NYC Subway - Lexington Ave Line 14th Street Moving Platform

I see how people obeyed the warning.  The one kid with the backpack was standing on it when the train stopped.

George

60MPH doesn't happen anywhere in the NYC subway system. It only looks like that on the Lexington Ave express because the tunnels are so tight. Top speeds on that line flirt with but don't quite reach 50. I've seen R32 cars reach 56 going downhill in the river tunnel on the N/R/W from 59th street to Queens Plaza.

---PCJ

Even on the D train dash from 59th to 125th street during non rush likely don't get much north of 45-50 (based strictly on my impression, no inside knowledge). I remember reading that the modern equipment could theoretically go faster than 60mph, but  I doubt they ever in normal service get near that, for a number of reasons (actually interesting question, maybe  one of those with knowledge know, do they have any kind of governor on subway cars to keep them from going above a certain speed? Not talking the track tripper system/speed control, I mean the top end, like they have on many cars to keep them within the speed rating of the tires. 

There are governors on all the equipment  The R46 did 65 on the flats to Rockaway when they were doing trial testing  That never happens anymore because of the governors.   The absolute fastest I have gone is in the river tubes  Its there that the downhills propel you Top speed was 56 in an R160.  The R68's do about 53-55 in the river tubes otherwise they feel like you have to get out and push them..  The R46 on the flats to Rockaway now will do about 52   The D train southbound from 34 to west 4th reaches 52 only because its a downgrade.  The R32's may feel like they are doing 56 but there is no way it does that  If it did it would sound like its falling apart

George S posted:

I see how people obeyed the warning.  The one kid with the backpack was standing on it when the train stopped.

George

Welcome to NYC! i think they design them with these people in mind! LOL!

RailRide posted:

60MPH doesn't happen anywhere in the NYC subway system. It only looks like that on the Lexington Ave express because the tunnels are so tight. Top speeds on that line flirt with but don't quite reach 50. I've seen R32 cars reach 56 going downhill in the river tunnel on the N/R/W from 59th street to Queens Plaza.

---PCJ

My wife and I traveled this train a million times when we worked in Manhattan. Everyone called this train "The Bullet". At times it seemed like it was doing 100 and would fall apart at any second! There were times I literally was becoming concerned! LOL!

Fyi

bluelinec4 posted:

Fyi

Neat picture, though they didn't do that speed on that part of the line, that's for sure! (that is the rockaway line, no? Looks like the broad channel draw bridge).  Were those the infamous units that used to catch fire (the R44) or was that the R46?

As a child in NYC I saw these moving platforms on the IRT at the south ferry/ battery park station. The subway cars would be on this sharp curve and leaning to the inside. There was a lot of squealing and resistance  noise. Memorably exciting as the trains would make the great turn to go back uptown.

  I once water skied under that A train.

bluelinec4 posted:

Fyi

Between Woodside and Jamaica would seem like a good straight line for high speed testing, but it's not a subway line.  Are LIRR and BMT/IND third rail systems compatible ?  If they are it would make sense to do speed tests on the six track LIRR line where you don't have to worry about the speed limitations inherent in the subway signal system.  That photo of course could have nothing to do with the high speed test.  It's just  another train on the Rockaway line (formerly LIRR until 1950, reopened as subway in 1956).

bluelinec4 posted:

Fyi

Thanks!

This was posted by the transit museum.  Yes that is the broad channel bridge.  Yes this isn’t where the test was done they are just showing you an r44.  Yes the r44 was junk but they still run on Staten Island.  Yes broad channel bridge is not the Long Island railroad anymore.  Yes the third rails are compatible

bluelinec4 posted:

Fyi

LIRR Trains have a top speed of 70MPH. This I KNOW because a friend is a big shot there!

fisherdoc posted:

The 14th street station is located on a curve so there is a specially made moving platform to close the gap between the train and the station platform. As the train leaves, it retracts. This system has been used for DECADES in our system! I made this film clip yesterday during my trip to Manhattan for an appointment. 

This moving platform has probably been there for at least 60-70 years. I remember it from the late '60's and it was old then. Works great, however.

Necessitated as this is a rare curved station platform. Very neat. I wonder if anyone modeled it?

fisherdoc posted:

The Lexington Ave line of the NYC Subway is called "The Bullet" by riders who know this route! The #4 and 5 trains easily do 60+ MPH heading up (or down) the express track.

The 14th street station is located on a curve so there is a specially made moving platform to close the gap between the train and the station platform. As the train leaves, it retracts. This system has been used for DECADES in our system! I made this film clip yesterday during my trip to Manhattan for an appointment. 

The #1 train at South Ferry station has an even more dramatic curve since the train has to make a full 360 degree turnaround loop.  IT also has a retracting platform that is right in the middle of the curve.

RailRide posted:

60MPH doesn't happen anywhere in the NYC subway system. It only looks like that on the Lexington Ave express because the tunnels are so tight. Top speeds on that line flirt with but don't quite reach 50. I've seen R32 cars reach 56 going downhill in the river tunnel on the N/R/W from 59th street to Queens Plaza.

---PCJ

From an engineering economics point of view, speeds over 45 would be very undesirable in the New York subways.

The most obvious is energy requirement.  Rolling resistance increases linearly with speed.  Wind resistance increase as the square of the speed.  A railroad passenger train at 80 mph is using half of its fuel to overcome wind resistance.  That computes to 20% at 40 mph.  so when you increase the speed of a subway car from 40 to 50 you're using at least 11% more energy.  But the ratio is worse in the subway because of the flat front.

Even the longest IRT express run is 1.5 miles, so your not going to gain much time with trains faster than 40-45.  It would also take a tremendous amount of energy to accelerate fast enough to be doing 60 mph for the short time between stations. 

And there there is signal system cost.  I don't know if it is tecnically feasible to design a signal system for two minute headways at 60 mph with maximum station spacing of 1.5 miles and safe stopping distances, but I'm sure it would be difficult and very expensive.

Looking at the map, it looks to me like the longest IND express runs are on the E, f and R trains in Queens.  IT would be interesting to know the design speed of the signal systems out there.

According to sources that I've seen over the years, I've always known the maximum service speed of the subways as 55 mph, which seems to be an industry standard.  When you think of it, a transit train makes many frequent stops and is going to waste too much energy and wear and tear on the equipment ratcheting the speed up to 55 only to have to begin braking for the next upcoming station.  Here in Miami, the Metrorail tops out at 55 mph between stations that are further apart and runs more like 40-45 mph between stations that are closer (this is observed by using the GPS speedometer on my cell phone while riding as a passenger, plus the 30+ years of driving alongside the trains on the elevated tracks).  It may not sound like a lot, but 55 mph is more than fast enough, and looks/feels fast enough when you're observing a train pass by overhead or on the train looking out the window.

According to Wikipedia, the maximum service speed for NYC Subway trains is 55 mph and for M7 Commuter Cars 80 mph (Design 100 mph) , NJ Transit Bi-Levels (100 mph).

Here is a 1955 R-21 Subway Car Instruction Manual https://s3.amazonaws.com/nycsu...ges/cars/r21inst.pdf that's on www.nycsubway.org . Page 20/22 shows the maximum speed as 55 mph.

mlaughlinnyc posted:

RailRide posted:

60MPH doesn't happen anywhere in the NYC subway system. It only looks like that on the Lexington Ave express because the tunnels are so tight. Top speeds on that line flirt with but don't quite reach 50. I've seen R32 cars reach 56 going downhill in the river tunnel on the N/R/W from 59th street to Queens Plaza.

---PCJ

From an engineering economics point of view, speeds over 45 would be very undesirable in the New York subways.

The most obvious is energy requirement.  Rolling resistance increases linearly with speed.  Wind resistance increase as the square of the speed.  A railroad passenger train at 80 mph is using half of its fuel to overcome wind resistance.  That computes to 20% at 40 mph.  so when you increase the speed of a subway car from 40 to 50 you're using at least 11% more energy.  But the ratio is worse in the subway because of the flat front.

Even the longest IRT express run is 1.5 miles, so your not going to gain much time with trains faster than 40-45.  It would also take a tremendous amount of energy to accelerate fast enough to be doing 60 mph for the short time between stations. 

And there there is signal system cost.  I don't know if it is tecnically feasible to design a signal system for two minute headways at 60 mph with maximum station spacing of 1.5 miles and safe stopping distances, but I'm sure it would be difficult and very expensive.

Looking at the map, it looks to me like the longest IND express runs are on the E, f and R trains in Queens.  IT would be interesting to know the design speed of the signal systems out there.

I just the other day brought this topic up with a friend who is a senior manager with the LIRR who is in charge of their yards. The LIRR trains move at 80MPH on open straight track and this includes the run to Penn Station from Jamaica as well as many other places. Subway trains he said do around 55 +/- depending where they are.

He must have meant between Jamaica and Harold, not through the tunnels.

Guys  I operate subway trains!!  I do it evreyday!!   The only place one goes 55 is in the 60 street tube on the R W and N  and that because of the downgrade  anybody says that they go faster than that doesnt know what they are talking about

Another curved station is the original City Hall station, but I don't recall ever seeing a picture of a moving platform there, so I'm going to speculate that one was not needed because the original cars only had doors at the ends and not in the middle of the car.

@Gary Liebisch posted:

The #1 train at South Ferry station has an even more dramatic curve since the train has to make a full 360 degree turnaround loop.  IT also has a retracting platform that is right in the middle of the curve.

"full 360 degree"  That does not make sense, the train would be heading in the same direction leaving the the loop as it was when entering the loop.

@PRRMP54 posted:

"full 360 degree"  That does not make sense, the train would be heading in the same direction leaving the the loop as it was when entering the loop.

It's more like 270 deg. followed by 90 deg. in the other direction.  Only 180 would not be enough unless the spacing of the connecting double track was the diameter of the loop.

When I was first riding the subway, there was a double loop at south Ferry.  The other track was used by the Bowling green shuttle.

City Hall Station has been closed for many years. It is too close to City Hall and they fear terrorism. On another note, I passed through it about 3 months ago on my way home (to Staten Island) forgetting that the #6 train technically ends at Brooklyn Bridge Station and I stayed on the train which went around the loop and passes City Hall Station to head back uptown. It is nothing more than that - a loop. 

This station was designed when train cars were a LOT smaller and the curve wasn't an issue. As someone mentioned the doors may have been on the ends or maybe even a conductor was there with a manual platform of some kind. Whatever it was it was and it ain't been used in years and it ain't gonna be - possibly ever!

Closing of the City Hall station in 1945 had nothing to do with terrorism.  It was closed when they were lengthening platforms and trains, and not many riders were using it.  See https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/city-hall-station

@mlaughlinnyc posted:

Closing of the City Hall station in 1945 had nothing to do with terrorism.  It was closed when they were lengthening platforms and trains, and not many riders were using it.  See https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/city-hall-station

It's a beautiful station and a bit of preserved history. Next time I ride the #6 downtown, I'll have to take the loop.

I never said that's WHY it was closed - I said that is WHY it will never open.