Newbie question-operating systems

Welcome, I use MTH Railking locos because they are affordable and if you notice they are 100-150 cheaper than the MTH Premier counterparts and smaller. I'm not a fan of Lionchief/lionchief Plus because the remote can only control that engine unless you use a universal remote

I'm not the person to give opinions on all of the operating systems out there.  However I will say the whichever one you choose, be sure that it will be compatible with all of the trains you would like to buy.

First to clarify - My idea of the primary benefit of a digital control system is that it allows MULTIPLE locos to simultaneously be run on the same track using just one remote.

Thus, Lionel Legacy and MTH's DCS are the primary systems allowing this. One cannot control the other brand's locos outright* but the two systems can coexist on the same layout without interfering with the each other.

MTH takes the route of incorporating the DCS guts into most of their locos so all you have to add is the remote and base unit to your layout to gain full remote control of your DCS fleet.

Lionel takes a more cloudy approach - Lionel's original system was TMCC. It consisted basically of TMCC equipped locos and a remote and base unit that could control them all on a single layout.

This system has now been replaced with the newer Legacy control system. Same idea. Just better features. The Legacy system is backward compatible to work with any TMCC equipment. 

The latest development, primarily for starter sets, is the LionChief. Instead of using TMCC or Legacy internals, these locos use a simpler system and each loco talks to a dedicated remote. The LC and LC+ have the same basic control internals. The LC+ just has more operational features like speed control and fan driven smoke units. These LC system can also coexist on a layout that has Legacy and/or DCS installed. They just can't be controlled from the Legacy or DCS remotes.

* If both systems are present on a layout, the DCS remote can control most of the features of Lionel's system but it still requires the purchase of the Lionel remote and base so, at that point, you might as well use the dedicated Lionel remote.

Troy O,

    In reality all these different systems can be used together, however some like your Lion Chief are actually made with their own hand held remotes and are for the most part a stand alone operation.  However set up properly with the Lionel Legacy system and DCS you can actually run all the different engines on the same tracks.  The MTH DCS package can run both 90% of the Legacy/TMCC engines, and all P2 & P3 engines and all Conventional engines, like your older Lionel stuff.  However TMCC/Legacy can not run P2 or P3 engines except in the Conventional mode.  If you are interested in the newer control systems for your son, I recommend you 1st invest in both the OGR Video Guide to DCS and Barry's bookThe DCS O Gauge Companion 3rd addition, these two instructional formats offer most everything you will want to learn, they will save you lots of time and frustration, when building your 1st DCS/Legacy layout.  You will quickly learn that the new O Gauge trains are remote control, and there is a lot more to them then when you were a kid.  I run DCS, Legacy and Lion Chief all on Lionel FasTrack and MTH RealTrax, and it's a lot of fun doing it.  Further you came to the absolute best place to get advise as you learn the new O Gauge Train Control Systems.  The OGR is the best forum on the Net.  There are very experienced and knowledgable people here you can interface with, most any time you need help with your Trains.

Welcome back to a great hobby.  

PCRR/Dave

 The Christmas Train on the inner most circle of the multi level Christmas layout is a Lion Chief Santa Express that operates like your Polar Express Lion Chief.  The tack is also set up to run with the Legacy System and the DCS system also.  

Now with the MTH I would need a remote commander for operation seeing that all I have is a wall brick. I guess I'm just wanting to make sure I'm headed in the right direction when I decide on a system to go with. With ho scale it's just dcc and its all compatible for the most part and that's not the case from what I'm seeing with o gauge

Well, take each one separately and try and understand each one. They came out sometimes many years apart and so you are actually looking back in time, if you will. As decoders inside of engine got more complex, systems came out by different manufacturers that utilized these features.

 TMCC is Lionel's earlier system and actually provides a lot of features if you fully understand the remote and the functions. If you study DCC and what it can do, it will help you understand what TMCC is capable of doing. Now you have to realize that there were a lot of advancements to decoders in the years while TMCC was used. To me, Legacy was the next generation and made things easier for the operator by adding controls to the remote that were more user friendly. You didn't need to memorize the steps to access features with several special button pushes.

 MTH's systems were also going forward over these years and they released their PS2 boards for command control. The earlier PS1 was an early attempt at utilizing features that the boards were capable of while in a conventional (just a transformer) environment. PS3 is their modern release in command that offers more features and runs more state of the art while still compatible with older PS2 engines.

 Both of these systems are each manufacturer's own version of command. DCS can control a Legacy/TMCC system through use of a cable. The Legacy controls are limited to basic ones when done threw the DCS remote. Neither will operate DCC equipped engines. MTH's latest boards inside their engines are DCC capable though.

 I'm tired of typing! more to come....

Edit: several other replies came so there was a lot of duplicate info!

Well thanks for the replies! With that being said you have answered most of my questions and it sounds like I'll be purchasing MTH dcs system and doing some reading and learning as I start getting back into this. I've already measured out the basement and started making rough plans for the limited space I have which is 20x6

Troy O,

   You made a very good decision, if you purchase the DCS System and a couple P2 or P3 engines, you can set up and run most everything.  Further it's a lot easier to add the Legacy System to DCS than the other way around.  Purchase the OGR Video Guide to DCS, it's a great visual learning mode, especially for the beginner.   Make sure to get Barry's DCS O Gauge Companion 3rd addition book, it's the Bible on building your complete DCS layout.  It also teaches how to blend DCS and TMCC/Legacy together, into a nice running package.

PCRR/Dave

With what all I know about command control, you can use TMCC or Legacy & DCS together but must have both systems to do so and have the connector cable. 

Another system that I have heard about is the MTH DCS commander or basic DCS system, however I recommend going with the full DCS system so you won't be limited to only a few engines able to be controlled. The DCS commander also don't have switch features, you can't add a TIU(track interface unit) to the smaller DCS system. With full DCS you can run up to 99 engines if I am correct and use 5 TIU's with for switches and accessories.

See which system you like first then see about purchasing it. Basically learn about features and costs of the system you are looking at & then decide.

Another note about remote controlled or operating cars from Williams by Bachmann is that they don't work with any other remote besides the Bachmann remote. NO command control features in the WBB items unless you install the command control system in the WBB car. K-Line also had a remote control for some operating cars and from what I have read on the Williams/Bachmann site the new Williams/Bachmann remote works with K-Line operating cars(these too don't work with any command control system unless installed in the car after you purchase it).

Lee Fritz

I too was completely befuddled at control systems. I found Eric Siegel's video tutorial very helpful.

It is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caIPXwkqNb4

Be aware that the video predates the arrival of Lion Chief!

troy o posted:

I recently purchased my son the Lionel polar express lion chief set for Christmas to get the ball rolling so to speak and have come to realize the amount of different operating systems for o gauge. Is any of it compatible? You have tmcc, legacy, lion chief, dcs,ps2, ps3, ect... To a guy that was in the hobby 30+ years ago and it was all just conventional wiring its pretty confusing. My local hobby shop isn't much help, they sell some stuff but nobody is very knowledgeable about o gauge. I have a switcher from when I was younger and don't think it will work with the new set without some serious rigging or a new transformer. I want to expand but don't know which way to go. I see some locos out there with a better price point than Lionel but don't think I can use them with the set I currently have and don't want to be stuck using only lion chief products but also don't want my current purchase to be a waste of time and money either. Sorry if it sounds stupid but there's a lot of variables and options and was looking for some advice and opinions as which direction to go in my expansion of the layout and the hobby in general. Thanks in advance.

I got back in the hobby around 2011 after a long hiatus of many years. I know exactly what you are going through. It is now like a new hobby. I am still learning the differences myself, but they are a lot clearer now after a few years of learning. The answers above are all good, but I can see where still you might be confused. I will try to simplify (or further confuse) things a bit more here, without throwing in any personal preferences.

Eric Seigel's video above is very good as well, I have learned a lot from Eric's youtube channel.

Lion Chief Polar Express - the set you have can run on any track with 18 volts AC or DC using it's set specific remote controller. Now, to simplify things I am only going to talk about 18 volts AC on the track from now on. DCS, TMCC/Legacy and Lion Chief Plus can all run on the same tracks with 18 volts AC at the same time with your LC Polar Express set. 

To keep things basic here, you can add DCS, Legacy/TMCC or Lion Chief Plus to what you have now, but you will need to get an 18 Volt AC power supply or transformer. Lionel warns against more than 18-19 volts, most folks keep it at 18 to be safe. The modern electronic engines need good, fast circuit protection that the older transformers don't provide so if you use one of those you will need to add these items before running your electronic command control engines or risk damage to the electronics. The folks here can help explain further with all that when the time comes, as as you go along.

There are also a couple of less expensive control sets for each manufacturer's trains that don't allow full control of DCS or Legacy engines, DCS Remote Commander and the Legacy CAB1L/BASE1L. Again, ask as you go if you are interested in these.

Just as an FYI, there is also a CAB1/BASE1 original TMCC controler that is now obsolete. I would avoid that one as it will only be available used and I believe some of it's parts may also obsolete so it may not be repairable if you have problems? MTH also makes the DCS Commander which was designed for HO, I would avoid that one as well for O gauge anyway. 

The older engines you have are conventional. They can be operated with a transformer handle or with either the full DCS system as it comes or the Legacy/TMCC systems with the addition of some additional items. Here it's easiest to just say that conventional engines can be run by themselves and not with the other command control engines. Again ask as you go and lots of folks will be able to help you with more details. 

Maybe that will help with most of the things available give you a general idea of what can be done (unless I missed something that is?). Again, further details can be provided on all these things, I just thought it might be easier to try the basics and then you could get more details on them one at a time. Hope it helps you a little. 

Also, similar to yours, my LHS knows the basics of the command control stuff, but not like the folks around here do. I learned most everything (not that I know that much) here and by reading about the manufacturer's systems in their catalogs and on their websites. This is by far the best place. Good luck.

with the MTH dcs system you must purchase a controller or use the app on a phone with a wifi adaptor, and a TIU.  the mth signal is in the track so the track has to be fairly  clean.

https://mthtrains.com/sites/de...ction/20as14017i.pdf

lionel legacy system comes with a remote and only one wire to the track. simple answer, the signal is in the air.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lz-yt4K_b8I

both systems work with almost any transformer or brick.

I think the advise from everyone is pretty spot and hopefully helpful. There is one point that I haven't seen made and would like to add. It's almost certain that the LionCheif set you have came with a DC power source for the track. Any next step you take will be to get rid of that DC power supply and power the track using an AC power supply.  It can be anything extravagant to simple as long as it is providing (up to) 18v AC to the track.  I will say, if you want to run your older stuff, a conventional transformer will do the trick. If your just gonna run newer command controlled stuff, any power source that provides a constant 18v will do

Oh...and not to worry about that LionCheif set that you are running on DC.  Lionel designs those engines to run on either AC or DC. 

bigdodgetrain posted:

with the MTH dcs system you must purchase a controller or use the app on a phone with a wifi adaptor, and a TIU.  the mth signal is in the track so the track has to be fairly  clean.

https://mthtrains.com/sites/de...ction/20as14017i.pdf

 

lionel legacy system comes with a remote and only one wire to the track. simple answer, the signal is in the air.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lz-yt4K_b8I

both systems work with almost any transformer or brick.

I am not 100% sure but I thought that you needed the DCS base equipped with wi-fi feature along with the TIU in order to do blue tooth. Maybe Barry Broskowitz(the DCS guru) can chime in on what is needed.

Lee Fritz

bigdodgetrain posted:

with the MTH dcs system you must purchase a controller or use the app on a phone with a wifi adaptor, and a TIU.  the mth signal is in the track so the track has to be fairly  clean.

https://mthtrains.com/sites/de...ction/20as14017i.pdf

 

lionel legacy system comes with a remote and only one wire to the track. simple answer, the signal is in the air.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lz-yt4K_b8I

both systems work with almost any transformer or brick.

The MTH DCS system comes with the remote, unless your buy a stand alone TIU, either way, the remote is required.  Even with the Wifi system, you still have to have the DCS remote as the Wifi App is still very limited.

The Lionel Signal is in the track as well, the single wire is for the signal, you still have two wires for the power.  If the signal was strictly RF, you wouldn't need the base or wire to the rail, only the remote.

There are completely wireless systems, including some on Bluetooth, but that is with DCC only.  Power is still via track or by battery.

Barry's book is the best investment, as he covers it all.

   You didnt mention steam, diesel, big or small on the switcher, but it might be able to be run off a TMCC board by Electronic Railroad. If you don't add sound you should fit it easy. With sound, the speaker often cramps things most.

I can't help you with your existing engine but if starting over I would definitely examine the new Lionel System in the Link below......   No command base required (Lionel) or TIU required(mth stuff). Unlimited range between  controller  & engine  .  The controller talks directly to the engine... You could even run your old stuff  using  an old Lionel transformer if  used as the power supply.  (yep fuses required)

I wouldn't be surprised to see upgrade receivers  available down the road with cruise and other features.

I think  Lionel has a winner on their  hands. Just my 2 cents    Gregg

https://ogrforum.com/t...duct-review-and-demo

The Lion Chief loco will run in conventional (old school transformer) and then your old stuff will work with the new. I run conventional only and LOVE it. Just a different opinion. 

Keep in mind that If you go with DCS, you Cannot run any other Mfg. engine Without adding TMCC or legacy.

However Lionchief will work as it has it's own remote system.

Jim 1939 posted:

Keep in mind that If you go with DCS, you Cannot run any other Mfg. engine Without adding TMCC or legacy.

However Lionchief will work as it has it's own remote system.

Not accurate. You can run all other manufacturer locos in conventional mode. It actually works well too.

If you do not have to have walk around control, want to save money, have many engines, and keep life simple go for conventional control.  Others have said all the systems will run conventional.  Post war locos can be had for $35 or so verses a minimum of $100 for a engine.

Walk around control sounds simple with a constant voltage to the tracks but you must do with a remote control, setting it up all the stuff you have with setting us a modern flat screen TV.  The wiring of conventional control is simple 75 year old wiring and track, switches and all the gear you could want are available relatively cheap at train meets and train club trade days.  And anything you could want is on eBay and OGR forum although prices may be higher than the former.

You can get info for this forum, OGR and CTT magazines new and old but you must do some self study and learn and be informed and then make you decision.  It would help to know what you like, want and can afford and know yourself as to your abilities and interests.

In my case, I knew I wanted a complicated multitrain operating layout that would keep our interest for years.  I also am a good builder, scratch modeler, do it yourselfer and can use and have lots of tools and electrical electronics experience (other major hobby is repairing and running vintage 70s stereos).  My layout has 27 Marx switches, can run 5trains at once and has a scratch built turntable.  I run Lionel and Marx, most from the 40s and 50s with a few new.

Check this running post out for my layout.

https://ogrforum.com/t...ra-027-layout?page=1

Charlie

TexasSP posted:

Jim 1939 posted:

Keep in mind that If you go with DCS, you Cannot run any other Mfg. engine Without adding TMCC or legacy.

However Lionchief will work as it has it's own remote system.

Not accurate. You can run all other manufacturer locos in conventional mode. It actually works well too.

Since we were talking about remotes here I did not include the word conventional.

TexasSP posted:

The Lionel Signal is in the track as well, the single wire is for the signal, you still have two wires for the power.  If the signal was strictly RF, you wouldn't need the base or wire to the rail, only the remote.

.

then please explain how people with a test track not even connected to the layout have lionel command operations?

the wire for the legacy completes the "circuit" the signal is not in the track.

want to test this, find a spot with a bad signal and hold your hand over the suspect engine and see what happens.

if the signal was in the track nothing would happen.

AMCDave posted:

The Lion Chief loco will run in conventional (old school transformer) and then your old stuff will work with the new. I run conventional only and LOVE it. Just a different opinion. 

only if it is a lionchief plus.

early lionchief will not run in conventional.

phillyreading posted:

bigdodgetrain posted:

with the MTH dcs system you must purchase a controller or use the app on a phone with a wifi adaptor, and a TIU.  the mth signal is in the track so the track has to be fairly  clean.

https://mthtrains.com/sites/de...ction/20as14017i.pdf

 

lionel legacy system comes with a remote and only one wire to the track. simple answer, the signal is in the air.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lz-yt4K_b8I

both systems work with almost any transformer or brick.

I am not 100% sure but I thought that you needed the DCS base equipped with wi-fi feature along with the TIU in order to do blue tooth. Maybe Barry Broskowitz(the DCS guru) can chime in on what is needed.

Lee Fritz

you do understand I stated MTH dcs system? yes it comes with a controller.

bigdodgetrain posted:

TexasSP posted:

The Lionel Signal is in the track as well, the single wire is for the signal, you still have two wires for the power.  If the signal was strictly RF, you wouldn't need the base or wire to the rail, only the remote.

.

then please explain how people with a test track not even connected to the layout have lionel command operations?

 

the wire for the legacy completes the "circuit" the signal is not in the track.

want to test this, find a spot with a bad signal and hold your hand over the suspect engine and see what happens.

if the signal was in the track nothing would happen.

Sorry but that is incorrect. If you observe page 9 of the legacy manual you will see that the wire to the negative side of the track is for the command signal. The track acts as a large antenna. The base antenna is for communication with the remote.  The locomotive picks up the rf signal from the track. If this wasn't so, the base would not be required.

DCS also carries the signal through the track but through the the positive side and it's picked up directly from the track.

This differenceof how the two signals are carried is why both systems can operate together.

TexasSP posted:

bigdodgetrain posted:

TexasSP posted:

The Lionel Signal is in the track as well, the single wire is for the signal, you still have two wires for the power.  If the signal was strictly RF, you wouldn't need the base or wire to the rail, only the remote.

.

then please explain how people with a test track not even connected to the layout have lionel command operations?

 

the wire for the legacy completes the "circuit" the signal is not in the track.

want to test this, find a spot with a bad signal and hold your hand over the suspect engine and see what happens.

if the signal was in the track nothing would happen.

Sorry but that is incorrect. If you observe page 9 of the legacy manual you will see that the wire to the negative side of the track is for the command signal. The track acts as a large antenna. The base antenna is for communication with the remote.  The locomotive picks up the rf signal from the track. If this wasn't so, the base would not be required.

DCS also carries the signal through the track but through the the positive side and it's picked up directly from the track.

This differenceof how the two signals are carried is why both systems can operate together.

 

again please explain why I and others get a tmcc signal on a test track some feet away WITHOUT any wire hooked to the test track???

 work with this every day I believe I understand.

not talking DCS only TMCC.

Again, the base creates an RF signal, which uses the track to carry and enhance it.  The signal travels in the air, and can be picked up with out the antenna attached, but it's weak.  It uses the track power and track to strengthen it.  No different than any other powered antenna. Disconnect it from the RF source, and the source will still produce signal.  The signal will just not be as strong or reliable as with the antenna.

The statement you made was that the track doesn't carry signal, which is what I said is incorrect.  It is clear when you observe page 9 in the legacy manual.

As for your body enhancing or degrading RF signal, that is nothing new.  We used to experience this as kids using rabbit ears on the TV, when you stood a certain way and held the rabbit ears, the signal got better.  When you moved another way and/or released the rabbit ears, it got worse.  Your body is just helping to better gather/condense the signal.  As for all the how's and why's this happens, that is above my pay grade.  But as we know, our bodies are a pretty complex electrical generator.

TexasSP posted:

.  The signal travels in the air, .

this is what I said you just want to argue.

No. You said there was no signal carried by the track and that the track wire was there to complete a circuit.

The track carries the signal and acts as an antenna. I never denied there was rf or that it traveled through the the air.  I said it did not work how you explained it. Not arguing. The proof is in the facts of the legacy documentation.

I spent 5 years working in the field on wireless equipment (cellular systems etc.) and worked directly with rf engineers. I have a good understanding of how it works. 

Disconnect an antenna and you still get signal which is what you are experiencing. However as I said the signal is degraded as the key part of the system is missing. 

TexasSP posted:

No. You said there was no signal carried by the track and that the track wire was there to complete a circuit.

The track carries the signal and acts as an antenna. I never denied there was rf or that it traveled through the the air.  I said it did not work how you explained it. Not arguing. The proof is in the facts of the legacy documentation.

I spent 5 years working in the field on wireless equipment (cellular systems etc.) and worked directly with rf engineers. I have a good understanding of how it works. 

Disconnect an antenna and you still get signal which is what you are experiencing. However as I said the signal is degraded as the key part of the system is missing. 

yup just want to argue which does not help the ops original question!

bigdodgetrain posted:

phillyreading posted:

bigdodgetrain posted:

with the MTH dcs system you must purchase a controller or use the app on a phone with a wifi adaptor, and a TIU.  the mth signal is in the track so the track has to be fairly  clean.

https://mthtrains.com/sites/de...ction/20as14017i.pdf

 

lionel legacy system comes with a remote and only one wire to the track. simple answer, the signal is in the air.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lz-yt4K_b8I

both systems work with almost any transformer or brick.

I am not 100% sure but I thought that you needed the DCS base equipped with wi-fi feature along with the TIU in order to do blue tooth. Maybe Barry Broskowitz(the DCS guru) can chime in on what is needed.

Lee Fritz

you do understand I stated MTH dcs system? yes it comes with a controller.

I bought my MTH DCS system with the hand held remote control and have upgraded to the version 4.2 of the DCS. The DCS system comes with the hand held remote. The add on TIU must be bought separately.

Lee Fritz