Benchwork - Wiring - adding elevations

@Aegis21 posted:

The framing is L-girder and the joists can remain while the baseboard could be removed allowing for better access to the back. At present the section is four foot wide. Removing a one foot section gives me a three foot reach instead of four foot. I do have a topside creeper which I am leary about working on for delicate work for extended time periods

so my hope is to cut down on reaching four feet to work on the layout

The facia had me scratching my head too.

The suggestions from Dave and Tom above sound like good solutions. I like the drawer concept. Lot's of heavy duty drawer runners on the market. Use the under-mount type and there would be no clearance issues along the sides of the drawer.
A simple L-bracket attached to the framing that the drawer section can sit on would work as well. A couple of pins would hold it in place when in-use. Just remember to create power blocks so you don't accidentally run a train into the abyss.

Bob

John, I’m getting a bit confused here. Isn’t the bench work already done and aren’t there joists already in place, similar to that in the photo?

This is a closeup on 1 area. The section in gray seems to be where you want the removable shelves. It has roads and buildings on it, so it seems to me you just need to separate it into sections you can reasonably handle when you need to remove them, maybe something like 48”. Since the joists are only 3/4” wide, where the sections meet, I would add another 1x piece to the side of the joist to give you support for the next section. I would attach pins to the sections and drill holes in the joists. If you want to lock them in place, you could add latches of some sort underneath. The facia across those section would be attached to the sections and not to the joists. If you used pins like those on IKEA products, a simple turn would lock things in place without the need for latches.

I have to admit I am curious that you have a topside creeper but seem to be hesitant to use it?

I have used this simple slide for drawers. Maybe this will give you an idea of how to do this with your existing framing. I don't know what tools you have available. I used 3/4" oak and cut a dado as a guide for the drawer rails to slide into. The rails are also oak.

The advantages over mfg'd slides are the cost and, most importantly, there are no latches in the rails to fiddle with while you re-insert the rails. Then, as Dave suggested, you need something to assure they align the same way when seated each time.

If you are going to do this much extra work I suggest working out how not to have any framing sticking out when you remove the sections. So the weight of each section would be outside of the frame and the rails would need to be wider than in the picture and probably extend a foot or so into the framing.

@turkey_hollow_rr posted:

I have to admit I am curious that you have a topside creeper but seem to be hesitant to use it?

Dan,

Searching through previous threads I can see that the topside creeper gets a wide range of reviews--fabulous to not-so-good. I was in that haters group. I resold my Micromark topside creeper to an automotive repair business. For my purpose it was too bulky, heavy, constantly bumped into table legs when trying to reposition it, gave me less reach than expected (compared to just standing on a step ladder), and I just felt uncomfortable leaning against it on a higher rung. But I see that several other modelers absolutely love it!!

@DoubleDAZ posted:

John, I’m getting a bit confused here. Isn’t the bench work already done and aren’t there joists already in place, similar to that in the photo?

This is a closeup on 1 area. The section in gray seems to be where you want the removable shelves. It has roads and buildings on it, so it seems to me you just need to separate it into sections you can reasonably handle when you need to remove them, maybe something like 48”. Since the joists are only 3/4” wide, where the sections meet, I would add another 1x piece to the side of the joist to give you support for the next section. I would attach pins to the sections and drill holes in the joists. If you want to lock them in place, you could add latches of some sort underneath. The facia across those section would be attached to the sections and not to the joists. If you used pins like those on IKEA products, a simple turn would lock things in place without the need for latches.

Sorry if the pics add confusion. The L-Girders are all completed with their joists attached to the legs of those sections. The joists that go in-between the legs are placed on for my lack of mentally visualizing the joists height and separations. At this time the removable shelves should only have buildings and scenery so no track to align and power block for safety. I can fit in between joists that are spaced out 16" and will aim for that spacing. Good idea with the facia attached to the "drawer"  I am hoping 16" joist centers will be strong enough for the layout. Pins seem to be the way to go and would I need the slides or would it be simplier to pull it out of the pins and lift out?

@RSJB18 posted:

The facia had me scratching my head too.

The suggestions from Dave and Tom above sound like good solutions. I like the drawer concept. Lot's of heavy duty drawer runners on the market. Use the under-mount type and there would be no clearance issues along the sides of the drawer.
A simple L-bracket attached to the framing that the drawer section can sit on would work as well. A couple of pins would hold it in place when in-use. Just remember to create power blocks so you don't accidentally run a train into the abyss.

Bob

Hi Bob, Thanks for the excellent suggestions. The areas will not have track so that will be one less worry for sure, thanks for that input though as I tend to forget details like those... I am thinking the joists will be the L brackets so I will need some lateral stability from underneath  and again the pinning is appreciated.

@turkey_hollow_rr posted:

I have to admit I am curious that you have a topside creeper but seem to be hesitant to use it?

I have used this simple slide for drawers. Maybe this will give you an idea of how to do this with your existing framing. I don't know what tools you have available. I used 3/4" oak and cut a dado as a guide for the drawer rails to slide into. The rails are also oak.

The advantages over mfg'd slides are the cost and, most importantly, there are no latches in the rails to fiddle with while you re-insert the rails. Then, as Dave suggested, you need something to assure they align the same way when seated each time.

If you are going to do this much extra work I suggest working out how not to have any framing sticking out when you remove the sections. So the weight of each section would be outside of the frame and the rails would need to be wider than in the picture and probably extend a foot or so into the framing.

I like the simple drawer design and implementation. Over the many years I have collected quite a bit of wood working tools and equipment. So the costs would be materials and time. Good thought on keeping the framing within bounds so to speak. I'll certainly give that a look and see if I can come up with a design that will not be to complicated.

@Bruce Brown posted:

Dan,

Searching through previous threads I can see that the topside creeper gets a wide range of reviews--fabulous to not-so-good. I was in that haters group. I resold my Micromark topside creeper to an automotive repair business. For my purpose it was too bulky, heavy, constantly bumped into table legs when trying to reposition it, gave me less reach than expected (compared to just standing on a step ladder), and I just felt uncomfortable leaning against it on a higher rung. But I see that several other modelers absolutely love it!!

Bruce,

I have read both good and not so good reports on the topside creeper for this work. One of the reasons I went L-Grider construction was to keep the legs to a minimum so this beast could be used. My space is small and getting smaller with every piece of lumber I install. That is why I am looking at avoiding it's use as much as possible. There will be area's that I will still need to use it, but keeping those to a minimum seems to be the prudent way to proceed.

Thanks for your input, it supports my fears! LOL

As much as I advocate for walk-in non duck under construction there were a few spots on my RR where I needed a cloud hook.

I have the standard topside creeper and appreciate it very much.  However I can see how it might not work well in tight aisles.

The Micro Mart creeper is the basic less expensive model.  I did not know it at the time I ordered mine but Top Side Creepers are made much stronger and even larger for those with a bit more heft.  Check out their website.  Stronger models are available.  Would not want to be without mine.  At my 220# and sore joints this one serves me well.

Even with the Micro Mart one I can cantilever myself out pretty far beyond the top pad to do work in the corner of my upper level.  There are also a couple of valves I need to access in a far back corner over the bench work for outside spigots each winter.

I do not fold mine up it just seems that I use it often enough to keep it up.

Dave and Everyone,

Where the two drawers/facia's meet I will go with your suggestion of adding another 1x4 joist so there will be 1.5" face to maybe velcro the facia to? Or should I go with a cover piece on one side that overlaps the other side? Hope that isn't confusing.  btw here are a couple of more pics, minimum joists are fastened in these pics. The sections nearest are fastened down and ready for electrical work to start when the removable section is finalized. I threw a piece of plywood on top just to see "table Height" and how the perspective looks. That will be back down asap so I can wire from above.

@Tom Tee posted:

As much as I advocate for walk-in non duck under construction there were a few spots on my RR where I needed a cloud hook.

I have the standard topside creeper and appreciate it very much.  However I can see how it might not work well in tight aisles.

The Micro Mart creeper is the basic less expensive model.  I did not know it at the time I ordered mine but Top Side Creepers are made much stronger and even larger for those with a bit more heft.  Check out their website.  Stronger models are available.  Would not want to be without mine.  At my 220# and sore joints this one serves me well.

Even with the Micro Mart one I can cantilever myself out pretty far beyond the top pad to do work in the corner of my upper level.  There are also a couple of valves I need to access in a far back corner over the bench work for outside spigots each winter.

I do not fold mine up it just seems that I use it often enough to keep it up.

Hi Tom, I have a heavy duty creeper and it is stable and doesn't flich at my 230# weight. That said when I go up and out on it, I start to feel it in my back and tired muscles, or lack of muscles. lol I will be using it for sure but I personally want to keep its use at a minimum. Not sure if I can get it out of the area at this point which I need to check out because there is no place to store it inside the layout. opps!

John, maybe these photos will show things a little better. You can see the Brown joists as well as the added Orange supports. There is the Green base decking with the tracks as well as Blue panels (if needed) that remain in place. The 2 Yellow panels (shelves) have Black pins that fit into the White holes in the joints/supports. The panels sit on a support on 1 side and a joist on the other side. Given the joists are only 16" apart, I see no need for added support or latches for the panels, but that would be your decision. Again, if you use IKEA-type pins, you can lock things down with a simple twist with a screwdriver. Note: If you have powered accessories/lighted buildings on the panel, you'll need to add plug-in power connections of some sort. While drawer slides are neat, I'm not sure they'd be worth the expense and hassle. Again, your decision.

@Aegis21 posted:

...Not sure if I can get it out of the area at this point which I need to check out because there is no place to store it inside the layout. opps!

Have you given consideration to removing some legs?  A large portion of my wall mounted layout is cantilevered on 3/4" plywood knees which provides a clear floor to the wall.  This opens up many spots where I could store the creeper.

Hi Tom,

I am certainly envious of your design and carpentry skills! Very impressive and totally functional!
With l-girder there are not many legs to eliminate. The walking area inside the layout is tight and I am out of room in other parts of the basement to store the creeper. I can see storage an issue besides the maneuvering under the bench work. As you can see from some pics I am already playing musical boxes with trains and bench work.

thanks for the suggestion and again I love your work

@DoubleDAZ posted:

John, maybe these photos will show things a little better. You can see the Brown joists as well as the added Orange supports. There is the Green base decking with the tracks as well as Blue panels (if needed) that remain in place. The 2 Yellow panels (shelves) have Black pins that fit into the White holes in the joints/supports. The panels sit on a support on 1 side and a joist on the other side. Given the joists are only 16" apart, I see no need for added support or latches for the panels, but that would be your decision. Again, if you use IKEA-type pins, you can lock things down with a simple twist with a screwdriver. Note: If you have powered accessories/lighted buildings on the panel, you'll need to add plug-in power connections of some sort. While drawer slides are neat, I'm not sure they'd be worth the expense and hassle. Again, your decision.

Hi Dave

thanks for the amazing illustrations which help me a lot! Three to four foot sections are now my goal. The balance between minimizing lines and being able to handle the sections will be interesting. Thanks for reminding me to consider electrical work to buildings, signal etc. I will look at this after Christmas

Merry Christmas to all!!!!

As far as drawer guides go I found that wood guides can be seasonal and age sensitive.  I now use common commercial drawer guides available in many lengths for my circuit panels.  These guides are commonly found in any home center.

Hi Dave,

the illustrations made it so easy to understand the  build. This looks like a great place to begin design. Not sure if wood  pegs would last or if I should use some metal pins? I know there shouldn't be a highly repetitive use for much wear but am I just asking for trouble later? And precision should not be a factor.

Thanks

Tom,

I'm liking the slides for use on the electrical control area. Mount transformer, tiu, aiu, remote commander with for hit breakers on pull out drawers.

Thanks!

This is what I did with a few drawer slides. They have their place.

John, obviously metal pins and metal inserts would be the better option, but I’m not sure you need that much precision. Metal pins would minimize accidentally breaking off a pin, but a simple hole drilled into the base should be sufficient for the pin to go in. However, since the removable panels will be along the edge of the layout where they can be bumped, you might want to lock them in place with some sort of latch. There are spring loaded latches that pretty much serve both purposes, alignment and locking in place.

https://www.amazon.com/Heavy-S...ps%2C119&sr=8-41

Dave,

Thanks for the latch idea and the link! Seems with the spacing of joists (appx. 16") possibly 32" sections with a couple of latches might do the trick.

Dan,

That is thinking outside the rails for sure. Great idea, everyone on here is amazing!

Thanks All!

Ok I am sorting out a wiring plan for the layout. I have the basic idea of star wiring and will have a control panel with transformer, tiu, aiu's circuit breakers and lionel legacy equipment all tied in (hopefully correctly)

Unfortunately I was procuring items for control over the past several years (i.e. before MTH called it quits and was transitioning to WTIU's  So I have a TIU rev.L with two hand held controllers and I hope I do not need another TIU because of capacity. I have things broken out to 3 "Districts" and several blocks from those districts. Not sure if one tiu will handle the size of the layout, any ideas on how to test things out before I put the top on the benchwork. I am trying to do most wiring from above, so I do not want to "close" the top off with plywood just yet.

Happy New Years Alll

And

Thanks in Advance

John

John, As I recall, I have read you can use both of the fixed outputs and both of the variable outputs to power individual districts.  I would ahve to dig into Barry's book or search here on the Forum for how to make all 4 work.

@Mark Boyce posted:

John, As I recall, I have read you can use both of the fixed outputs and both of the variable outputs to power individual districts.  I would ahve to dig into Barry's book or search here on the Forum for how to make all 4 work.

Hi Mark,

It appears from doing a second pass at power distribution, I will have three districts so possibly three channels of the tiu will be good enough. I’ll have to read how the Lionel legacy interfaces with this set up and will two AIU’s be enough? I will be experimenting with ota switch control by micro processors. The plan is to have this system switch turnouts , control track power blocks, sense block occupancy and control signals. Plan on using AIU’s to tell micros which switch to throw and what blocks need power. I hope I am not biting off much more than I can chew

btw you have been doing a fantastic job with your layout!

John, thank you for the comment on my layout!

Keep asking questions here or make new topics with questions as you proceed with the electronic side of the layout.  You will find someone here who has done just about anything you can think of doing on your layout.

Thanks Mark for the sage advice! I am sure if it is doable it has been done here! Great people on this forum with not only a vast amount of knowledge but the kindness to share without hesitation.

At the moment I am finishing up the L-Girder joists by marking out where the sheets of plywood will meet and double up joists at those locations. There always seems to be so much to "finish" before moving to the next chapter of the build. My Goal is to have the L-Girder completely done waiting for plywood, also the main power feed terminal blocks installed and feeder wires run and at least connected at the distribution end before my next knee replacement. That is scheduled for Feb. 10th which I know the way things go this is an ambitious goal. I'll post pics as I move along.

John, good luck with the knee and follow doctor’s/therapist’s orders.

Thanks Dave, I am not looking forward to it, but will do what I am told.

John, In a way it is good to know what you are in for, but in another way it is bad.  I dread going back for a second knee replacement, but so far my right one is good.  Now if we could get that sciatic nerve to settle down, we would be getting somewhere!   

I hope you are able to make good progress on the layout between now and then.

Thanks Mark for encouraging words. I am hoping this knee will not be worse than the first one. At least I've run out of knees lol

John, you occasionally allude to the rest of the basement...Is there a print of the entire basement floor plan?  Is there some way to penetrate a wall for a mainline run through so as to narrow the benchwork and open the aisle a bit.

Some folks run a line into and  through the family room featuring full scenery which provides a very nice RR touch to an other wise same old same old family room.

Any  time you can get 90 or 180 degrees of curvature out of the train room you can gain either increased real estate or aisle space.

@Tom Tee posted:

John, you occasionally allude to the rest of the basement...Is there a print of the entire basement floor plan?  Is there some way to penetrate a wall for a mainline run through so as to narrow the benchwork and open the aisle a bit.

Some folks run a line into and  through the family room featuring full scenery which provides a very nice RR touch to an other wise same old same old family room.

Any  time you can get 90 or 180 degrees of curvature out of the train room you can gain either increased real estate or aisle space.

Hi Tom,

The rest of the basement is off limits according to my boss. It is a finished room, with ceiling tiles, painted and decorated walls, with TV, couches, refrigerator, kitchen table. Sorry to say, It is definitely off limits. Basic foot print of basement is 24' x 50' with basement stuff, like furnace, hot water heater, well tank and water softener. Plus a small area for my tropical fish display. So what you see is what I have, which I am grateful for, as the biggest layout I ever had before was 4x8.

Thanks for the recommendation, great ideas for sure!

John I just saw second knee replacement and read back and saw questions about TIU, AIU, etc.

We have one TIU, four power districts, 4 AIUs, 40-50 relays, a ZW-L, and a second TIU and ZW-L, etc for when we resume laying track. If we can help with any of that, please let us know.

We are very interested in your use of microprocessors to control it all. That is beyond us.

Interested in knee replacement because #2 for me is scheduled for 2/14. Do not look forward to it.

@Bill Webb posted:

John I just saw second knee replacement and read back and saw questions about TIU, AIU, etc.

We have one TIU, four power districts, 4 AIUs, 40-50 relays, a ZW-L, and a second TIU and ZW-L, etc for when we resume laying track. If we can help with any of that, please let us know.

We are very interested in your use of microprocessors to control it all. That is beyond us.

Interested in knee replacement because #2 for me is scheduled for 2/14. Do not look forward to it.

Hi Bill,

wow that is a lot of relays for sure. How are they divided up, turnouts vs accessories? I am Basically working on the AIU's to connect with a microprocessor to Bluetooth or maybe work to a remote that controls turnouts/accessories. Also have detection boards report back to base micro block occupancy and block lower to set signals properly. This has been a parallel project that will get more time while my knee heals and layout work will stop temporarily. I will start to post some updates as some of the sections of this project progress to the testing stage.

My second knee is scheduled 2\10\22 and I am almost dreading it. First knee was not fun for sure. Had both hips replaced and those were really easy.

Good luck on your surgery and may God bless.

Hi All,

Just want to thank GunrunnerJohn for the schematic for the 555 version of the barking watchdog, and all that contributed to this project!

Completed four units today, one spare and one each using on 3 TIU channels.

Let me know if I tested it correctly - Powered DCS-RC with 18 Vac and monitored the DCS-RC green LED with a scope. I take it that the led blinks every time a reset is initiated. (please let me know if that assumption is incorrect) So seeing the led blink with reset board installed, next step was to hook up an o'scope and check timing. It appeared spot on 1 sec. for resets, now does that translate into one second watchdog signals? Here are some pics of the wave forms on the led. I do not have the DCS components anywhere close to being installed, as trying it in real time with real loco's would be the gold standard test. All help and comments are always welcome. Thanks in Advance.

Correct, there are only three connections to the DCS-RC WD board.  5VDC, GND, and RESET.  The RESET pulses briefly once a second to reset the processor in the DCS-RC and force a WD generation.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Correct, there are only three connections to the DCS-RC WD board.  5VDC, GND, and RESET.  The RESET pulses briefly once a second to reset the processor in the DCS-RC and force a WD generation.

Thanks for the verification. And thanks again for all your hard work, which made this so easy and effective.

I got a little benefit from the work as well.   Note the top row...