Old New York

Hi Richie

 

See you liked he BMT . Standards running in the 1950s. I made the same trip at times. Would get on at Marcy Ave and change at Canal but would take the express trans from Canal up to Union Square or Herald Square. Sometimes we would walk up  to North 7th street and take the Canarsie to Union Square . The Multi's ran in those days. At Union Square you could take the Broadway Local up to 28th street and walk back to Lionel at 26th street and American Flyer at 25th street.

 

I can remember riding the trolley car across the Williamsburg Bridge to get to Manhattan and Delancey street . The Trolley fare was normally 5 cents but you could board the trolley on the Bridge at Bedford Ave and ride to Delancey for a mere 2 cents . When Buses replaced the trolleys on the Bridge, this service from Bedford ave was eliminated.

I don't think anybody mentioned this already...do people remember Bob Diamond who used to give underground subway tours in Brooklyn and thought there was an abandoned steam locomotive buried down there??? If yes, anyone actually take one of the tours?

 

http://www.nydailynews.com/new...dy-article-1.1227820

 

Tom  

Bob Diamond was certainly a character.  I took the tour of the Atlantic ave tunnel before the locomotive was "found"  ( Still don't think any was found ) It was basically like walking in a sewer.  Nothing spectacular.   Mr Diamond had a plan to reinstitute trolley service in the Red Hook and Boerum hill neighborhoods  He had a number of PCC cars ready to go but the city shot it down

http://ny.curbed.com/archives/...ed_hook_trolleys.php

https://www.facebook.com/photo...635718751&type=1

This is a facebook link, there is one picture. I'm not able to copy the image.

Don

It worked this time.

Don

Here is one from the nytimes paper this weekend. The car jumped the tracks in Brooklyn at Nostrand and Putnam in 1931. They are digitizing old police photos.

I found this one of the Ninth Ave El in Manhattan from September 11, 1905 which resulted in 13 deaths.

 

Tom

Here is another from the paper. The 1955 Pennsylvania Station bombing. Linked to the "Mad Bomber".
I'd never heard of a bombing at Penn Station.

http://unclelew.tripod.com/id9.html

Eight foot law explained.

More on the Eight Foot Law from the NY Supreme Court, Bronx County, relating to vehicles:

 

…This gave rise to the so-called “eight-foot” law applicable to street-cars and which might at the same time have equally been made applicable to other public conveyances.

   The following is from the prevailing opinion…178 App. Div…Second Department, 1917, after the enactment of the eight-foot law.

   The plaintiff left the sidewalk with the intention of boarding a trolley car which had stopped for the purpose of taking on passengers and when within eight feet of the car was run down by the defendant’s automobile. The defendant’s car was in that place in violation of an ordinance of the City of New York and the question is whether under these circumstances, the plaintiff exercised due care in guarding against injury from the defendant’s car entering the prohibited zone. The ordinance forbidding vehicles to move within eight feet of a trolley car standing for the purpose of receiving or discharging passengers, was enacted for the very purpose of preventing such accidents as the one under consideration.

  The question came up whether the injured party should have been more careful…The plaintiff relied on the assurance of safety in the eight feet zone which the law gave, and that reliance is not negligence as matter of law.”  

 

Tom

 

This looks surprisingly similar.

This picture is of the St Johns building  This was the southern terminus of the High Line.  After the High Line was abandoned Merrill Lynch purchased this building.  It was used solely for computer operations  The second floor was entirely a computer room that housed six mainframe computers, 31 large laser printers and a gaggle of disk drives and tape drives.  The raised floor was 4 feet high to accommodate all the bus and tag cables.   Funny thing was that the railroad tracks were still under that floor.  I worked in that building for about a year while I was with IBM. 

Ben,

 

You need to write a book. All the items you know about the history of the NYC Subway system is amazing.

 

K

Before there was an A train to Far Rock or Rock Pk

 

 

The Rockaway line was considered by the LIRR an important operation. When the railroad began its electrification program, this Branch was the first to be electrified in 1905. Electric trains operated from The Flatbush Ave terminal in Brooklyn ro Woodhaven Junction and then South through Ozone Park across Jamaica Bay to the wye at Hammels dividing to go either east to Far Rockaway or West to Rockaway park or Beach 116th street. In the summer, this was the beach resort to be at . There was also a connection north of Woodhaven Junction to the Railroads Montauk Branch. Eventually a line was constructed North to the present LIRR main to join at Rego Park. The LIRR was a six track main in this area.

 

The railroad operated a round robin type of service between Penn station , Flatbush Avenue and the Rockaways. Some trains went via Jamaica, Valley Stream  and the present Far Rockaway LIRR Branch while others operated over the Jamaica Bay trestle. At Ozone park, there were very long platforms and there was a "Change at Ozone Park"  ritual depending on which which Rockaway you were going to . a Brooklyn Train would arrive followed by a New York Train on the same platform. Passengers could change from one train to the other. The same procedure was on the Northbound side as well when heading to Flatbush ave or Pennsylvania station.

 

Before the electrification, the LIRR built a connection to the BRT's Jamaica Elevated near Cleveland street in East New York. The LIRR could access the Broadway Ferry for passengers to cross the East  River . BRT trains used the connection as well to reach the Rockaways. When the Williamsburg Bridge opened at the  BRT extended accross the Bridge the electric LIRR trains also crossed the Bridge to arrive at Essex Street in Manjattan in 1908. The line and service was quickly extended South to Chambers Street and City Hall area . This was LIRR's first access to Manhattan and it preceded the Pennsylvania station route. For those of you who are familiar with the platform layout at Chambers street, there is a center platform between the center tracks which connect to the lay up tail spur. That Platform was used by the LIRR in those days. The service lated until 1917. There were trolleys operated to the Rockaways over these lines as well.

 

The city had long been interested in acquiring the LIRR's Rockaway line as an extension of the city's rapid transit system. Trestle Fires were a common problem plaguing the LIRR and the 1951 fire did it in. The LIRR continued operations on the line to Hamilton Beach and to Rockaway Park via Far Rockaway. This lasted to 1954-55 when the route was acquired for the extension of the 8th avenue subway line. The LIRR continued to serve Far Rockaway from Brooklyn and Penn station as it does today . Service was continued to Ozone Park until the early 1960s . The Right of way owned by New York City remains and is unused. The first 8th avenue trains started service in 1956 and it was a shuttle service from Euclid Avenue. A second fare was collected making this line a two fare line at the time.

 

I can remember riding the LIRR to the Rockaways when I was a kid. Rockaway Playland was a great attraction and remained so after the subway took over.  

Live Steamer and Everyone! Here's my website on the Rockaway Line: http://www.trainsarefun.com/li...arrockawaybranch.htm

 

I was lucky to catch the French Connection tonight and then found some details as to where it was filmed...

Here are some of the details on the subway/car chase footage:

 

"He requisitions a passing car and begins the movie’s famous chase sequence atBay 50th Street Station. The car chase filmed (over five weeks) beneath theBensonhurst Elevated Railway – 26 blocks (count ’em) of Brooklyn’s Stillwell Linefrom Bay 50th Street Station along Stillwell Avenue, into 86th Street and finally right into New Utrecht Avenue, ending at 62nd Street Station..."

 

Details from:

http://www.movie-locations.com...nn.html#.VRyoyJDD9Dt

 

Tom

Wow!!!   Great stuff

This picture is dated 1921.

I hope it follows the content of this picture perfect thread?

 

 

Thank for the cool pics and videos...Everyone

 

K.C.

KC,
I love the roach coach on the lower right!  Who knew that they were around in 1908.

Heres another shot of the same building a little further back  That's the sixth ave el on the right with Forney steam engines.  Not too many people know why they call it Herald Square!!

 

The New York Herald and the New York Times were arch rivals in the Newspaper business in New York around the turn of the century. The Herald was at 34th street and the times at 42nd street. So the intersects with Broadway which runs sort of on a diagonal in Manhattan and the avenues 6th and 7th aves at 34th street  and 42nd street respectively were named after the newspapers whose locations were at those squares. These two newspapers were among the most influential corporations in New York City at the time.

 

The Herald was owned by the Bennett family . The also owned the Telegram and in later years would acquire the NY Sun and Joseph Pulitzer.s NY World . Two well known newspapers evolved from this combination, the Herald Tribune and the World Telegram and Sun. 

 

Note in the photp there are no automobiles to speak but horse drawn cabs and plenty of streetcars. Thinking the Streetcars were electrically powered . The 5th Ave El had to be converted to electric power shortly after this photo was taken. 

Here is another shot of Herald Square with its namesake building and a little store most have heard of

 

 

interesting. Still little traffic on Broadway. Busses have replaced the streetcars.

I can't really tell the year, I am assuming this might be late 30's or so. It shows how much cars are a post WWII phenomenon, that it took a while before you would see the heavy vehicle traffic in the city. 

OK.  What the heck are these?  Steam cars?

 

 

These are hansom electric taxicabs.  They hit the streets of New York City around 1900. At the time, Manhattan’s  streets and avenues were largely overrun by horse-drawn carriages. These new, small, electric cabs  were able to easily maneuver around corners and squeeze in between the carriages.

 

 

Ben,

 

You are a walking / talking / google machine. Great shot and information

The street cars on Broadway were operated by the Metropolitan Street Railway, a predecessor of the Fifth Avenue Coach Company. The service goes back into the civil war era operating as Horse cars. In the 1889's , it was converted to a cable car operation and electrified in the early 1900's , about 10 years later. The line was acquired by the NY Omnibus company which was affiliated with the 5th ave Coach company. In 1936, the company replaced the streetcars with buses.

 

Iinterestingly, this companys competitor Third Ave Railway system chose to build a new fleet of street cars which it operated on its routes in manhattan. By the end of the second world war, these new streetcars were being sent to European cities to replace cars destroyed during the war.

 

The two photos we have seen posted so far show the company at an interesting time in its history. Most likely, the earlier photo showing the streetcar operation dates from when the cars were electrified using the original cable car conduit in the street for a power source.. The later photo is probably about 1937 as the 6th ave. el is still in operation in the photo.

 

Here is one more photo at this location with its focus on the streetcar line. We see lady shoppers of the day getting on the car, most likely to head to a residence down toward Gramercy Park and Washington Square. Mote the mother with child in arms getting ready to board. There is a conductor in the view and he was likely helping with the ladies getting on the car. And its likely a spring or early summer day in New York City.

 

 

That's a pretty cool pic Larry. 

 

Somebody asked about the Atlantic ave tunnel.  The Atlantic ave tunnel is the oldest known subway tunnel in the world  It was built in 1844 and was used until the 1870's I believe  The architect was none other than the Long Island Railroads Cornelius Vanderbilt.   In the 1980's Bob Diamond unearthed the tunnel and conducted tours of it along with a history lesson  Was pretty cool to go down there even though it was like touring a sewer. The city sealed the tunnel claiming it was unsafe.  Bob Diamond had plans to reopen the tunnels and run PCC cars from Red Hook to Downtown Brooklyn Fulton street.

 

 

I'm always amazed at the work that went into building these older tunnels. Great photos, thanks.

Don

A friend of mine bought these Staten Island photos at a yard sale

 

 

I think some of those photos were taken from Alex's backyard.

 

Here is some more info regarding the PCCs at Red Hook.

 

http://forgotten-ny.com/2000/0...ook-trolley-revival/

 

http://www.brooklynrail.net/index.html

 

And the story of them being removed from Red Hook. Sad.

 

http://ny.curbed.com/archives/...ed_hook_trolleys.php

 

 

Good find, thanks for posting them.

Don

The Third Ave Railway System (TARS) operated a streetcar line in Manhattan on Third Ave of all places. One route ran from Park Row below City Hall uptown to a place known as Fort George. The system used a power pickup in an underground conduit in the center of the trackway with ground return in the riding rails,  The system was converted to Busses shortly following the end of World War 2 . TARS had a modern fleet of cars built in its shops. The ones we see in the following photos were built in 1938.

 

WE are at Park Row just South of the City Hall spur of the Third Ave El. There was a turn around crossover to allow the cars to reverse direction. The Bus in the view is The New York Ominibus , part of Fifth Ave Coach Lines. Some may remember the Hobbyland store which was about where the photographer was standing. It was one of several important Lionel shops in New York City

 

 

 

 

Just a bit North of this Spot, we see a Car emerging from under the City Hall Spur of the Third ave El. The Municipal Building at Chambers street and directly above the BMT's Chambers Street Station is to the right of the car.

 

 

 

So we move onto Third Ave. We are under the Third Ave Ell and we are about where the Cooper Union is located. Appears that the Third Ave had a layup track here and we have three cars awaiting a call to service.

 

 

 

Last for now, we are uptown at 66th street and it looks like there is a delay heading that way.

 

 

THE Long Island Railroad handled Mail on its routes from the 19th century up until 1965. They had some unique electric equipment for this service. The railroad operated a mail train from Pennsylvania Station to Jamaica using a two car train , an rpo and abaggage express car both electric powered. This train at time went to the rockaways over Jamaica bay.

 

we see the two car train resting in the yard at Jamaica in the early 1960s.

 

 

MU Railway Express Agency car #4212 and Railway Post Office car #4209 are coupled as a two-car "mail/express train" and as such is laying up in the Johnson Ave. Yard in Jamaica in April, 1962.  The yard was located south and slightly west of the Jamaica station tracks and near the Dunton Electric Car Shops.  Nearby was the LIRR's freight station.  This view is looking west. (Brad Stiles photo, Dave Keller archive) 

 

http://www.trainsarefun.com/li...o/lirrRPOservice.htm

 

The West Side line in New York had a long history. Its origin goes to the Hudson River Railroad as it was called. The company was formed in 1847 and the line opened to Albany in 1851. The rationale for the railroad was that ice closed the Hudson River to Navigation in the Winter and that the railroad could provide year round service. Its southernmost point was a terminal at Chambers street and West Street and it had a second terminal further north at 30th street. To put the City's development in perspective with the time period,in the 1830's  the areas north of 4th street were mostlyt rural and farm land . Greenwich Village was likely a surburban community.

 

On the east side around 1850, The New York and Harlem railroad was building North along what became today's White Plains Harlem Route . It was a Horse car line in New York City.The Vanderbilt interests were in control of this line and began at the same time acquiring stock in the Hudson River Railroad. By the 1870s the railroads had been merged, a connecting line built from Spuyten Dievel built to the Harlem route in what was to be known as Mott Haven and the first Grand Central erected on the East Side.

 

At some point thereafter, passenger service for the New York Central and Hudson River was consolidated into Grand Central. Passenger service was originally provided in 1851 by the original Hudson River Railroad from the terminal at 30 street. In 1865, The Lincoln Funeral Train left from the 30th street station to head north towards Albany following  a viewing at New York's City Hall. When Passenger service ended on the West Side Line, Mail and Express continued to be handled from the 20th st station until its removal in 1931.

 

Here is an aerial view of the 30th street station looking towards 11th ave and the Hudson River dating to the late 1920s. Lots of steam in the photo.

 

 

 

 

The Terminal leads crossed 10th ave and went through the 31st st yard and turned North on 11th ave. The view below shows that yard.

 

 

 

 

 

This building was in use as the Freight House at 30th st. It was erected in 1851 and most likely was the railroads station and headquarters building at that time. It remained in use for the freight and express business until demolished in 1931.

 

 

 

 

Here is a photo from street level of 30th street about 1930. In the background just right of center is the rising Empire State Building which became the tallest building in the world.

 

 

 

 

The railroad handled a sizeable Milk business at this location. Here we see many milk cans which would be loaded on and off insulated cars used in dairy service. Not all Milk cars had bulk tanks like the Pfaudler cars modeled by Lionel. At small depots alomg the route, dairy farmers might leave their produce for shipment in Milk cans. In this view, the platforms have a large number of cans on them.

 

 

 

 

Although New York City had ordinances prohibiting Steam Locomotive operations in the 20th century, there would seem to have been exceptions and variances to the rule. Here we see New York Central switchers working the yard and terminal at 30th street about 1927. 

 

 

 

 

And if there was steam at 30th street, well there must have been Water tanks as well. So here we have a view of a Tank at 31st street. Thinking that is a Ten Wheeler we see along with the Dummy steam switcher.