Pa Dutch Hamburg Train Show Report - 1/27/2019

You might be reminded that there is a difference between negotiations and purchase.  The first is an incomplete contract and the second is a completed contract.  You could have "negotiated" for a half hour and not gotten the price you liked, and by that time, the other potential buyer would have been long gone.  Same thing could happen in your local hobby shop.  Catch my drift?

Other buyer came to terms with another vendor sales person, and you were rightly out of luck.  It may hurt, but that's business.  How many of us have looked at something, left to think about it, and returned later to find it gone.  Most of us just kick ourselves and move on.

Two points - (1) Possession - I was holding the item.  (2)  Common courtesy - which didn't exist here at all.  If someone else was in the process of purchasing it, the vendor could have said so when I picked it up.  That goes back to point number 1.

Net result is an annoyed customer who is being sure to share the experience with anyone who will listen. . . Got your attention.

Gpritch posted:

I spent the morning at the Pa Dutch Hamburg Train Show this morning, was having an OK time aside from the NARROW aisles and constant bumping into others, then I had a ROTTEN experience with at least one LOUSY UNREPUTABLE vendor. 

Right in the center of the hall, between rows HHH and III, a vendor had a large spread with a fair amount of newer Lionel.  There were not a lot of people around this table.  There was white paper covering the tables.  A particular engine caught my eye.  I picked it up and was looking it over, asking the vendor the price and such.  While it was STILL IN MY HANDS, all of the sudden, the vendor's partner walked over and said I just sold it to a guy at the other end of the table - 15' away.  I said what do you mean?  (Since no one else was looking at the train.)   I was in the process of negotiations, with the PIECE IN MY HANDS.  The dolt said sorry, its now sold.  This happened in a period of 45 seconds.  While loudly expressing my disbelief, I walked out.  

On the way out, I told the lady at the ticket window.  Her reply was "Yeah, some vendors are like that and not very nice."  That's all.  Needless to say, I walked out NEVER to return.  There are other better shows close by,  I will spend my money with vendors I know and trust.  DONE.

 

 

 

I am not a BIT surprised at your unfortunate experience. I am involved with Vintage Hi-Fi, Philately, orchids, and more. And of course trains. In ALL the hobbies I am involved with the MOST MISERABLE experiences I have are with TRAIN DEALERS. I never met so many nasty, hard-nosed, MISERABLE money sucking WRETCHES! Some are crotchety old goats, others are just MISERABLE! I am fast becoming an old goat myself but have thus far maintained my dignity and kindness in my hobbies to my fellow collectors! 

Gpritch posted:

Two points - (1) Possession - I was holding the item.  (2)  Common courtesy - which didn't exist here at all.  If someone else was in the process of purchasing it, the vendor could have said so when I picked it up.  That goes back to point number 1.

Net result is an annoyed customer who is being sure to share the experience with anyone who will listen. . . Got your attention.

 

Gpritch,

 Unfortunately you did not have possession if you did not say the words “I will take it” you were merely holding the item. As far as common courtesy all I can say is you will not find it at a train show (for the most part). I have been at the Hamburg show once picked up a few good buys. If you are going to hold a grudge hold it against the vendor not the show. For the most part the show does not tell or instruct their table holders how to conduct business they have enough trouble stoping vendors from packing up early.

JohnB

JohnB posted:

Gpritch posted:

Two points - (1) Possession - I was holding the item.  (2)  Common courtesy - which didn't exist here at all.  If someone else was in the process of purchasing it, the vendor could have said so when I picked it up.  That goes back to point number 1.

Net result is an annoyed customer who is being sure to share the experience with anyone who will listen. . . Got your attention.

 

Gpritch,

 Unfortunately you did not have possession if you did not say the words “I will take it” you were merely holding the item. As far as common courtesy all I can say is you will not find it at a train show (for the most part). I have been at the Hamburg show once picked up a few good buys. If you are going to hold a grudge hold it against the vendor not the show. For the most part the show does not tell or instruct their table holders how to conduct business they have enough trouble stoping vendors from packing up early.

JohnB

I totally disagree.  The definition of possession, per Google is:

My opinion remains unchanged.  I will spend my money elsewhere with people who have not broken my trust or respect.

You did not have possession, you were examining the item, one that may have already been spoken for, put down while the transaction was being completed.  The problem with one sided views of something is the writer presents their side as the absolute truth.  There will be other shows, other trains, far more important matters in life.  Move on.

Sorry you did not get what you wanted ..  It to me seems you mad because of that.. But we all learn.. my question is if you had that happened again ..Would you of told the seller "too bad" Its in my hands and here the money.. Im not saying the outcome would of changed but at least you would of made the seller  have a bidding war...on his "hands"

I guess l need a clearer picture of the scene.....was there another "custumer" at that space waving $, for the image l first got from your description was that you were alone at the space?  I suspect l would have had to have been there.  Somebody was some distance away counting out green paper while the item was being considered?  It can happen, and "money talks" and "fustest with the mostest" applies.  Has happened to me.

Gpritch posted:

I spent the morning at the Pa Dutch Hamburg Train Show this morning, was having an OK time aside from the NARROW aisles and constant bumping into others, then I had a ROTTEN experience with at least one LOUSY UNREPUTABLE vendor. 

Right in the center of the hall, between rows HHH and III, a vendor had a large spread with a fair amount of newer Lionel.  There were not a lot of people around this table.  There was white paper covering the tables.  A particular engine caught my eye.  I picked it up and was looking it over, asking the vendor the price and such.  While it was STILL IN MY HANDS, all of the sudden, the vendor's partner walked over and said I just sold it to a guy at the other end of the table - 15' away.  I said what do you mean?  (Since no one else was looking at the train.)   I was in the process of negotiations, with the PIECE IN MY HANDS.  The dolt said sorry, its now sold.  This happened in a period of 45 seconds.  While loudly expressing my disbelief, I walked out.  

On the way out, I told the lady at the ticket window.  Her reply was "Yeah, some vendors are like that and not very nice."  That's all.  Needless to say, I walked out NEVER to return.  There are other better shows close by,  I will spend my money with vendors I know and trust.  DONE.

 

 

 

I go to that show when I can. FWIW, I don't let ONE vender Spoil the Whole show. I just avoid them like the Plague... or in this case a case of Corona.

There are many other vendors there and realistically, you are only hurting yourself. Its not like show management can or will do anything about it either.

In your example, if this vendor shows up at the Allentown show, are you going to avoid that show as well?

Gpritch,

 Unfortunately you did not have possession if you did not say the words “I will take it” you were merely holding the item. As far as common courtesy all I can say is you will not find it at a train show (for the most part). I have been at the Hamburg show once picked up a few good buys. If you are going to hold a grudge hold it against the vendor not the show. For the most part the show does not tell or instruct their table holders how to conduct business they have enough trouble stopping vendors from packing up early.

JohnB

AGREED! IMHO, That's my biggest pet peeve as both a buyer and sometimes a seller. Early packers ruin the show- For everyone else!

The PA Dutch Hamburg show has always been a good show for me.  This past Sunday proved to be another good time , picking up a few not necessarily needed items ,LOL. As for the crowed isles , well it shows you the hobby is still alive and kicking , which is a good thing .  I've met some really great folks and some not so great folks there . . Same goes for  the Allentown and York shows . Sure wouldn't give up just because of one vendor ****ing you off .   I still go to all three  plus a few other smaller shows on a regular base with my team and look forward to going again in the future .    

Wow -  doesn’t sound like a reason to never go back again to me

 Should’ve been around back in the 80s and 90s when train meets were in their heyday  

  Stuff like this happened all the time and dealing with some of the “characters” was part of the charm of going 

 I was in my late 20s and 30s and thought it was awesome -  no Internet - no cell phone -cash was king and you were on your own -  The Wild West 😊

necrails posted:

You did not have possession, you were examining the item, one that may have already been spoken for, put down while the transaction was being completed.  The problem with one sided views of something is the writer presents their side as the absolute truth.  There will be other shows, other trains, far more important matters in life.  Move on.

Actually, you a wrong from a legal perspective. He DID have POSSESSION. He was holding it in his hands. That is the law. However, he did not OWN it, and the vendor had the right to take it back, because he did OWN it. Unfortunately for OP, the Owner can sell something that someone else has in their POSSESSION. That is also the law.

Another example would be if you were taking a car out for a test drive, the dealer could sell it to someone else while you are out for a drive. If you really want something badly, you need to close the deal fast. Ownership changes once the contract (sale) is complete, not when someone merely has possession.

George

fisherdoc posted:

Gpritch posted:

I spent the morning at the Pa Dutch Hamburg Train Show this morning, was having an OK time aside from the NARROW aisles and constant bumping into others, then I had a ROTTEN experience with at least one LOUSY UNREPUTABLE vendor. 

Right in the center of the hall, between rows HHH and III, a vendor had a large spread with a fair amount of newer Lionel.  There were not a lot of people around this table.  There was white paper covering the tables.  A particular engine caught my eye.  I picked it up and was looking it over, asking the vendor the price and such.  While it was STILL IN MY HANDS, all of the sudden, the vendor's partner walked over and said I just sold it to a guy at the other end of the table - 15' away.  I said what do you mean?  (Since no one else was looking at the train.)   I was in the process of negotiations, with the PIECE IN MY HANDS.  The dolt said sorry, its now sold.  This happened in a period of 45 seconds.  While loudly expressing my disbelief, I walked out.  

On the way out, I told the lady at the ticket window.  Her reply was "Yeah, some vendors are like that and not very nice."  That's all.  Needless to say, I walked out NEVER to return.  There are other better shows close by,  I will spend my money with vendors I know and trust.  DONE.

 

 

 

I am not a BIT surprised at your unfortunate experience. I am involved with Vintage Hi-Fi, Philately, orchids, and more. And of course trains. In ALL the hobbies I am involved with the MOST MISERABLE experiences I have are with TRAIN DEALERS. I never met so many nasty, hard-nosed, MISERABLE money sucking WRETCHES! Some are crotchety old goats, others are just MISERABLE! I am fast becoming an old goat myself but have thus far maintained my dignity and kindness in my hobbies to my fellow collectors! 

And don’t forget the ones who do not bathe!! 

Not defending vendors, but from the description the OP gave the vendor was in every right to sell the item, it sounds like they had picked up the item,examined it, and asked the guy in front of him about it but before the guy could even respond, it was sold to someone else. OP, had you even offered the guy for it, or did you just show interest?  How do you know that the guy who bought it hadn't already looked at it, agreed to the price, before you even picked it up? If you had made an offer on it, the guy in front of  you accepted it, but then suddenly said it was sold to someone else, I could understand it, but it sounds to me like the item might have been  sold before you even picked it up.  Sounds to me like a timing issue or what we call a race issue in data flow, where the item was sold before there was time to take it off the table. If the guy only had 1 of those, then it goes to the person who agreed to buy it.  If you had been haggling for a while and he didn't want to negotiate any more, he might have signalled his partner and they came over and said it was sold to end the haggling (why he couldn't just say "you are way under what I can sell it for" I don't know, but I have seen this tactic used), but in your description you had barely picked it up and was asking about it. FYI possession when it comes to a sale or a business transaction means where the two parties have agreed to the terms of the sale or whatever, at that point legal possession is with the buyer (unless there is some kind of agreement or rule,that is,  where either side can break the transaction in a given time, the way you can back out from a car sale in NJ within 72 hours of completing the sale as a buyer, or entering other kinds of contracts like home improvements and the like,by law), possession in this case means nothing in terms of physically having it in your hands. If you take a car out for a test drive and the owner sells the car to someone else while you are out, the car is still his and he can sell it to whoever he wants *shrug*.   

Honestly, the anger seems misplaced. First of all, the show doesn't have that much sway over the vendors, if they banned vendors because a customer wasn't happy, they would have few vendors after time, it isn't their fault if the vendor acted like a jerk in your opinion. More importantly, the anger seems misplaced for something that is a discretionary item, rather than a critical need, that it lasted as long as it has. It almost sounds like someone found an original 700e at a train show for 50 bucks in great condition that could sell for several thousand and lost out, rather than what sounds like a modern item that likely  isn't all that rare. It happens all the time, you can lose an auction on fleabay, you can order an item from a dealer then find out it is out of stock, it happens, but to bear a grudge over it, not much sense IMO. 

I have been on both sides of the swap meet table and noticed for the most part folks are reasonable. Although at a recent Ohio show I was tempted to call security on two older gents (vendors) that were yelling at each over the prices of some pre war equipment.  As far as leaving early, I stay to the bitter end. I am going to get the most out of my table rent and it's not fair to the customers that get there late. Some of my better sales are at the end of the show.  Doug

Hamburg is better in warm weather.  There are not as many vendors or buyers so the aisles are wider and you don’t have to content with so much bumping into people and trying to squeeze by.  The selection might not be as large as winter, but you can find some bargains.  And I would much rather take the yard tour at the Reading Historical Society down the street when the weather is nicer.