Out of phase MTH Z4000 and new Lionel PH 180s

Here's my 2 cents...  rather than mess with the 4 powerhouses , I would reverse the plug on the z-4000 where it plugs into the wall outlet or power bar.... This might mean going to the local hardware store and purchasing an adaptor that will allow you plug the thing in without filing down one of the polarized plugs on the z-4000, I believe you horn &  bell buttons will still be fine and so will the non-derailing feature of your switches.

I would figure out which is correct and change the other, even if it is all four bricks. First make sure your house electrical outlet is correct. You can buy a tester at any hardware store about $2.00. It as red green and yellow lights.

PN -  6SP2983010   It's a phasing plug for the PH 180.     Other option is to buy a 2 prong plug adapter from a hardware or big box store. 

Or get a 4 outlet power strip, cut the plug off and add a new plug with the black and white wires reversed... then plug the 4 bricks into that strip.

For what it's worth, there were indeed some very early MTH Z4000 transformers that were wired "backwards" , and thus were/are out of phase with virtually all other Z4000s and most likely other manufactures transformers. Prior to starting construction on our up-stairs layout, I had trains running all around the living room floor, powered by an MTH Z4000 (very early 1990s vintage). When it came time to begin wiring the up-stairs layout, I purchased a second Z4000 (mid 2000s time frame). I quickly discovered that we couldn't run through the cross-overs between the outer main line and the inner main line without a big welding arc! I contacted my friends at MTH, and they asked for the serial numbers of each of the Z4000s. He quickly told me to box up serial #xxxxxxxx, which was the very old one, and send it back to them and they would fix it. Upon return, we now have two "correct" Z4000s and two Lionel 180 Bricks, powering the whole layout, without issues.

I just switched the output cables of my PH180, when connecting them to a giu input.

I found the shortest extension cord I could, plugged the z4000 into it, then filed the plug on the extension cord so I could plug it in reversed.  No modifications at all to my 4 PHs or the z4000, and all my wiring remained color coded properly.

Which means you have effectively negated any beneficial effect of having a ground circuit.  I don't know how the third wire is connected inside the Z4000

What third wire?  The z4000 has a two prong plug, not three.  Where’s the third wire come in?

Sorry, Moe.  You're right.  I must have been recalling something else.

   I like the extension cord idea except most ungrounded cords have only three outlets. But I guess just putting the Z4000 in it and having them in phase is good enough.  It does seem to be the simplist, cheapest, semi-safe workaround without ever opening things or buying pigtails.

RJR posted:

Sorry, Moe.  You're right.  I must have been recalling something else.

No worries.  I thought I was missing something and you had me worried.

Z4000s don’t have grounded plugs, they have polarized plugs.

We had the same problem with the Ford Model Railroad Club and I changed the 2 180 bricks.  I would never do that again.  Get the Lionel reversing  plugs or make some.  Using an external short extension cord to change the MTH Z4000 sounds good.  Please do not change either power supply polarity permanently as sometime down the line the details will be lost and that power supply will not match similar ones.  Also the MTH Z4000 did not match my Z500 setup!!!!

Depends where they are all plugged in - a receptacle circuit can be on a different leg of the main panel from another in the same room putting them out of phase. 

All of the transformers have polarized plugs. 

Try the Z-4000 on the same receptacle as the bricks.

The Fort Pitt modular club experience the out of Phase/ Z4000 to PH 180 bricks.  Fix, eventually after several tries, was to reverse the polarity on the bricks.  I had a few old three to two prong adaptors that solved the problem without cord cutting.  Really old adaptors have the same size left/right prong.  Or, current three to two adapters, could be modified, with a small file or grinder.  Both prongs have to be the same, (small), size to reverse polarity.

The Z 4000s plug-into the same power source bottom of this board.

With a lot of locomotives on the turntable module, start-up, initial power, was beyond the trip limit of one PH 180. We added the second PH 180, in parallel, to operate the turntable module. (note the Lionel Y-adaptor), that plugs the two PH 180, to the input of the silver box/TPC 400.  Still had to phase the turntable power with the two existing Z 4000's

Note that the PH 180 cords have been modified, shortened and reversed, near the cord end, with butt-splices and shrink tube. Two wire cord is identified with markings on one of the two conductors.   Done without opening the transformers.

Best wishes with your project

Mike CT.

kysouthern posted:

Ours show a date code of 2017 09. We also read a thread about some early Z4000s being reversed. 

The Lionel PH180s that were out of phase had a date code of 2000 48 or lower.  I have not read anything that indicates any PH180s made after that date have had this problem.

All the posts above are discussing the out of phase issue with older Z-4000s and PH180s.  If you have this issue, I think the first step would be to check the date code of the PH180. 

The next step would be Carl's recommendation to plug the Z-4000 into the same receptacle as the PH180s.  A multiple outlet power strip would work.  If the Z-4000 and PH180 are in phase after this step, then I would look at the electrical outlets.  I bought an outlet tester after one of my outlets was causing problems and it turned out to be wired incorrectly.  I then checked all the other outlets which were good.

If the Z-4000 and PH180s are out of phase when both are plugged into the same power strip, and the date code of the PH180 is 2000 49 or later, I think we can assume the Z-4000 is the culprit.  I would go with GREGG's recommendation to reverse the Z-4000's plug using one of the ways mentioned above.

I assume the Fort Pitt modular club reversed the polarity of the PH180s instead of the Z-4000 was because of all the wiring changes that would have been needed if they had changed the Z-4000's polarity.

Thank you to everyone who took the time to reply. It is appreciated.

We did check to see that our outlets are installed correctly, and they are. So, since we had four PH 180s that were in phase with each other, we found an old adapter we had used for Christmas lights that had both blades of the plug the same size. We plugged the Z4000 into it and switched the direction of the plug. Voila, all is in phase.

We are ready to move on to our next challenge and look forward to having trains running in the near future.

Hubert & Marti