P&D GP9 Drive Problems

Bob,

Thanks for the feedback.  One statement I'm not real clear on though.  What is the "machined-in side frames" on Kelly's frame?  To me, other than the relief for the ditch lights and difference in material they appear the same.  What am I missing?

Jay

"Well Butch, maybe a couple wraps-o-duct tape otta doer."  Yeah Jay, good ole duct tape will solve most problems in the world.

Thanks for posting Kelly's Finescale 360 contact info Jay, as I can contact him if I have any questions. He really brought that custom frame idea along.  The RC GP-9 has never had it better. From Des Plaines brass frames of a few decades ago to the Finescale 360 set up now.  Wow!

Wouldn't trade my Jay C drive for anything, but at least there are options out there now that really improve this most venerable O scale model and without having to possess machining skill sets and equipment.

Great Thread!!

Butch

Jay -

I don't know what "machined-in side frames" means either. Maybe ask Pete?

Anyway, I learned something new about the two different P&D bolsters. I never worked on both an F and a GP at the same time so I didn't have a chance to mix them up.

I do want to encourage you to at least download the TB 1925 and TB 2008 module data sheets from Parts Express and look at the dimensional drawings to see if either one would fit in your installs. TB modules sound so much cleaner and deeper than even 2" high-bass speakers I've installed in the past. FYI you can cut off the mounting tabs without letting the air out.

Bob S

Jay, there's what's described on Kelly's site as "Prototype frame detail machined into the underside of the frame" which makes it deeper than the Des Plaines brass plate. I'm not sure its exactly prototypical side-frame depth, but it helps to fill the gap where the real  thing would have the side frames visible, especially if you're modelling a later GP9 with cut away side skirts. I seem to recall that the first batch didn't have that (or the ditch light wire channels) but don't quote me as I only have the later versions myself.     

Butch, as you know, I've done some with Kelly's frames and they are nice but the DesPlaines are heavier and cheaper.  What am I not seeing here?

Pete,

Once again, thanks for the feedback.  From what I've seen Kelly's frame has some rather shallow relief machined into the top and bottom of his frame.  Nothing of any significance and hardly noticeable once the gussets, fuel & air tank are installed and the whole thing painted.  Once detailed, I doubt many could tell the difference.  Again, don't get me wrong Kelly's a good guy and filled a need but I'll take the brass any day over aluminum.

Jay

riogrande491 posted:

Jay -

I don't know what "machined-in side frames" means either. Maybe ask Pete?

Anyway, I learned something new about the two different P&D bolsters. I never worked on both an F and a GP at the same time so I didn't have a chance to mix them up.

I do want to encourage you to at least download the TB 1925 and TB 2008 module data sheets from Parts Express and look at the dimensional drawings to see if either one would fit in your installs. TB modules sound so much cleaner and deeper than even 2" high-bass speakers I've installed in the past. FYI you can cut off the mounting tabs without letting the air out.

Bob S

Now I know why I ended up with a "low-rider" F Unit and an "off-roader" GP9 when I did two upgrades at once...  

Bob, those speakers have changed my life!  I have the 1925S in everything now, even my Yoder 44 tonner (bit of a squeeze).  I never get tired of sound during ops sessions like I used to. And the HO guys that come to my ops sessions can't seem to stop grinning either.        

Jay C posted:

Pete,

Once again, thanks for the feedback.  From what I've seen Kelly's frame has some rather shallow relief machined into the top and bottom of his frame.  Nothing of any significance and hardly noticeable once the gussets, fuel & air tank are installed and the whole thing painted.  Once detailed, I doubt many could tell the difference.  Again, don't get me wrong Kelly's a good guy and filled a need but I'll take the brass any day over aluminum.

Jay

All good. I added Evergreen I-beam side-frame sections to the brass ones I had from before and it looks great anyway. I started to add traction motor cables etc. that are visible when the side skirts are cut away on the CP GP9u upgrades, but that is a quick way to lose one's sanity...    

Pete M posted:

Now I know why I ended up with a "low-rider" F Unit and an "off-roader" GP9 when I did two upgrades at once...  

Yup,  just figured out a couple of days ago when individual Sunset F units in ABBA sets ended up having different ride heights.  With the GP trucks I was having to add almost 3/32" of spacers to make them match with this constant WTF going through my head.  I guess in one of my last orders I must have added GP trucks to the cart for some reason, I be clueless.   Now to see about either exchanging them or selling them and buying the F unit version.  Pfffft!

Let me check what I have on hand in case a swap might help us both! I have a B unit and 2 GP9s to finish but I haven't looked at the bolsters yet...  

Update: Sorry for the false hope but it turns out I do have the right number of correct bolsters on hand.

"Butch, as you know, I've done some with Kelly's frames and they are nice but the DesPlaines are heavier and cheaper.  What am I not seeing here?"

Sorry, I can't find the quote icon so I'm doing it the old fashion way.  

I still have two Des Plaines brass frames Jay, but liked the fact that Kelly's frame was stiffer. One of my DP frames has a bow and I figured it would change the shape of the plastic RC walkway rather than the walkway straightening up the DP frame. I also figured it might not be as stout as Kelly's frame going forward, which is mostly likely wrong. Actually both frames will work fine, but I wanted to try Kelly's frame and help his project to fruition. 

I checked the fit of the RC loco on Kelly's frame last night and I was totally wrong. Couplers will hold his frame to the walkway/shell very nicely, just like they do on the factory set-up.  Very easy to do this.    I'm not sure what I was thinking, but I'll chalk it up to a senior moment.  

I have enough decorated RC shell kits, purchased decades ago, that I can use the DP frames to make un-powered units. I won't need more than one powered unit per train on any layout I'll have in the future. 

This thread has re-inspired me to get my a-- in gear and back on these projects. I love GP-9's almost as much as "F" units and have enough of each in the queue to take years to complete if I just get started. 

Butch

Hi Butch

The "Quote" option is in "Take action" bottom right.

Cheers

Thanks Max!  I see it now. Old eyes miss more than I would like to admit. 

Butch

Butch,

A long time ago you said, "I still have two Des Plaines brass frames Jay, but liked the fact that Kelly's frame was stiffer.".  I don't really agree.  I much prefer brass and I hate aluminum.  Plenty stiff, especially after I solder on a pair of these.   In fairness to Kelley, I got the idea from him when he gave instructions for doing them in plastic.

Yep, I'm having to cut them off the RC frame and attach them to Kelly's frame. 

Pete -

Call me crazy but I'm about to try hanging a TB1931S module under a DP GP9 brass frame, through the fuel and air tanks, firing down. To distract the viewer's eyes the trucks will be silver but the rest black. Look over here, not under there...

What got me started? I've been editing a new sound file for a pair of New River & Western GP9s to run on the A&O. (In theory the NR&W is now a wholly-owned subsidiary of the A&O.) They will be initially operated using a ProtoThrottle (I hope there will be enough cab bus bandwidth to do that with 18 NCE throttles running during full-on op sessions.) The test speaker on my LokProgrammer is currently a 1931 and I just can't go back to install a smaller module.

There should still be room in the fuel tank for some cast-in-place low temp alloy weights.

Butch,

Plastic?

Jay

The model is packed away, but it looks exactly as it did when you finished with it.  I'm really talking out of school here, as I don't remember what Kelly's instructions were, but do remember at one time I was going to removed these vertical (under chassis) braces from the stock RC chassis and attach them to either the DP or Kelly's aluminum chassis. This could have been thinking from 20 years ago as this has been a long term project.

What is the proper set-up, I can't remember now?

I know that feeling Bob!

I got hooked on TB 1931s a couple of years back as well. And yes, I too have one on my LokProgrammer board.   The 1925s that I used to think were the bee's knees sound a bit lame after that.  I have TB1931s in my Atlas MP15DCs and C-424, OMI MP15AC, C&LS RS-11s and 32s.  My P&D F7A and B have TB1942s now. The chassis are basically a speaker with a truck on each end, thanks to the space created by using Jay's dual-motor drives. 

Somewhat ironically the only locos I haven't been able to cram 1931s into are my RC GPs so I am very keen to see how your cunning plan works out! 

Pete

Pete -

When the time comes I'll post progress photos of the fiasco, er, build on the A&O web site. It would be relatively easy to hide a 1925S in the fuel tank since it is almost exactly the same length. The S0768 16-567 engine very rapidly drops to idle and has a good, throaty sound that just demands more bass. The file reminds me of a screaming Ontario Northland GP9 kicking cars posted to Youtube.

Here you can see the relative size of a 1931 compared to the under frame of an original RC 2R drive. No, I won't be modifying this one for the project. Of course the usual weight in the fuel tank will have to go, but there will be room in the sides of the tank for Cerrobend. I also have U-shape steel weights for 3R locomotives that Bill McClung gave me some years ago. The fake RC plastic frame stiffeners aren't the right profile (should be more of an I-beam) so I'll do a little faking there, and move them outboard to clear the speaker. How do I know? I photographed GW2233, an ex-ATSF GP7, while being scrapped (with permission, of course.)

In my narrow hood Overland diesels I still install the 1925S. Nobody has ever complained about the sound.

Look forward to more on this conversion Bob.