Passenger Car Voids...Market Opportunity?

I have a modest collection of passenger cars consisting of a few Northeastern railroads.

My best passenger set is a K-Line 15 inch heavyweight NY Central set that are Pullman Green in color and have seated passenger figures in them.

Nothing longer that 15 inches will run well on my Postwar tubular track layout with 031 curves and 022 switches.

I was so happy when I got that K-Line set, which was about 1 year ago, that I said to myself that I will never need another set of passenger cars. Before I got that particular K-Line set, I had wanted it for a long time because for the past several years  I have been adding features to my layout reminiscent of The Put, which ran NY Central Pullman Green heavyweight passenger cars.

I had a similar Lionel NY Central heavyweight passenger set in Pullman Green and with silhouettes instead of passenger figures that also looked great, but the cars were 18 inches in length and often derailed on my 022 switches.

I totally agree with you, Don, that K-Line made a great product and it would be a very good thing if the manufacturers would continue to make high quality sets of passenger cars in which the cars are 15 inches or less in length. I have several sets of passenger cars that are 12 or 13 inches in length that also run very well on my layout and look good navigating it.

Arnold

18” aluminum passenger cars are on my wish list as well. K Line did the New Haven 4 car set but with no coaches. Strange they did that.

KD: Your suggestion makes perfect sense as I’m sure there are a lot of us out there who would buy these “fill-in” cars. But whether Lionel, which I believe has the K-line tooling for these, will ever step up and and produce them, remains to be seen. 🤔

I'm in for 15 or 18 inch aluminum passenger cars, but they need to have molded seats and LED lighting (I'll be happy to add passengers) and not silhouettes.

I just got a new 18314 PRR GG-1, and would like to add some passenger cars.  I haven't seen any PRR passenger cars in aluminum although I haven't done an exhaustive search.  Did the PRR not have those types of passenger cars back in the day, only the ones that I think are called heavyweights?  Excuse me if I've used the wrong terminology.

Yes, PRR ran a variety of streamlined passenger cars, and both K-Line and MTH (and maybe even Lionel) have produced streamlined (as opposed to Heavyweight) PRR passenger cars in aluminum.  Just search for PRR passenger cars with Fleet of Modernism (FOM) or Broadway Ltd designations and aluminum construction.  You should get several results.

Chuck

I have something funny to share about passenger cars.

When I was a kid, my mother loved Lionel trains and bought most of my trains which I received as birthday and Christmas gifts. However, although I got plenty of Lionel 027 trains and accessories and I liked passenger trains, I never got any passenger cars. My mother didn't buy them for me because they didn't do anything. LOL.

She liked freight trains, especially operating cars, and accessories, because they did things.

@Arnold D. Cribari posted:

I have something funny to share about passenger cars.

When I was a kid, my mother loved Lionel trains and bought most of my trains which I received as birthday and Christmas gifts. However, although I got plenty of Lionel 027 trains and accessories and I liked passenger trains, I never got any passenger cars. My mother didn't buy them for me because they didn't do anything. LOL.

She liked freight trains, especially operating cars, and accessories, because they did things.

Well Arnold, at lease getting more freight cars was better than nothing. 😉 I too, never got any passenger cars as a kid. Maybe that’s why I like them so much, now.

While there is certainly interest in seeing 15" and 18" cars produced in aluminum the biggest downside is the cost to produce them.  There is not a lot of tooling required for aluminum extruded cars which is what makes them desirable from a manufacturing standpoint.  The upfront costs are relatively low.  Not nearly as many cars need to be sold to make a run financially viable.  

The biggest challenge is the cost to produce these cars.  The difference in production costs between a 15" and 21" car is negligible.  All the same components are required for each size car and the labor to produce them is the same.  The little bit of materials savings comes out in a wash.  At today's market prices, a new aluminum car would cost in the $300 range per car.  I don't personally see a market in 15" or even 18" cars at that price point.  When GGD offered 18" versions of the most popular of the 21" sets offered in the past there was not a lot of interest.

It seems that best bet in today's O gauge market would be small runs from former MTH Premier and Railking tooling.  Those tools have been amortized several times over so the upfront investment would seem to make those cars most viable.   

@GG1 4877 posted:

It seems that best bet in today's O gauge market would be small runs from former MTH Premier and Railking tooling.  Those tools have been amortized several times over so the upfront investment would seem to make those cars most viable.   

Yea, but they’d be plastic! 👎 😔

@GG1 4877 posted:

While there is certainly interest in seeing 15" and 18" cars produced in aluminum the biggest downside is the cost to produce them.  There is not a lot of tooling required for aluminum extruded cars which is what makes them desirable from a manufacturing standpoint.  The upfront costs are relatively low.  Not nearly as many cars need to be sold to make a run financially viable.  

The biggest challenge is the cost to produce these cars.  The difference in production costs between a 15" and 21" car is negligible.  All the same components are required for each size car and the labor to produce them is the same.  The little bit of materials savings comes out in a wash.  At today's market prices, a new aluminum car would cost in the $300 range per car.  I don't personally see a market in 15" or even 18" cars at that price point.  When GGD offered 18" versions of the most popular of the 21" sets offered in the past there was not a lot of interest.

It seems that best bet in today's O gauge market would be small runs from former MTH Premier and Railking tooling.  Those tools have been amortized several times over so the upfront investment would seem to make those cars most viable.   

I agree.  When Scott announced those 18" cars, I didn't reserve them.  And I am an 18" passenger car nut.  IMO, MTH Premier was hitting the sweet spot on passenger cars in terms of features/price.

@Yellowstone Special posted:

Yea, but they’d be plastic! 👎 😔

Why does it matter what they're made out of?

The market opportunity is for all passenger cars, not just the 15" and 18" passenger cars.

Two examples.  There's an opportunity to sell a full baggage, dome, and diner for the green with yellow stripe 11" passenger cars.

Second example: there's an opportunity to sell a full set of 48' (baggage, combine, diner, dome, coach, observation) Wabash streamliners because of the large numbers of Wabash F3s that were made.

Buy what you like or can afford. 15”, 18”, 21”. Aluminum or plastic. Cost and Layout size impacts choices of everything too.

It Does Seem the 15s and 18s are mostly being ignored - IMO. But maybe they weren’t selling as much as we think. 🤔🤔 It sure seems like Atlas is missing sales by not utilizing the MTH molds more often.
I run 18s and 21s. It’s a matter of what has been manufactured for me. If there’s only 18s available, that’s what I’ll buy and run. If 21s get done, I’ll opt for that and sell the 18s. I’ve room to do that and I appreciate the better attention to detail I see on the 21s - specifically the GGD offerings.

@MikeH posted:

Why does it matter what they're made out of?

Because, as discussed in another thread, some of us who run modern streamlined passenger cars, think they’re better in aluminum than plastic.

@Yellowstone Special posted:

Because, as discussed in another thread, some of us who run modern streamlined passenger cars, think they’re better in aluminum than plastic.

I don't want that delicate of a car.  I AVOID aluminum and brass as I don't want squashed trains in transit to and from the club layout at various train shows.  Also, I want the best detail at the lowest possible cost.  MTH plastic 18" is the best bet every single time.  I have an aversion to spending more than 100 bucks on any one car of any type. 

"Some" and "think"...those are the two definitive words.  I have a set of aluminum GGD 21" and LOVE them....but they were like $350 a car.  They would look best on O-144...but who has that room unless you have a club in a warehouse?

But I've bought a couple sets of plastic MTH 18" cars and absolutely LOVE them, too, and they were like $50 a car...some less.  They still overhang O-72.   99.9% of the visitors to my layout would never know the difference.  I'd take the $50 plastic any day over the $350 aluminum.  Sure, I can tell the difference, but so does my wallet.  And right now, my wallet takes priority over pride.

But both options are welcome and wanted.

I'd welcome remakes of some Metra/CNW bi-level commuter cars.  There is a k-line set on an auction website that is over $2500.  I don't care if they are gold - that price is ridiculous, IMO.  That may be the going rate, but that's because of the void.

Make a set of 8 in plastic (18") for less than $100 per car and fill the void.

Brian and VADarthDad:  Your points are well taken. I'm not a model train club guy, nor a train shows guy. I got enough of both when I lived in California back in the 1980s. Nowadays, I get enough social interaction with the music group (Country & Hawaiian) I play in, along with the people who like our music.

So, my Santa Fe and Union Pacific ALUMINUM passenger cars never leave the house. Therefore, transporting them is a non-issue for me. It's just that I love the gleaming, shiny glint one sees bouncing off each Santa Fe aluminum car as they round a corner on the layout. You just don't get that with plastic cars. 😉

@Yellowstone Special posted:

Because, as discussed in another thread, some of us who run modern streamlined passenger cars, think they’re better in aluminum than plastic.

Is there some specific feature that recommends them though?  I’m legitimately ignorant on this.  What’s better about aluminum construction. over brass, over plastic?  Or is this just flame-war material like DCS vs. Legacy?

@MikeH,

It's personal preference.  I never owned a passenger car until last year.  I bought some Lionel 18" Santa Fe aluminum ones.  As @Yellowstone Special said, they just look cool.  I don't think I could buy plastic ones.

@MikeH posted:

Is there some specific feature that recommends them though?  I’m legitimately ignorant on this.  What’s better about aluminum construction. over brass, over plastic?  Or is this just flame-war material like DCS vs. Legacy?

Well, I just think aluminum cars are stronger, heavier, and look better. There's just more substance to them. I've never owned anything brass. But again, my personal preference.

Plastic can be made to look as good as metal. Look at plastic freight vs brass. It used to be that polished metal cars like the Texas Special could only be replicated in metal but MTH has shown on their SF warbonnets that even plastic can look as good if not better than metal.

IMO Lionel’s 21” NYC ESE cars look better than GGD’s. Silver finish matches the prototype, full width diaphragms, and much better looking and rolling trucks.

You have to look at them on a case by case basis.

Pete

IMHO: these are the most beautiful 15” shiny Lionel aluminum AT&SF passenger car sets: 4-car #6-15312 and the 2-car add-on #6-29152. I am fortunate to own 2 NIB sets of each. These have full detail interiors with LED lighting. I am now working to fill a void with NIB #6-19110 Combo and #6-19111 Diner. These shiny cars do not have detailed interiors or interiors like the cars in the sets listed above. I was able to get the car ends with diaphragms, the detailed trucks and the LED strips from the Lionel parts department to upgrade the exteriors and illumination to the 6-15312 and 6-29152 sets. I am currently sourcing window glazing, interiors seating, fixtures and passengers from a variety of sources. This project is time consuming but will fill the Lionel voids to complete my AT&SF Super Chief when it is completed!

@VegasTrains posted:

IMHO: these are the most beautiful 15” shiny Lionel aluminum AT&SF passenger car sets: 4-car #6-15312 and the 2-car add-on #6-29152. I am fortunate to own 2 NIB sets of each. These have full detail interiors with LED lighting. I am now working to fill a void with NIB #6-19110 Combo and #6-19111 Diner. These shiny cars do not have detailed interiors or interiors like the cars in the sets listed above. I was able to get the car ends with diaphragms, the detailed trucks and the LED strips from the Lionel parts department to upgrade the exteriors and illumination to the 6-15312 and 6-29152 sets. I am currently sourcing window glazing, interiors seating, fixtures and passengers from a variety of sources. This project is time consuming but will fill the Lionel voids to complete my AT&SF Super Chief when it is completed!

Awesome, Al! The ATSF 4-car and the 2-car add-on sets you mention above are what make up my Santa Fe Super Chief. I wish Lionel would’ve made a combo and diner car to complete the set. But I’ve learned to live without them.

I guess I’m not as ambitious and resourceful as you are in wanting to create them. 😔

If I remember correctly, from the time of the K-Line fallout, it was Bachmann that acquired the tooling for the aluminum passenger cars. They basically buried them because the selling price would not fit in their pricing structure for Williams O gauge.

A $300 passenger car would be priced higher than the Williams locomotives, so they decided not to produce them.

I had hoped Williams by Bachmann would continue the line. I have no knowledge if they still have the tooling.

Passenger cars made of actual stainless steel

Passenger cars with roofs that have an interior hinge that will allow for the roof to be opened to add and remove figures and details.

LED miniature lighting that is in scale proportion for the passenger car.

Andrew

I always like mth railking passenger cars. They are the right size for my layout. I also like the clear windows, so I could install various people either sitting or standing or eating. They were also at a good cost point for me. I have 4 different sets and would like to add a few more items

@Brian DeFazio posted:

I don't want that delicate of a car.  I AVOID aluminum and brass as I don't want squashed trains in transit to and from the club layout at various train shows.  Also, I want the best detail at the lowest possible cost.  MTH plastic 18" is the best bet every single time.  I have an aversion to spending more than 100 bucks on any one car of any type.

Expensive? Yes. Delicate? No. These are extruded aluminum cars, not sheet aluminum. They’re much more durable than plastic castings.

Detail-wise, yes, extruded aluminum is sparse. But details can be added on separately, making a more realistic model. Of course, that adds to the price.

I have Lionel’s 2006 aluminum models of the late 1930s Milwaukee Road “Hiawatha” cars. Treasure.

Here's a couple of photos I took just now of Lionel aluminum passenger cars from each set I have. Please notice that they are 15" cars, just right for my layout with its 036 curves. To me, the Santa Fe Regal Arms Pullman does not appear to be lacking in many details. The Union Pacific coach, may be lacking some detail, but looks good enough for me.

I was fortunate enough to find both of these scarce sets, including their 2-car add-ons, MIB, at very reasonable prices. I can run each set at high speeds even through my 036 partial S curve with no derailments or problems.  If I had wider radius curves, I would have gone with the 18 inch cars. I've seen layouts in person with 21 inch passenger cars and to me, that's just too much car for O scale and they looked funny going around curves, no matter what the radius.

Anyway, 15 inch aluminum passenger cars work well for me on my layout. So that's my story and I'm sticking with it.

@Bob B posted:

I always like mth railking passenger cars. They are the right size for my layout. I also like the clear windows, so I could install various people either sitting or standing or eating. They were also at a good cost point for me. I have 4 different sets and would like to add a few more items

I agree with Bob. Was nice to be able to bounce between manufacturers to find a set you liked. For instance, I was trying to find the non-streamlined passenger cars for NYC and couldn't find any Lionel ones around but there was a nice MTH Railking set. I don't mind sticking with one manufacturer for freight rolling stock but for some reason I'm more picky with passenger cars and don't care who makes them as long as they fit well.

@Yellowstone Special posted:

Handsome cars both - Lionel really did an outstanding job on it's newer 4 wheels trucks on the Santa Fe above. The detail and overall 'feel' is fantastic.

I have a couple of passenger sets that I would sell as I'm scaling back:

All aluminum K-Line 18" Canadian Pacific, K-Line 21" B&O "Cincinnatian", K-Line 21" no-road name 4 car set, MTH Premiere Santa Fe 18", Weaver 20" aluminum Northern Pacific, and Lionel 18" PWC Canadian Pacific aluminum add-on 2 pack with new trucks like those pictured above.

@GG1 4877 posted:

At today's market prices, a new aluminum car would cost in the $300 range per car.  I don't personally see a market in 15" or even 18" cars at that price point.  When GGD offered 18" versions of the most popular of the 21" sets offered in the past there was not a lot of interest.

Not sure I agree with that.  The problem for manufacturers is that consumers are going to be more picky at $300 per car than they are at $300 per set.

@Bill N posted:

Not sure I agree with that.  The problem for manufacturers is that consumers are going to be more picky at $300 per car than they are at $300 per set.

I think you're both saying the same thing.  At least, that's how I read it.

1) I think people didn’t want to spend the same $ for a set of GGD 18” cars as the 21” cars.
2) Most people used to spending 300$ for a set of 18” cars Are Not going to spend 300$ Per Car.

IMHO

Now that Atlas has MTH's 18 inch car moulding, I wish they'd consider running some stuff that MTH hasn't run in ages.

I think it is high time somebody puts out another Rock Island set. No, not the "Golden State" set, but the plain old Rock Island set. I believe that the last Rock Island set was done about 20 years ago, and it's time for a re-run.  Lionel has obligingly put out Rock Island E-6s and E-7s, so it's not like they have to tool up a run of locomotives. I'm not asking for a big re-run, but at least a mid-sized one.

My biggest disappointment with the MTH premier line was with their dining car.  I wish the dies could be retooled so that the "front" end would sport smaller windows and a service door like most people's dining cars.

I also think that an 18 inch "slumber coach" would be cool.  I'd rather buy multiples of them than a full-length dome car.

I think it would be cool to see more 18 inch cars like the SP's ribbed-side blunt-end observation cars. I like observation cars as much as the next guy, but the SP's cars were had diaphrams and were designed to run in mid-train at need.

Also, some passenger cars (even streamlined cars) weren't full-length.  Santa Fe's baggage cars an RPOs were notable examples.

Although a single new car body style matching a K-Line set might be pricey when considered by itself, I'd suggest having that additional car might actually improve the value of the entire set.  IOW, take that B&O 4-car set of 15"-ers.  Let's say today's set value was around $300...$75 per car.  A new matching dining car released at, say, $300 is offered.  I might say that the new car added another $25 to the value of each of the original 4 cars, viewing the real cost of that new car at $200...very affordable when measured against my own passion.

But, I suppose this all could be argued ad nauseum, and everyone will have their own budgetary perspective.  I'm surely in the minority, but I'd certainly consider a $300 match for a unique addition to those gorgeous 15" sets I have.

Besides, there are a couple of changes in the original K-Line design that I'd accept in their effort to hold down costs.  First, and foremost, would be to replace the old 'Streamlighting' (?) multi-bulb incandescent lighting with LED's...a definite improvement.  Secondly, I'd be willing to have even fewer...if any...rider figures.  There are so few already in the original cars, that many of us would be adding additional ones, anyway. 

Probably the most basic priority...matching paint colors to the original set...could be the most problematic in the final analysis.  Poor choice of color seems to be a never-ending gripe in new product reviews.  It could be an early market-killer for the whole idea...and a 'Never again!' perspective by the manufacturer.

Thanks for everyone's participation in the discussion.  It's fun to dream.

KD

Honestly, there is probably a niche market now that I think about this a bit.  As many recall, Eliot Welz produced pretty well done Amfleet and Metroliner aluminum cars out his own workshop.  The key to aluminum is having an extrusion tool that has the correct shape.  OK Streamliners has made a business out of creating custom aluminum extruded cars too. 

In the case of the K-Line cars they had just a smooth extrusion and a fluted one as I recall.  Otherwise, they were generic.

Hmmm..... not something I have time for, but an interesting thought.

I wish there were some 18" or 21" smoothside coaches (not diners, observation cars, pullmans, baggage cars, combines, parlor cars, etc.) similar to what was used in the DL&W's Phoebe Snow train. Most models are either corrugated sides, or specialty cars, or part of 6/8 car sets that no one wants to break up for just the coaches. Sigh.