Non Existent Reasonable Catenary

Yes, I would purchase it.  But it would have to meet two criteria: One, it would have to work without being screwed to a permanent layout platform (until we move, my layout is on the basement floor).  And two, it would have to be reasonably priced.

Since Lionel has been making locomotives with working pantographs since the first GG1, and other makers have followed suit, I find it a bit puzzling that there have been so few commercial attempts to give them wires under which to run.

I too would like a decent semi scale not overly priced catenary system. I have a number of electric locos.....would like a few more....but would love some overhead wire.  The ability to conduct would be great but not 100% requirement.  I may end up making my own as I don't see a system meeting my specs happening.

Absolutely, I'd buy and realistic looking Catenary system if it would become available.

I never have been able to understand why one of the major manufacturers hasn't offered scale or close-to-scale and easy-to-install operating catenary for the O gauge world.  In the past, I had LGB operating catenary for my Large Scale trains and operating catenary in two scales (HO and Z) for my Marklin trains.  All were scale or very near scale, and easy to install.  The downside was that all were also fairly costly.

Intuitively I think a working catenary, while a really nifty idea, would be extremely difficult to get to work smoothly, etc.  On the other hand, having is spark occasionally would be seriously cool!

One that just looked good and worked would be nice. I think someone who manufactureed a good kit/sets to install them would do a good business.  But I expect doing it right would be a lot of work. 

But on the other hand, I think the invisible ones are acceptable.  I fact, I liked some of the invisible ones I haven't seen.  They were beautifully rendered and quite detailed.

Well, if it could be done in HO and Z, it sure shouldn't be an insurmountable problem for O gauge.  The Z catenary system I had set up on an around the room layout when I lived in Hawaii performed flawlessly and it enabled me to run two trains on the same track independently of each other and through all kinds of switch configurations, including double-slip switches.  Really very cool! Ditto for the HO system, as well as for the more robust LGB catenary.

Are there plans or examples outthere for someone to make a decent easy to assemble system? Just wondering?

I'd be interested in a reasonably priced, realistic catenary, preferably modeled on the Milwaukee Road's installation (the Milwaukee had the country's longest electrified main line). My layout is small, not sure it would work out, but I'd sure like to give it a try.

A number of people have made catenary using Marklin HO wire, which is oversized for HO, and homemade poles or brass ones from Jason's Brass Poles. 

Southwest

That is what is so bizarre about the lack of a reasonably designed, easy to use system in that it's a good example of a thow back to the hobby decades ago when modelers had to making accessories themselves, when there would seem to be a significant amount of models going back an equal amount of decades that could use such a potentially simple accessory. I think creating one for oneself requires the tenacity of a saint with matching willpower which I am the first to admit I lack. Another drawback is immovability from one layout and being to use it in the next. It would seem a homemade system would end up a bundle of pop sickle sticks and wire. Perhaps not but it would take ( I would think) an equal amount of tenancy to disassemble it for reuse.

Several times I heard that someone or some company was going to be introducing a ready made catenary system but nothing seems to have come of it.  Supposedly one guy was going to show his new system at York a couple of years ago.  I went around looking for it and even asked others but never found it there.

Don McQuaid, on his old Milwaukee Road layout had a really nice, very believable catenary system very much modeled after the fairly simple system that the Milwaukee used.  It was not a simple trolley wire but rather an actual supported catenary but it was virtually all wooden poles and wire cross stringers.  He made it himself and I thought he was going to write an article on how to do it.

As to powering trains off the catenary, I can't see much sense in doing that anymore.  With Command Control, either TMCC or DCS, you have such perfect control of each locomotive that you don't need to rely on two different power sources.  Of course, as Electroliner commented, it might be interesting to have an occasional spark where the pantograph meets the wire.

Paul Fischer

Sommerfeldt have re-released some O gauge catenary but the prices are outrageous.

It cannot  be that hard surely, for one of the major manufacturers to do a reasonably priced reasonably realistic system. The previous MTH system was way too chunky looking.

Another consideration is the lack of what we are discussing. If you could compare the cost of a basic command control system, it's attachments, decoders etc to a reasonably simple catenary system, I would think it terms of cost we conventional reprobates would find it more cost effective. It's basically a suspended wire centered above the track. How technically simple is that to produce?..and not prone to complex failures that take a fair amount of knowledge to unravel? And of course cost and the elimination of planned obsolescence. How many simple accessories are still around, still being made, are repairable without fuss and are still selling? Answer: A huge amount.

While I'd like to see that myself even though I don't have any electrics at the moment{that will change thru the passage of time}, the only current recourse is for one to make they're own. To use them as actual powering devises would require a metal frame for the push up of the engine poles/cages{for lack of better termage-sorry},for good contact. Can the cages/poles out there on your engines push up hard enough to make a decent contact..if they can't the whole idea would be useless in a powering aspect.

For "looks", one could build a jig to fabricate plastruct or evergreen plastic into consistantly built overhangs, just like you would for a steel{looking} trestle bridge.

I'd love to have a full 4 car set of the old Milwaukee boxcabs...don't think those are out in O scale...don't think I could afford them if they were{hehehe}.

I, along with you, can't understand why manufacturers don't follow thru on these concepts - when I stepped out of G scale back in my early 20's there were no bi-level commuter cars...there still aren't 27yrs later! Come on! I should finish up my masters I started way back when to cast some resin bi-level commuter cars! 

I've always been intrigued by catenary systems and would like to see something that was reasonably priced. Terry

I've been doing some 'Imagineering' of a system I could make myself and it would not be overly fragile of difficult to set up. I thought using code 70 rail from N scale flex track (I have some on hand) as the contact wire with brass wire for the support of the contact 'rail'. The poles could be wood with drill rod or even welding rod as horizontal support poles. Seems like one of the big 3 could manufacture something similar at a reasonable cost. 

I have a sectional O gauge cantenary system I purchased here in Cedrburg Wi. We had a guy who had an import train bussiness here. The poles are metal with sectional copper wires that clipped on each pole. It was made in Germany. It was designed so that the wire would not just be in the middle of the track so as to reduce wear on the pantographs. It works well Sorry I am not smart enough to post pictures. Visitors are welcome.

I'd like to set up a cat system on part of our railroad which looks reasonable (like the Milwaukee system) for the West, and doesn't cost an arm and a leg.

Someone was thinking about writing an article on how to build them, ... Don in Hawaii maybe?

There is a TM Video that shows a layout that belongs to Ron Zwieg. He has a scale operating catenary line on his beautiful layout. TM made a video of his layout in the late 90's. There he shows how he and a friend made it. It was very interesting. It looks like it still operates as well as when it was first constructed. I have never seen it in person but I do have both videos. Very nicely done.

Below is a trailer for one of the video's.

There was an article in O Gauge Railroading in  February 2009 about HOW TO BUILD A CANTENARY SYSTEM by Ken Webster.  April 2005 in Railmodel Journal the article was SIMPLE ELECTRIC CANTENARY BY V.V. Roseman.  Then someone by the name of Bill Kachel had some drawings for doing cantenary PRR style.  I had them in an email and can't find them.  At least this will give you a place to start.

I'd be a buyer for a reasonably prreason lose to scale system.  It wouldn't even have to be powered, but it would have to be able to be retrofit to permanently laid track.

Electroliner, I have an article coming out soon in OGR on how to make your own inexpensive overhead wire. It's a real how to that anyone can make. Don

http://www.ogaugerr.com/railro...ssue.php?&mag=55 this is the link to Feb/March 2009 OGR.  Can you tell me where the article is?

 ok after doing some research I found these 2 listings on a finished EBAY auction

#164
Build A Catenary System  By Ken Webster  92
TCA Pre-York Museum Report
By Christopher B Ritchie  69
The Webster Family Layout
By Ken Webster  86
Scouting And Railroading
By Herbert W Koch  77
Adding Dimension to Cardstock Flats
By Les Lewis  81
The Strasburg Railroad Tower, Part Three
By James, Jacoby  98
Modeling The John Bull, Part One
By Tony English  102


#165
Special: Interview With Lionel Executives
By Barry Lewis  20
O Scale Catenary Systems
By Ed Duddy  80
The Lancaster Toy & Train Exhibit at The Children's Museum of Virginia
By Sandy Cameron-Adams  72
The Camden & Amboy
By Russ Kress  84
The Golden Gate Lionel RR Club
By Stuart Armstrong  69
MTH 1999 Vol. H
By Ed Boyle 91
Lionel for 1999
By Ed Boyle  95

Just checked the article by Ken Webster in OGR Run 164. It's an excellent article worth seeking out if you would like to build some catenary. Ed Duddy's article in the following issue is also good, if a little more technical in nature.

Both are available on the OGR Digital Archive DVD Vol 5.

....but I'll be looking forward to Don's upcoming OGR article - also sure to be a winner.

Jim

Catenary on a layout might look cool but it would certainly impede access and maintenance, besides being possibly tedious to construct. I like to think that the center third rail is a might-have-been real-world alternative method for railroad electrification.

Wasn't there a catenary made by "House of Duddy" that was popular and perhaps somewhat of a standard retail issue?

Building a catenary system is not for everyone.  Systems have been made by people and things must be considered.  If you want a super scale looking system with fine wire, here is what goes on.  As the locomotive travels under the fine scale looking catenary, the pan pushes the wire up and it looks like people doing the wave at a football game.  Not very good looking.  You need good pressure with the pan on the wire to keep good contact. 

If you take the time to build a system like this, it would be insane not to power it. 

The second approach is sectional catenary.  When Mike Wolf studied my system I told him the key to sectional catenary is to have the poles one hundred percent rigid.  No side sway or the wire looks like crap.  The key to keeping straight wire is rigid poles.

Doing sectional catenary is the best if you want perfect operation.  I had a bit of an edge as I am a toy train guy and wanted to build a system that looked like something that might have been built by Lionel in 1956.  I used Marklin HO gauge catenary wire and custom made  (rigid) poles.  It works perfect and has for many years.  Make your poles out of metal welded to a metal base.  The cross arm can be wood or plastic. 

Yes, most manufacturers  make electric locomotives that are beautiful.  Most of the locomotives need extra strength springs on the pans to hold the pan to the contact wire for perfect electrical connection.  If you see a spark, you need more spring tension.  I have seen a few locomotives that are perfect out of the box. 

Again as I stated I am a toy train guy.  I am very demanding on perfect operation.  None of my electric locomotives have third rail pick up rollers under them and it is very rewarding to have live catenary operation.  While operating from the overhead, I use one of my ROW transformers to power the center rail for constant voltage in the passenger cars. 

Catenary operation is very rewarding but not without a lot of work and planning to go with it.  I run several hundred feet of wire.  One other thing the overhead wire does is very rewarding.  When I run a TMCC or Legacy locomotive under the wire (steam or diesel) I throw a switch that is connected to earth ground and import the earth ground into my catenary system and have perfect Legacy/TMCC operation.

I have seen Marty's catenary many times and it is not for the faint of heart but his works perfect! If you could see what Marty has done to his you would see first hand how much work goes into making it right. For me I just would be happy with a non working version just so my electrics look better running around the loop.

Alright...let's take a poll{oh, no!...lol} What kind of cantenary structures would the masses want - looks wise - we can get into working or display only later. A valid question so we could get an idea of what they'd look like-

-simple rustic poles - think telephone/traffic light poles with an outrigger arm or total side span beam

-steel girder with cross bars...lattis type...with a girder arm or span betwwen posts

-combo wooden steel

-your ideas...

Ok, "vote"{speak, type, raise hand or whatever...}

Now that am a Milwaukee fan, a cat seems like a fun idea...if I were building a layout from the start. I would never try to retrofit one onto my existing layout. 

I'd probably want any type catenary system but especially if the simple PRR style. In my area, most were simple H-beam standards.

I'm sure the GG-1s would look a lot better under a wire.

Ron

Perhaps, it's not scale, but MTH's catenary system is adjustable, works with MTH track and was widely available for a number of years.   I recall one member of the Forum modified it, using 2 poles to create Pennsy style K bridges to carry the catenary.  It was expensive (~ list price of $150 for a box of 8 poles and connectors).   Any thoughts about why it didn't catch on?

Forrest, I've done it. It's not the ideal way to do it but it can be done. Remember you don't have to run the wire under every siding and mainline. Don

don, only one of my three main lines does not involve tunnels.  it is upper level only (mountains so Milwaukee appropriate) and would be the most likely candidate, but it would still be a lot of effort for a small return.

oh, and i also do not have your skills.   

Pretty much for the reasons you already cited...at least that would be my guess.  It is significantly oversize for O gauge and very costly.

I'd rather look at it than have it!

OK...I will come to the defense (somewhat) of the MTH system.  First...Marty's system is fantastic and I admire him for building all of his from scratch!! 

Being less talented, I decided I would try the MTH system.  First of all, in order to make any system look like the prototype, one would have to include the multitude of insulators and wire that is associated with a prototypical system.  If this is your goal, then you will have to build everything pretty much from scratch or assemble the few items that are available commercially. 

I went with the MTH system.  The pictures below show you exactly what it looks like out of the box.  I have added a few details that don't show up well in the pictures but essentially, the system works like a charm.  For those of you that feel it looks a little heavy and / or out of scale....well, that really depends on several factors.  If you look at drawings and pictures of heavy electric catenary, you will find that the height of the MTH poles is not unreasonable and in fact could have been taller.  As far as the dimensions of the cross section of the poles, they are "thicker" than most prototypes I have seen...BUT...not so bad as to not be believable.  From measurements I have taken, they are perhaps somewhat under 6 prototype inches too bulky....that is only and 8th of an inch.  I realize that may be a deal breaker for some of the finer scale modelers but the pictures below better illustrate what to expect.  The base of the poles is the most detracting feature and gives the poles a more toy like look but as Marty said the poles need to be as sturdy as possible and the base is part of that equation.  If you look closely at the picture I took looking down the track near the pole bases, you will see that if one paints those bases a concrete color (which I have not done yet) and install the ballast, the entire bottom mounting plate of the pole will be covered giving the poles a much more scale-like appearance near the base.

The wire used in the MTH system is very much like the Marklin wire and the wire system as a whole is very adjustable for almost any configuration.  One can even model the double pole systems as you see in the pictures.  Painting the poles a dark gray or black could make them appear smaller as darker colors seem to have that ability......  I am pretty happy with the MTH system and for those individuals that are waiting for an off the shelf system that works and looks better for a more reasonable price,  I believe you are going to have many birthdays pass by.....  By the way, you can pick up the MTH system for much less than the above quoted prices....just look and you shall find!!!  P.S.  If you right click a picture and then click on "open link in new window", you will get a full screen shot.

Alan

They have quite a range in HO too, but as you mentioned they're not cheap.

I always had some mixed feelings about a model catenary system. The cables itself will never be realistic I think, for HO they have to be oversized in thickness, and model catenary never looks 'stretched' as in real. At the other hand: Marklin catenary combined with their older diecast engines and tinplate M rails, oversized but solid signals and so on make a nice match, even if the curved sections are far from realistic.

I think we're already familiar with electrics without catenary, as far as 'old timers' like me concern. But at second thoughts, it's a bit funny running a GG1 like a diesel.

I read once Lionel had plans, I wonder how they would have looked like.

Kieffer

"By the way, you can pick up the MTH system for much less than the above quoted prices....just look and you shall find!!!"

really?  where?  i can't find any.

Forrest.....I got most of mine from either the forum or e-bay.  I also searched on the web and found some at 50% off a few years ago.  Honestly, since I bought mine several years ago I haven't done active searches lately so perhaps it is now a little more difficult to find. 

Alan