so much to "finish" before moving to the next chapter of the build. My Goal is to have the L-Girder completely done waiting for plywood, also the main power feed terminal blocks installed and feeder wires run and at least connected at the distribution end before my next knee replacement. That is scheduled for Feb. 10th which I know the way things go this is an ambitious goal. I'll post pics as I move along.
John, good luck with the knee and follow doctor’s/therapist’s orders.
Thanks Dave, I am not looking forward to it, but will do what I am told. 
John, In a way it is good to know what you are in for, but in another way it is bad. I dread going back for a second knee replacement, but so far my right one is good. Now if we could get that sciatic nerve to settle down, we would be getting somewhere!
I hope you are able to make good progress on the layout between now and then.
Thanks Mark for encouraging words. I am hoping this knee will not be worse than the first one. At least I've run out of knees lol
John, you occasionally allude to the rest of the basement...Is there a print of the entire basement floor plan? Is there some way to penetrate a wall for a mainline run through so as to narrow the benchwork and open the aisle a bit.
Some folks run a line into and through the family room featuring full scenery which provides a very nice RR touch to an other wise same old same old family room.
Any time you can get 90 or 180 degrees of curvature out of the train room you can gain either increased real estate or aisle space.
@Tom Tee posted:John, you occasionally allude to the rest of the basement...Is there a print of the entire basement floor plan? Is there some way to penetrate a wall for a mainline run through so as to narrow the benchwork and open the aisle a bit.
Some folks run a line into and through the family room featuring full scenery which provides a very nice RR touch to an other wise same old same old family room.
Any time you can get 90 or 180 degrees of curvature out of the train room you can gain either increased real estate or aisle space.
Hi Tom,
The rest of the basement is off limits according to my boss. It is a finished room, with ceiling tiles, painted and decorated walls, with TV, couches, refrigerator, kitchen table. Sorry to say, It is definitely off limits. Basic foot print of basement is 24' x 50' with basement stuff, like furnace, hot water heater, well tank and water softener. Plus a small area for my tropical fish display. So what you see is what I have, which I am grateful for, as the biggest layout I ever had before was 4x8.
Thanks for the recommendation, great ideas for sure!
John I just saw second knee replacement and read back and saw questions about TIU, AIU, etc.
We have one TIU, four power districts, 4 AIUs, 40-50 relays, a ZW-L, and a second TIU and ZW-L, etc for when we resume laying track. If we can help with any of that, please let us know.
We are very interested in your use of microprocessors to control it all. That is beyond us.
Interested in knee replacement because #2 for me is scheduled for 2/14. Do not look forward to it.
@Bill Webb posted:John I just saw second knee replacement and read back and saw questions about TIU, AIU, etc.
We have one TIU, four power districts, 4 AIUs, 40-50 relays, a ZW-L, and a second TIU and ZW-L, etc for when we resume laying track. If we can help with any of that, please let us know.
We are very interested in your use of microprocessors to control it all. That is beyond us.
Interested in knee replacement because #2 for me is scheduled for 2/14. Do not look forward to it.
Hi Bill,
wow that is a lot of relays for sure. How are they divided up, turnouts vs accessories? I am Basically working on the AIU's to connect with a microprocessor to Bluetooth or maybe work to a remote that controls turnouts/accessories. Also have detection boards report back to base micro block occupancy and block lower to set signals properly. This has been a parallel project that will get more time while my knee heals and layout work will stop temporarily. I will start to post some updates as some of the sections of this project progress to the testing stage.
My second knee is scheduled 2\10\22 and I am almost dreading it. First knee was not fun for sure. Had both hips replaced and those were really easy.
Good luck on your surgery and may God bless.
Hi All,
Just want to thank GunrunnerJohn for the schematic for the 555 version of the barking watchdog, and all that contributed to this project!
Completed four units today, one spare and one each using on 3 TIU channels.
Let me know if I tested it correctly - Powered DCS-RC with 18 Vac and monitored the DCS-RC green LED with a scope. I take it that the led blinks every time a reset is initiated. (please let me know if that assumption is incorrect) So seeing the led blink with reset board installed, next step was to hook up an o'scope and check timing. It appeared spot on 1 sec. for resets, now does that translate into one second watchdog signals? Here are some pics of the wave forms on the led. I do not have the DCS components anywhere close to being installed, as trying it in real time with real loco's would be the gold standard test. All help and comments are always welcome. Thanks in Advance.
Correct, there are only three connections to the DCS-RC WD board. 5VDC, GND, and RESET. The RESET pulses briefly once a second to reset the processor in the DCS-RC and force a WD generation.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Correct, there are only three connections to the DCS-RC WD board. 5VDC, GND, and RESET. The RESET pulses briefly once a second to reset the processor in the DCS-RC and force a WD generation.
Thanks for the verification. And thanks again for all your hard work, which made this so easy and effective.
I got a little benefit from the work as well. 
Note the top row... 
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