Non-insulated solid copper bus wire

Cheaper to buy just Romex house wire. I connect with grounding bar extensions showm here

 

http://www.jcstudiosinc.com/Bl...=432&categoryId=

 

Dale H

Not sure what kind of prices you are getting. 1000ft of 12awg bare is aprox 20 lbs or $293.59 from Southwire. At $14.67 per pound, it is about four times the current commodity price which has ranged from $3.25-$4.00 in the last year. You could always try a scrap yard. Or as Dale suggested, get some Romex and pull the ground out of it. That's what I would do. Same manufacturer. 100 ft of 12-2 Romex with bare ground. $50.76 or about $8.44 a pound. Ends up around 50 cents a foot vs 29 cents since you are only using a third of the copper. FMH

Radio Shack sells Bare Cooper Antenna wire. 100 foot coils. I use it as a buss for lights. Forgot gauge (maybe 16) need bigger double it.

You can use all the copper,just use the grounding bars for connections. I use all 3 leads of the 12-2 Romex 2 times around for a 120 amp buss. The buss must carry the potential sum of the amperage produced by all the transformers connected to it. I researched it when I did my layout wiring and the Romex is cheapest by far that I could find compared to rolls of wire.

 

Dale H

 

Bare Copper Wire - All Gauges   with free shipping.

Looking at the chart,about $78 for 250 feet of 12 gauge copper. About the same price as 250 feet 12-2 romex from Lowes which is 1/3 the price.

 

Dale H

Dale, You are correct in that Romex is cheaper. Not sure why. And I have read how you do it. I was just showing the cost if he wanted to use bare wire. Since it is unlikely that he would need 1000 ft, it was still less expensive to buy Romex. And I was assuming that 100ft was enough. 250ft if he needs it is an even better buy. I get my wire for free. So I run 3 wire stranded cable. Every run gets there own ground. Sometimes I use the extra wire for spurs that are switched. I am just old school and while I know it is safe and cheaper, I prefer to follow my UL procedures (my shop has a custom procedure for wiring LEDs, neon, florescent and class 2 low voltage that we follow to maintain our listing) since I do not need to conserve copper. Plus having experienced just about every voltage from 277vac to 30,000vac neon core and coil ( milliamperes of course but still unpleasant), I would rather not contact that buss with it carrying even half of that potential. Fmh

Hi Fred

 

Dont know how big the layout is or the amperage drawn. I purchased 2, 250 foot rolls of 12-2 romex at about $75 per roll last year. When I priced it at Lowes it was the cheapest per foot,cheaper than 12-3 or 10-2 as far as copper per dollar. For less demanding loads, 14-2 is just as economical. I think the reason is they just produce a lot of those 2 runs,since it is the most commonly used for house wiring.I also used some 10-2 that I had left over.

 

Funny thing was too. 250 foot of 12/2 was about $75.  100 foot of 12-2 was almost $50. The 1000 foot roll was actually more money per foot. So these outfits all play games with prices. Checked Home Depot and prices were the same.

 

Fairly easy to strip the individual wires and pull out of the jacket to use individually. Using the grounding bars easy to make connections to. I placed them about every 10 feet around the layout perimeter in a loop. So I have a common return with almost no resistance. Saves a lot of wire. Not recommended for DCS though.

 

Anyway we are looking at a low voltage return system here so I do not see much danger. Everything is properly fused, and the amperage drawn is not much more than an automobile,where the chassis is used for a common ground return. Never heard of anyone getting electrocuted off such a system or touching the car body.

 

Dale H

 

 

Hi Dale, You are right that 12vdc is relatively safe. And usually that low a voltage will not penetrate the skin. And I am sure you know what you are doing. But if someone else accidentally had two transformers out of phase, and a little kid touched an exposed buss with a slightly damp hand or god forbid penetrated the skin on a sharp wire, they could easily be killed by 35-40 VAC. Especially if there was over 10 amps available. Just enough to disrupt a little heart. Maybe just tingle or jolt an adult. I can weld aluminum with 24VAC. Short a 18awg wire in a car and not problem. Attach your three 12Awg wires or a cheap jumper cable to a 12VDc car battery with 500 cold cranking amps and a coat hanger and weld 1/8 steel. Seen it in the Carribean. Do not recommend it but the danger is not always electrocution. I also understand why you do it. And it is a viable method. Just not my preference. FMH

Hi Fred

 

With the fuses and breakers only 10 amps can go through any of my circuits. Out of phase transformers is a different issue and a concern. A more serious issue is paralleling transformers which I do not recommend or do. If one is unplugged the back feed on the exposed prongs can be 110 volts. Arcing is another safety issue regardless if a common ground is used or not.

 

I am a retired pinball machine repairman. Pinball circuits are 28 volts except for Bally which is 56 volts. These are considered safe and I never got a zap off the low voltage end of it in 30 years of doing repairs. The 120 volts is usually encased and labeled. Of course the modern ones have high voltage in the heads which is labeled and isolated. I also repaired amplifiers with metal chassis which provided a common return for circuits both low voltage and up to 600 volts.  I had no real issues touching the metal chassis with the power on,maybe I was just lucky. I guess it is all about what you are used to seeing. Most everything I worked on had a common return.

 

There was a guy on the forum here a while back that used metal framing studs for his layout and used the metal itself as a common return. 

 

Dale H

 

I bought a 100' spool of 10 gauge solid insulated wire from Grainger for $43.00 and used suitcase connectors to connect my leads to it.  Works very well and easy to use.

 

Hi Bob,

A simple core and coil (wire wound around a chunk of metal) tranformer is a pretty simple device. Using a formual to determine how long and how many loops of wire on  each side  and  and volage is transforme (changed)

 

Take a simple doorbell transformer. Put 120VAC on one end and out comes 24VAC on the other.

Put 24VAC on the bell side and you have 120VAC.

 

Depending where in the country, voltage may vary from 110-120 VAC depending on a lot of variables.

 

What i think Dale is impliming is that if you have two  transformers in parellel and one is plugged in and one not, than you can have a very dangerous situation if you touch both lugs on the plug.

And I will use spell check next time.

Hi Bob

 

Fred pretty much explained it. Reading his posts and concerns is food for thought and sure made me think. Not talking of transformers just sharing a common,we are talking 2 transformers in parallel. For example AU and AU of 2 ZWs connected set at 20 volts on the throttles. If one is unplugged the 20 volts from the powered one can travel through the secondary of the unplugged one,where voltage would be stepped up inducting to the primary and 110 volts or whatever would be the potential between the 2 prongs of the plug. In other words the transformer would work in reverse. Ever touched the leads of a plug before inserting it in the wall? Chances are you would not get electrocuted since the shortest path is maybe between your thumb and a finger but still, ouch!  Now if you are touching an outside rail on the track with one hand,maybe a bit sweaty and the hot prong with the other,the path of the current could go through your heart.

 

Low voltage is safer for exposed wiring but still safety considerations should be made. Proper buss size and fusing for example.  Even 18 volts at 10 amps is 180 watts. Even a 100 watt light bulb can produce considerable heat and start a fire if smothered in something combustible.  These electrical devices should be respected. I think that is all we are trying to say. 

 

Dale H

Thanks to both you and Fred.  My "logical" legal mind thinks only that bigger can be reduced to smaller, but smaller cannot be made bigger without some outside material being added.  Now you have explained how 110 volts can be reduced to 18 volts, but can also be elevated again to 110 volts given the material at hand in the transformer(s).

This can happen with any transformer. During power failures people can hook up a generator to there house and not shut off the main breaker in there panel. If you fire up a generator like this you actually power up the whole transmission line to whatever the voltage is. If there is a worker fixing the line you could actually electrocute him down the line. When we lost power several years ago I had my RV generator wired into the house for the 5 days it was out. The linemen would not hook me back up until they pulled the meter even though I told them the main was locked out.

Ron

I remember working many hurricane details in Florida and always felt sorry for the power guys. Their job was more dangerous than the cops. So many people would buy their generators and stick a 220 plug on them and put in in their dryers outlet and never think once about flipping the main panel in the house.

Good point Dale, our home in the county is supplied primarily by a public utility company, after the 2001 power scare,I purchased a natural gas supply 8KW Generac backup generator with a automatic transfer switch. This unit, transfer switch and wire transfers from the main circuit breaker panel to the auxiliary generator circuit panel was installed by a licensed electrical contractor. This eliminated the possibility of backfeeding the public utility power lines from the generator supply. The primary reasons for this insulation was the furnace and well pump. The 8KW generator will power many of the house requirements but not the whole house, a couple of may neighbors have 14KW generators, matter of personal economics.

   

John

Yea John I have the same setup now. When the tornado came through here I wasn't home but my wife was. I got back the next day and hooked up the generator but my wife demanded I buy an automatic one as everything always happens when I'm not home and she wanted no part of a manual switch. I must admit it's a nice outfit but it can't power the train room because it's on a separate meter. 

 

Dale you might be right and I'm sure that everybody that powers up there house with a stand by generator reads the National Electric Code before they hook up there generator. 

 

Larry they don't call those double mail plugs widow makers for nuthin.

 

Ron

Hi Ron

 

The thing is if you hook up a generator in an illegal fashion and something bad happened,your home insurance may not cover you.  Say you feed a 60 amp generator as mentioned into a 220 outlet for a drier. The 10 gauge wire will only carry 30 amps and a fire could result. I guess a 30 amp breaker in the panel might work backwards,I just dont know.You may also be criminally prosecuted if someone got hurt.

 

If fooling with the line,either get a qualified electrician or for DYI have it inspected. This could protect you as well as utility workers.

 

Dale H

You would think so, however, there is no stupidity exclusion in a Homeowners policy.  They would pay.  Once.

Larry they don't call those double mail plugs widow makers for nuthin.

 

Ron

 

Your not kidding there. And add 10 or 15 5 gallon cans of gas sitting all around.

 

 

I am not so sure. I had friends who had problems collecting. Even if some stupid thing a homeowner does is not the cause of an incident they have an excuse not to pay and it may wind up in litigation.Some insurance companies are good and some not so good.

 

Dale H

I agree with you 100% Dale. My point was basically stupid people do stupid things. I don't have to worry my system is code and automatic. 90 seconds and power is back on.

Ron

Ron

 

I have found that even very smart people sometimes do stupid things or have no knowledge subjects outside their field. I purchased my first house from a brilliant Princeton college professor. This guy literally could not use a screw driver,hang a picture, or close and lock a window, or turn on a radiator when the temperature dropped. Not kidding here. I worked at a college moving furniture one summer. I was asked once by a doctoral student why screens were put on windows. Another had no idea how to open a window. I had a neighbor, an MBA for a big Wall street firm, cleaning the carburetor on his car by removing the air cleaner and using a garden hose and Tide.

 

While thinking about it I saw a GE engineer stick his hand in a 4160 volt panel and get blown across the room. He survived but was burnt pretty badly.

 

Dale H

Originally Posted by Dale H:

Oh, there will be problems collecting.  A Cause & Origin investigation will have to be completed internally and by law enforcement, and arson will have to be ruled out, before a payout is made.

 

"Friends" don't usually share the fact that there is an arson investigation underway.

Dale are you from Cleveland?Who did you work for?Good point about the parallel transformer.I have mine that way.Never thought of it

Sorry for back pedaling this far out but I see no reason or benifit of a bare buss wire.Ins.wire versus non ins.has nothing to do with voltage drop.

 

I grew up in Cleveland and moved to NJ in 1966. Now I live in Western Pa near the flight 93 crash site. Had a great science teacher in High School,she got me interested in study of female curvatures.

 

Still a suffering Cleveland Indians and Cleveland Browns fan. Worked as a Power Plant operator at a GM plant among some other jobs. Serviced meters and did electrical instruments and Logic controllers. Had a side business of servicing coin op machines..Retired early in 2000 due to a disability.

 

Dale H

I think the original poster wanted it bare because of easy hookup of the feeder wire,nothing to do with voltage drop.

 

Dale H

Back to the original problem of backfeeding through parallel (non-electronic PW) transformers -

 

If the active one is set at 20V output, and the inactive one is set at 10V, the unconnected power cord will have 240V across the plug's pins!!

Dale M

 

Nice to see you posting again,Missed your expertise here. . Could you explain that a bit more?

 

Dale H

Hay Dale, I missed reading your posts as well.

Dale, the second unpowered transformer is acting as a step-up transformer if it's paralleled with a powered transformer. Since it's set at 10 volts and the other is at 20, the turns ratio of the unpowered transformer results in 240 volts on the primary side plug.

 

Just connect two transformers together and set them to full throttle.  Plug one in, you can light a small 110V light bulb on the power plug of the one that is not plugged in.

Hi Dale, I hadn't thought about that till just now. Good to hear from you. Watts = Volts x Amps. 240Vac at .85 amps is nothing to sneeze at. And at 5volt setting it gets up to around 480v I remember when I was in my twenties. About 25 years ago and I used a buck/boast to run low voltage lighting in a trade show booth. 120 VAC at 10amps gave me 1200 watts potential. When the current on the low voltage side (12volts) started melting 220v 30 amp twist lock plugs, I realized that there was more to know before I tried that again. Once I distributed the loads and dumped the common ground my life got a little easier. Only use commons now when I am short on commutator space on rotating signs. And only balanced loads. Essentially a 220 two phase circuit with two 120 legs and common. FMH

On a side note, balancing loads actually can save you money. If you put two 120 Vac 10amp air conditioners on opposites sides of your panel, the demand is only around an amp as compared to 20 amps if they are on the same leg. FMH

Uhh... not true!  If they're 10A a/c units, they'll use the same power, and you'll pay for it.  The benefit is you should normally try to reasonably balance the loads on either side of the 220 feed.

Here's one of many references to that very condition.

I assume you are referring to (in the US) standard 120V/240V single-phase service?  The answer is that unbalanced power (more current on one of the hot wires than the other, with resulting neutral current) is a valid condition. Metering for this type of service is designed to measure unbalanced current correctly.
Which is a good thing, since just about any home with a toaster or iron plugged in has an unbalanced load to some extent!

An example shows how easy this is:

We have a 2400W, 240V air conditioner, and a 120W, 120V lamp on the same service. We would expect the meter to measure and bill us for a 2520W demand, right? (2400 + 120 = 2520, or 2.52 kWh per hour)

The A/C draws 10A (2400/240=10, ignoring power factor to make the math easier).
The lamp draws 1A (120/120=1).
So, the meter sees 11A on the black wire, and 10A on the red. We are unbalanced.
The meter calculates (or measures mechanically):
11A * 120V = 1320W
10A * 120V = 1200W
1320W + 1200W = 2520W

Although there is one amp of neutral current flowing, it doesn't affect our calculations, since the same amp of current is also flowing (and counted) in the black wire. The same principle applies whether we are metering VA or true power (watts).

And yet another reference.

FOR THE RECORD: the devices on homes and businesses are watt-hour meters. That means they measure the actual watts of power consumed whether the loads are balanced or not. They DO NOT have induction motors -- they have synchronous motors and turn the wheel we've all seen. The shaft that turns that wheel also drives a small gear network that drives the shafts of each of the small gauge needles that display total killowatt hours (kWh) consumed and that the meter reader reads each month..

In many utility districts across the country (and the world, now), the older meters we all knew have been replaced with digital meters -- in time, they will all be replaced. These, too, measure the actual watt-hours consumed regardless of balanced or non-balanced loads. The future, whether we like it or not, will be for utilities to move to time-of-day rates. That means that when electric loads are higher during a hot summer day due to higher A/C loads and higher cost generation assets are being brought on line, that we will be paying more per kWh. Power will be cheaper in the evenings and weekends when loads are less because many businesses are not producing and cooling offices.