O scale brass project question...

A vote for Mather box and stock cars. And a combination Lionel intercontinental rocket and circus lion car. Ok, just kidding on the second item.

Mark, please add your potential purchase quantity.

thx

Brad: 1 Box. 2 stock. These numbers are for brass, ala Rich Yoder. Maybe a couple more stock, if done in styrene (ala Atlas). 

Brad,

A couple of problems with your brass production thought and price range of $350-400. The first two are rumored to be possible new resin kits within the next year or two. Which could still put them ahead of most brass production and at about a third the price. 

The third item is way to broad a subject. There are tons of single sheathed prototypes out there to be done. We have enough generic models already being produced.

These are just my opinions, but that was what you asked for.

George,

Thank you for your thoughts; in regards to many resin kits ie Rails Unlimited: once you add trucks, parts, decals, time of assembly etc they often finished priced much like a brass model...  

   Irrespective of this, I would expect there to be good support for painted brass models that are accurate and have high quality trucks.    On the SS outside braced: you are absolutely right.   Many builders made these cars, the second question is whose to model.    Perhaps you can add some thoughts there.

What about a Southern SU truss rod box car?

My vote is for a Mather car.  Totally lacking in O scale. 

Am I mistaken or doesn't Rails Unlimited already offer a 1932 ARA boxcar kit in resin?

I purchased one from Ted at the 2012 O National.

Chris and Rob,

Thanks for the replies--how about an image of the Southern truss rod car?

Brad,

Chris is right, Rails Unlimited already has the NKP/C&O version of the 32 ARA Boxcars and has announced the Seaboard version of the 32 ARA boxcar their class B-6 boxcar. Lee Turner did a nice job on the patterns for those models.

There is talk of another manufacturer producing a different version of the 32 ARA Boxcar also. Plus these cars were imported by Pacific Limited.

Or if your really on a tight budget the Weaver/Crown boxcar is close.

I also have to agree with Dave, I don't think of my time to build the kits as that is one of the things I enjoy about the hobby. I'd actually prefer not to just open the box and place the car on the layout, but that is another topic.

As for what single sheathed cars to think of doing, most manufacturers want a car that either was produced in large quantities for one road or is similar cars with small changes for multiple roads. There are a number to be done.

Now that Speedwitch Media is back, I'd recommend reading at Richard Hendrickson's Focus on Freight Cars Volume One: Single sheathed Box and Automobile Cars. There is plenty of information to get you started in there.

George

Hi George,

I have both Speedwitch books and will review them again.    I can understand Dave's comment to not count time; but if you consider having a master like Lee Turner finish the car--voila a brass price!    Now I am not knocking Lee's work---just illustrating that the cost is similar.    I still contend that fine brass models will be well received--the question is how many others feel this way.    

On another topic---if George Koh's launches his reefer project with real wood siding---that will be a great measure of customer interest in high end rolling stock.   

The PL brass cars (at least the Seaboard version with the flat ends) isn't really that good of a rendition.

The details are fantastic but Pat got cheated by WBM on the overall carbody.

The carbody and ends are one flat sheet with no relief for overlapping sheets.  It's nothing more than a flat sheet with rivets and scribe lines where there should be overlapping sheets or crimp seams.

Sad, because it seems that nobody will do a decent version of this popular car and I prefer brass to kits. 

Rob

ouch....    I am a fan of PL and RY (as you know)....

The challenge for any potential brass importer is bringing in a model with enough geographic depth (ie roads) and also producing something that interests and excites the audience (mather cars anyone???).     However, there is always safety in "blue chips"...    In this case models anyone can use: single/double sheathed boxcars and or 1932 boxcars.     Again, as to my original post---who wants what and how many?

Me-- 10 to 15 ara cars properly painted and decaled and 20-25 single sheathed outside braced models would be well---swell!     Mather-- a few of each: box and stock.

Rob,

I would disagree with your point that O scale folks are not as "choosy" as our HO brothers. We just might not post about it here, but that does not mean that there is not talk.

Sorry to hear about how bad the PL Southern 32 ARA model is. It seems to sell well every time one shows up at a show or online.

We have enough PRR models on the market to populate three more generations of modelers. Let see if we can think of other prototypes for a change.

Brad,

What time frame are you modeling that you would need 12-15 32 ARA boxcars? Did your homeroad have these cars on their roster in your modeling period?

Most of the talk in the smaller scales about proportioned freight car fleets talk about the free roaming cars being proportional to the actual fleets of cars the railroad rostered. With the exception of home road cars and taking into account interchange traffic.

In 1952 (my modeling era) the 1932 ARA cars numbered just under 12K cars total. Which works out to about 4% of the overall free roaming boxcar fleet at the time. Whereas, the 1937 AAR boxcar (Intermountain boxcar) totaled over 60K cars or 21% of the fleet.

To keep things in a proportion, 12-15 1932 cars would need an overall boxcar fleet of closer to 400 boxcars. The actual percentage of boxcars in the overall freight car fleet roughly 39%. So to make it balanced closer to the actual numbers of cars, you would need a total freight model fleet of close to 1000 cars to need 12-15 1932 ARA cars.

I found that the numbers said to me that I only needed one 1932 ARA boxcar for my modeling period of 1952. But since I have the recent Rails Unlimited car and the earlier Lee Turner kit for the Seaboard car, I'll have two. No need for more brass.

George 

Rob,

Sometimes we forget two things about the Pacific limited cars. While they still rank as some of the best cars produced, they were built a while ago and manufacturing quality has improved some. Also the knowledge of the prototype cars has improved some over that same period.

All manufacturers are not driven by the same goals. There are some that put making the best car they can at that point in time as the goal and there are others that just want to sell out their runs. As I said my opinion is that the Pacific Limited cars are still some of the best ever produced in O scale.

Lee does nice pattern work if you haven't picked up one of Ted's cars you're missing out on a beautiful car. But we have had a lot of great pattern work done over the years by Gene Diemling, Jim Zwernemann, and a some others that escape my mind this morning. We may not have as many resin kits as some of the smaller scales but we have some wonderful cars in O scale because of those kits.

Dave,

F&C has been promising to make new O scale kits for the last 10-15 years. He promised to do the PRR GRa gondola ten years before Ted produced his kit. I'm sure he would like to but his HO business has kept him too busy to do it for a long time now. I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for him to make another O scale kit.

That is a nice looking car though and still on the roster in my modeling period.

George

Just my opinion, but I really do like the OCCASIONAL highly detailed brass freight cars & cabooses, such as the recent second run of Rich Yoder's special AT&SF "panel side" boxcar.

That said, when I started accumulating reefers for a 24 to 30 car PFE train, I sure has heck wasn't going to spend upwards of $400 PER CAR! I went with the "plastic" Red Caboose and Intermountain products. After they are all weathered, and from 2 to 3 feet away, they look outstanding behind a UP FEF-3 or an SP GS-4. I applied the same philosophy to 65 2-Bay coal hoppers for a C&O coal train, 36 2-bay hoppers for a Western Maryland coal train, and dozens upon dozens of boxcars for a standard manifest freight train.

Naturally I also enjoy mixing some of the super detailed pieces into a train and see if anyone notices THEM.

I'd buy 5 of these rebuilds and 1 of a regular boxcar. I was pretty bummed when the PAC Limited version of this project was wrecked.

Looking at Paul Faulk's SAL Color Guide To Freight and Passenger Equipment, the SAL (class B6) ARA 1932 that Rails Unlimited shows on their site doesn't match.  In the book the inside height is 8'-9" while RU says their model is 9'-4".  Not sure which one is the typo.

I have an Atlas model of the B6, #17334.  Seaboard had 2700 of this class.

If someone wants to make a sorely needed Seaboard car, make one of their Turtleback (round roof) cars, either single or double door (or both).  They've been made in S scale, but nothing comes close in O.

Bob,

My Jan 1952 ORER lists the Seaboard B-6 class with a 9'4" IH.

The Seaboard class B-3 were 8'6 IH, B-4 were 8'7"IH and B-5 were 8'7" IH.

If that color guide was published by Morning Sun, then enjoy the photos but don't think the captions are correct. I know one former author for them that stopped writing for them because he proofed what was typeset but they wouldn't make the corrections. That would have eaten into the profits for the book. 

I think the B-7 round roof car would be a very nice choice of a car to build.

George Losse

Thanks George!  I've found a couple of mistakes in the "Morning Sun" book before.  I was going to look up some data on the ARA 1932 cars, but I'll take what you say as fact.

I need to look at the Atlas car to see if they have the correct data on the car as well.

I read somewhere that the B-7 car body is very close to a PS1 car, just needs a different roof.  If that's the case (I can see another project if so) that would be great.  I'll investigate that too.

Bob,

The IH of a PS-1 is 10'6" while the IH of the B-7 round roof car is only 10'0"

That would not be the best choice to start from.

The '37 AAR (Intermountain boxcar) has the same IH. But the roof line comes down some on the side of the car on the B-7. So its not the best choice either. 

The car side of the B-7 is actually very close in height to the 32 ARA car. I've been looking at using the 32 AAR car side and making new ends and a roof for the car. I picked up one of Ted flat kits for the C&O radial roof 32 ARA I was going to use the sides as my starting point. I'll use it's underbody and sides combined with new ends and a roof.

The Atlas car is an PRR X29 painted to look like the Seaboard 32 ARA cars. They both have flat ends and a flat roof but that is all they really have in common.

The car sides are very different in their construction. The X29 design uses a solid side sill (it's a channel facing inwards ) it's visibly straight along it bottom edge. The B-6 32 ARA cars use the 32 standard design which uses the car side as a part of the structure and the tab on the bottom of the side tie into the underframe. 

The vertical members inside the walls are a U shaped pressing which explains the double row of rivets at each of the side panels. The 32 ARA cars used Z shapes and have one row of rivets.

The Atlas X29 has the lower Inside Height of the B-4's and B-5's and might be a better choice for those cars that were rebuilt with steel sides.

Also the underframes are very different. The X29 uses a 5'0" distance from striker plate to bolster center and the 32 ARA use a 5' 6" distance. I know who cares about 6 inches except proto48'ers. But that is why the X29 wheels sit almost even with their ends of the car and later boxcars they sit further under the cars. And the wheels sitting at the ends of the cars are one of the distinctive traits of the X29's.

Sometimes little details make a big difference.

George Losse

Wow! this is pretty sincere on the details. 

I spoke to someone today who asked me why I posted photos of the stock cars. These are rebuilds of the outside braced cars on the N&W. I think there were other railroads who did the same thing, so it expands the use of this car. Pac Limited was going to do this car and the project was sunk. I'd buy some of the outside braced boxcars if they were made. I'd really want the stock car versions. 

Christopher NW,

Would you email me offline; contact in profile---thanks!

BTW, I enjoyed the youtube of your layout.

Cris,

There is more information on your N&W Stock cars on the Steam Era Freight Cars Site. They were rebuilds from the post-USRA door and a half boxcars. There are other roads that also had the USRA clone door and a half boxcars.

The NYC had a series of stock cars that were rebuilt from single door USRA Single Sheathed boxcars. The NYC cars differ from the N&W car by having the three piece 5-5-5 Murphy end of the USRA cars, the N&W USRA clones have the two piece 7-8 Murphy ends.

There are differences in the side bracing between the two cars also because the NYC cars started out as the single door cars and the N&W's were door and a half. But they are in the same family.

George Losse

Brad,

Thanks, will do.

George,

Thanks for the link and the information.

I know there are lots of us O scalers that care George... but it seems that there are still a lot of "all boxcars are the same" crowd in our scale.  Again this is just my opinion

I don't know about a lot, but I rather suspect folks who are unhappy with the number of $300 boxcars that are currently available are a very select group.  I am in the group that happily runs Scale Craft box cars alongside PSC cars, and favors the former.

I doubt it is "a lot" and that many are quite knowledgeable reagarding protypical distinctions.  I suspect it is more that the numbers of folks that can and/or are willing to afford or buy numbers of $300 (or greater) freightcars may be in the minority.

yes, us brass buyers are in the minority; however generally speaking we are after specific roads, car types and want accuracy.     Also in a world of escalating plastic pricing I feel better buying brass for $200-250 than a plastic model at $80 or so (that usually is not accurate).   Others buy just for the artistry as well.

I'm sure that folks that buy $300 freight cars are in the minority since 300 bucks isn't chump change. 

 

But the topic of the thread is about folks who buy $300 freight cars.

 

For them, fidelity and accuracy is a big deal... especially at 300 smackeroos a clip.  

 

Thus the whole point of the thread -  so what's the ones that buyers of brass cars (or small loco projects or rail car projects) want? 

 

Originally Posted by mwb:

Originally Posted by bob2:

I know there are lots of us O scalers that care George... but it seems that there are still a lot of "all boxcars are the same" crowd in our scale.  Again this is just my opinion

 

I don't know about a lot, but I rather suspect folks who are unhappy with the number of $300 boxcars that are currently available are a very select group.  I am in the group that happily runs Scale Craft box cars alongside PSC cars, and favors the former.

I doubt it is "a lot" and that many are quite knowledgeable reagarding protypical distinctions.  I suspect it is more that the numbers of folks that can and/or are willing to afford or buy numbers of $300 (or greater) freightcars may be in the minority.

 

I'm aware of the topic, but there are factors that influence just how much and what get imported and one is the number of folks willing the pay the price.

And, I've got several $300+ brass cars, but only once have I had to pay anywhere near that price for them,

I have three brass freight cars that are easily worth $800 each, and a full set of Lionel 700-series cars that can occasionally change hands for multiple thousands.

My only reason for responding was to let you know that at least one 2- railer is happy with the old stuff, and will not be buying $300 freight cars.  Somebody else brought it up.

I think it is great that definitive models will continue to be produced in brass - my hat is off to you.  Just be careful not to bring in your favorite car and expect 300 others to want it - case in point was the fire train.