i heard the news about the last catalog and there's stuff in there i want like the UP and C&O 400E but that aint gonna happen
but my question is is MTH still going to produce tinplate like before the agreement or is tinplate over
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No one can say for certain but they are probably not done producing tinplate. They will simply go back to "Tinplate Traditions" line. Their agreement with Lionel is coming to an end.
My personal opinion is yes, they are done and out.
I hope not. I have thought about getting some tinplate.
I wouldn’t panic. Production will probably slow or stop for a bit but I wouldn’t say the sky is falling. There is still plenty of tinplate out there now and i’m Sure we’ll see more in the future.
I've been buying many prewar 600 series freight cars during my recent trip to Ohio last week.
When I saw this latest catalog come out, I decided after much pondering to order this 263E.
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With a logo sporting a smokin' Blue Comet 400E, do you really think MTH is "done" with tinplate trains?
Who knows, just remember the best time to buy something is when you see it, production may not last forever. Classic car parts are the same way, they may do one run and never again, small market for this stuff.
paigetrain posted:but my question is is MTH still going to produce tinplate like before the agreement or is tinplate over
Yes, in my opinion MTH is done with tinplate at this time. You have no idea the effort Mike Wolf had to go to just to be able to honor the orders in the last catalog. Chinese manufacturers have found electronics much more profitable. It is now difficult to find companies willing to make the products, since the demand is so much higher for the other products. Do you think any of these companies are willing to do limited runs of tinplate trains? Sorry guys, the manufacturers aren't interested. Should the business be moved to another country. Yes! However there are very high fees for moving the tooling to other countries. We are talking about 50% of the tooling's value in taxes. If you get it moved; then what do you do? Your in a country without any experience in producing trains. It will take 5 years to get things up and going again at the same knowledge and quality level.
Want to know where the cheap labor is, follow the shoe business. The cheap manufacturing place of choice is Vietnam. That presents two issues. Vietnamese have a distrust of Americans and American manufacturers. That goes both ways if you think some of us have issues with Chinese goods, that would be even worse with Vietnamese goods.Scott Smith
Scott
I tend to agree. I think tinplate, at least for the near future, is probably done. Unfortunate because MTH has done a wonderful job with the line.
I think a lot of us on the outside may not realize how low the volune really was with the tinplate. We see the catalogs and assume it sells hand over fist but that’s not reality. There was a lot of product variety but volume of the individual items was likely small with a few exceptions. In a way we’e lucky we got as much as we did.
thank god... in the 1920's the 400E may have been state of the art, but it is one of the most ridiculous wheel arrangement in locomotive history. add to that it's long past due to put a halt to all the idiotic liveries it has been forced to wear. i can't help but relate what this locomotive has gone through to that poor dog you always see around the holidays dressed in a sweater to match their owner.
Hey Overlandflyer...have a Snickers. Your not yourself when you're hungry. LOL!
Dennis Holler posted:I think a lot of us on the outside may not realize how low the volune really was with the tinplate. We see the catalogs and assume it sells hand over fist but that’s not reality. There was a lot of product variety but volume of the individual items was likely small with a few exceptions. In a way we’e lucky we got as much as we did.
You are absolutely 100% correct.
Stu
Dennis Holler posted:I think a lot of us on the outside may not realize how low the volune really was with the tinplate. We see the catalogs and assume it sells hand over fist but that’s not reality. There was a lot of product variety but volume of the individual items was likely small with a few exceptions. In a way we’e lucky we got as much as we did.
Lucky indeed! People have been spoiled by the wealth of tinplate product produced by MTH in recent times, and it was inevitable that this would come to a halt at some point, for whatever reason(s). It has been a fun ride, and I'm sure glad I got and now have the items I really wanted the most.
I'm sure someone will ask MTH reps or Mike at York in a few weeks. My guess is it will end up being a few small runs of special tinplate traditions items like the old days in the late 90's early 2000's. No more dedicated catalog...
George
I will always cherish my Lionel Classics dark gray 2-400E with the "surprise" whistle, courtesy of MTH!
George S posted:I'm sure someone will ask MTH reps or Mike at York in a few weeks. My guess is it will end up being a few small runs of special tinplate traditions items like the old days in the late 90's early 2000's. No more dedicated catalog...
George
I will be happy to ask them, but I certainly don't expect them to make a commitment to anything one way or the other. They are a business, and businesses generally prefer to keep their future plans pretty much to themselves. Perfectly understandable.
There's still a whole lot of Tinplate Traditions and Lionel Corporation Tinplate product out there and readily available in the marketplace today, and those who really enjoy those lines probably would be well-advised to take advantage of what they can get now.
The Lionel badge is always nice on the repos, but not necessary for me. I have been a fan of Tinplate Traditions for decades. One exception: I have an LCT 216 red hopper with large L I O N E L letters stamped on the sides INSTEAD of the usual oval brass plates! (??) Kind of cheapens the look! If you are going to have the badging, do it RIGHT! 😐
overlandflyer posted:thank god... in the 1920's the 400E may have been state of the art, but it is one of the most ridiculous wheel arrangement in locomotive history. add to that it's long past due to put a halt to all the idiotic liveries it has been forced to wear. i can't help but relate what this locomotive has gone through to that poor dog you always see around the holidays dressed in a sweater to match their owner.
What's wrong with the 4-4-4 wheel arrangement?
I've never understood the hate for the MTH paint schemes, sure I like my black 400e, but nobody is forcing me to buy a purple one.
scott.smith posted:.... Chinese manufacturers have found electronics much more profitable. It is now difficult to find companies willing to make the products, since the demand is so much higher for the other products. Do you think any of these companies are willing to do limited runs of tinplate trains? Sorry guys, the manufacturers aren't interested. ...Scott Smith
If that's true, then most train production is doomed (tinplate or otherwise), as it's all a relatively small market. And China produces a lot of stuff for export besides electronics - other manufacturers will step in. Now, whether or not the market can support a sufficient volume of tinplate items is a different question.
I'm beginning to suspect that the sticking point may have been that Lionel wanted a certain minimum dollar amount that projected sales couldn't support.
And then there's the issue of tariffs - a double-digit increase in the already high prices of these luxury items might provide enough incentive to move production elsewhere.
I don't really have a dog in this hunt but it seems to me the best solution is to find a way to bring the tooling home.
overlandflyer posted:thank god... in the 1920's the 400E may have been state of the art, but it is one of the most ridiculous wheel arrangement in locomotive history. add to that it's long past due to put a halt to all the idiotic liveries it has been forced to wear. i can't help but relate what this locomotive has gone through to that poor dog you always see around the holidays dressed in a sweater to match their owner.
-1
I have a Tinplate Traditions Christmas set I purchased 10 years ago, and a few cars available when you joined the club, that was enough to satisfy my needs. Beautiful product, just dont run them enough. Always wanted another O Gauge engine, but I didn't see any 6 wheel drive steam engines
I have some what wondered about the tooling needs and investment just to produce one freight car.
Traditionally all parts were stamped out and then sent through a series of dies to achieve the desired shape. Then sub-assembly, which may require jigs for consistency. Then paint, then final assembly, then packaging.
Most of this is still true, however some metal working process available now that didn't exist in the 30's and 40's, such as water jet cutting and plasma cutting. For a small runs of say a couple hundred pieces, it is much more economical now to have the sheet stock shapes cut on a what jet table than to stamp out flat blanks. This section requires programming but no actual tooling costs. Even the little 1/16" by 1/8" slots to receive tabs can be made this way.
Unfortunately, there is no good way to make complex shapes without stamping. There are extruding machines that can make some simple or complex bends, but it you want rivet details or the corrugated ends on a box car, you need to strike the steel. This means you still need something to hit with and something to be the negative form of the shape to accept that hit. Tooling quality and cost can vary but it add up fast. It you are only making four pieces you can probably make your own tooling out of hardwood, but steel is need for volume parts and repeatably. All this steel, and the design time, and the programming time, and labor for material sourcing and paint and polish and assembly, and engineering for packaging, and labeling and shipping adds up until it's amazing that we can buy things for reasonable prices.
I think Mike Wolf will bring back tinplate when current inventories dwindle. Where and how it is made should be fun to watch. Also I am sure tariff's may play a small role in the decisions making process. (Just pointing things out - please don't go political in response to this observation.)
Tinplate goes to the heart of toy trains being toys. They represent kids playing with trains and using their own wonder and imagination. They are sort of a romanticized take on what toy trains can be, with some details very important and others not so much. To that end I have only recently gotten into tinplate and absolutely love it, though of course I could use some new designs to pick from. The electric locomotive largely don't resemble anything I recognize so the appeal isn't there. The steam engines are beautiful, I have two mth ps-3 tinplate steamers, but yes, a different wheel arrangement would be great. I am hoping that the next round of tinplate offerings proves to have new offerings to excite both old an new fans of the genre. I can see tinplate versions of modern tanks cars, without an under frame. A covered hopper in o gauge shouldn't be that much of stretch as long as you don't go crazy with hatches. a generic boxcar that's a little longer and a little boxier might have some appeal as well.
A stamped steel diesel switcher locomotive doesn't seem out of realm of possible when using protocoupler box couplers. The boys of the 30's and 40's never saw that as a realistic possibility. You could take the standard existing can motor truck design and hang some form of tinpate-esque truck side on it instead of the cast diesel trucks, or maybe even use the existing truck designs just painted silver. I don't see a market for large modern diesels, but surely F units like the old Marx offerings would work. I have a lithographed Marx shell in my project pile waiting to become an PS-2 unit whenever I get back around to doing projects again. Not sure what style coupler it will receive.
Even using the existing 4-4-2 wheel arrangement and cranking out a camel back style body for it would be fantastic.
Sorry for the long post - sometimes thoughts just keep coming.
JHZ563
I posted this elsewhere no too long ago, how nice it would be to have a choice of small diesel switchers in standard gauge ? A 44 tonner, or a GP7 or 9 ? I see plenty of electrics and steamers out there, all good but seeing a diesel would be a fresh new start . Building my own is now becoming more of a reality . Maybe this winter I will build a prototype out of wood. If this happens I will post it.
How about a live steam version in O gauge ... could have the tender of 263 be a butane tank to provide the heat for boiler and then use DCS to control speed etc. This way it could run on a standard DCS system ...
Brian Liesberg posted:overlandflyer posted:thank god... in the 1920's the 400E may have been state of the art, but it is one of the most ridiculous wheel arrangement in locomotive history. add to that it's long past due to put a halt to all the idiotic liveries it has been forced to wear. i can't help but relate what this locomotive has gone through to that poor dog you always see around the holidays dressed in a sweater to match their owner.
What's wrong with the 4-4-4 wheel arrangement?
I've never understood the hate for the MTH paint schemes, sure I like my black 400e, but nobody is forcing me to buy a purple one.
I thought it was funny. Why so serious? Really? Poor Gary also got a negative one from someone.
George
I guess I just don't get modern tinplate. Part of the cool factor of tinplate, at least for me is the humming and buzzing, and yes even grinding noises the originals made. The rattles and clanks. And the smells too. I see modern tinplate operating at train shows and at first it's cool, but then there's the electronic whistle recordings and loco sounds that just spoil the effect for me.
Kinda like finding a nice old Model A only to get up close and hear a modern overhead cam engine under the hood and then you look closer and see it's a "fake" with an automatic transmission. A nice machine in it's own right, but not quite what you wanted to see.
To paraphrase old Obi Wan, "These are not the trains I'm looking for."
Xs two
I had some tinplate on my table's last spring one of MTH Reps stop by that I know well told me to tell byers that there might not be anymore tinplate made because sale's are way down , so don't think about to long new tinplate could be gone before you know it .
Guy
MartyE posted:Scott
I tend to agree. I think tinplate, at least for the near future, is probably done. Unfortunate because MTH has done a wonderful job with the line.
Well, not "done". There are the original vintage trains, many of which were never reproduced. And, one can chase the newer stuff that is already out there.
As much as I am appreciative of what M.T.H. did in tinplate (e.g., the Super 381), my interest waned when the traditional versions ceased to be made.
Bob
I'm with Bob and Andy: I understand why the newer motors and electronics have taken over, but let something go wrong -- as it inevitably will -- and good luck repairing it. Sure they're quiet and maybe a little more efficient, but they don't have the sound (or ozone smell) that the originals have. I'm sure that long after I'm gone, my original pre-war locomotives will still be operational and entertaining my grandkids. The newer ones? Probably not.
Now I WILL say that MTH gave us all a lot of items that Lionel never dreamed of producing, namely rolling stock in paint schemes and lettering that were never available before, not to mention street lamps, villas and other accessories that quite frankly saved us all a bundle over the price of originals. Mike Wolf has been great for this hobby, and not just us tinplate operators. I'm sure he's got a few ideas of what to do next, and I look forward to seeing the next chapter begin.
I run engines with DCS on my layout and I have enjoyed the MTH offerings in PS3.
I would not purchase a new conventional tinplate engine ... I prefer the original prewar.
I now have several prewar engines and they are all shelf queens because I use the DCS versions for running.
It would be nice to move away from the classics with livery repaints. 44 ton, camelback, GP units steeple cab. A real tinplate pacific steamer would be nice. I liked the super 381, although I don't own one. Simpler said than done. Tooling is expensive, low volumes are impractical. I hope in the long run, repro tinplate is not dead
The newer engines are heartier and can pull more cars. I would love a remade Ives 1122.
It would be nice to be able to remove the electronics on the new engines so they ran more like the open frame motors, but the can motors need some type of voltage and speed control. You could probably design a much less complex circuit than the DCS board. I also think the plastic gears will eventually crack on these engines with age.
George
yamawho posted:I run engines with DCS on my layout and I have enjoyed the MTH offerings in PS3.
I would not purchase a new conventional tinplate engine ... I prefer the original prewar.
I now have several prewar engines and they are all shelf queens because I use the DCS versions for running.
I enjoy both types. I have been running my Proto in conventional more and more lately
Steve
If MTH (or anyone for that matter) can figure out how to get the tooling out of China or make new tooling, here is a segment of the US workforce that has a 70 percent unemployment rate:
Hopefully, Mike W. could make a successful partnership, or ~gasp~ even Lionel.
You all bring up very good points, and food for thought. I have been blessed with more tinplate than I ever dreamed of. However, this thread has really bummed me out. I will hope someday Tinplate Traditions will be back, and not just in special run 400e's😉
Joe Gozzo
I have conventional and PS1, PS2, and PS3 MTH Tinplate trains. I love all of them.
As far as non-original 400E paint schemes go, this is my favorite: https://youtu.be/r1QiSyq98bE
How boring it would be if only original paint schemes were made!
