Penn Station NY...how does this pass code?

Careful -the ADA lawyers are running that way now.

If people would just accept responsibility for their own actions, it wouldn't be a problem.

Ohh, never mind, I forget that this isn't the 1940's any more, that is never going to happen.

Doug

What does the American Dental Association have to do with passenger trains

Then most of the London Underground would be dangerous.  They warn you to "Mind the Gap".

Yep, need to watch where you are stepping.  

 I am amazed this passes code or ADA requirements. 

My guesses:

1 - The station platforms must predate the ADA. They are probably grandfathered.
2 - Is the whole platform problematic? Maybe there are sections that have a small gap.

How do passenger railroads deal with the ADA in places where there aren't any platforms, and the passengers have to climb steps to get on and off the train?

I don't mind those gaps. It helps to prevent the rats from getting into to control cab and taking over. 

Maybe the ADA should never have been passed. Why is complaining about this an issue to you?? How about MYOB?

Maybe some day all the passenger train stations will have idiot-proof boarding, like the Metro in Toulouse France. The platform is walled off from the tracks and the doors open only when a train has stopped in exact alignment.

The old Seattle monorail has extendable walkways which butt up to the train, at the downtown station where one platform serves two tracks. (Somehow this reminds me of Lionel stock-car loading and unloading).

C W Burfle posted:

 I am amazed this passes code or ADA requirements. 

 

My guesses:

1 - The station platforms must predate the ADA. They are probably grandfathered.
2 - Is the whole platform problematic? Maybe there are sections that have a small gap.

How do passenger railroads deal with the ADA in places where there aren't any platforms, and the passengers have to climb steps to get on and off the train?

they use a wheelchair lift. It's a platform that the conductor hand cranks up to the train floor level.

So next time I see a possible issues in a transit situation, maybe I will MYOB, like in the case of an unattended package.......

It is the duty of all citizens to speak up if he/she sees something wrong!  

C.W. Burfle mentioned it earlier, and the word is GRANDFATHERED! It was built to code at the time, and can stay as long it isn't modified. One change to the structure, and it all has to be brought up to current code, unless there is a good reason which makes it impossible to do so. Then a variance must be obtained. The railroads might qualify easily on this front.

For those ADA haters out there, I couldn't disagree with you more. I'm not disabled yet, but I'm slowing down, and stairs are not getting any easier. All you able body types can curse it, but it was landmark legislation, one of the best things BushI ever signed.

Loosely related to this topic: The NYC subway system is making itself more accessible all the time. Most of the larger stations have elevators now. It is always a two stage trip, from street to turnstile mezzanine, then from there in a second elevator to the platform. You have to be well versed in the locations, because many are a long way from where you get off the train, if you don't know better. It's no picnic, but ADA made it possible!

We in this country, have had nearly 30 years to get used to all the changes ADA brought us. We hardly notice them anymore. All you have to do to see the difference is visit Canada. They have no national standard for architectural improvements for the disabled. I was in Downtown Toronto a few years ago, and was horrified by what someone thought was a wheelchair ramp. It was only about five feet high, the problem was it was also only about five feet long. It sure looked like a 45 degree angle, then there were tiny steps down the middle that someone would use to walk the wheelchair up or down. I wish I had taken a photo. We take something as simple as a handrail on a stairway for granted. Again in Toronto, at the railroad station (just to get my rant back on the rails) this long marble stairway had NONE. When you're used to hanging to one, the journey up is a lot more difficult without.

Finally, if you think ADA was a bad idea, imagine yourself in a wheelchair! That should change your tune. ADA has made this country better, by allowing the disabled among us more freedom and a chance to go places and do things that the rest of us just take for granted.

Only the end sections where the track and platform start curving to the center.  I assume with the coming improvements for Penn Station the safety enhancements will be made.  In some places you can't even walk between the elevator shaft and train without bumping the train.  Of course that is totally awesome for a railfan..along with that hot greasy smell down on the platforms lol

Yeah most people do watch the gap...but I am thinking more of a kid getting bumped in the mad rush.    You know there was a time when busy grade crossings were only protected by cross bucks yet people stopped and paid attention...a lot less accidents than now days with people getting stuck in gates and acting like that is the danger and not the train about to hit them.

Actually Mike, back in the day there were plenty of grade crossing accidents. Today there are still a lot, but on a per capita basis the numbers have to be WAY down. The major factor today has to be inattention or failure to obey the law on the part of the public. The railroads are doing everything reasonably within their powers to reduce accidents. Unfortunately, local governments keep enacting noise ordinances, handcuffing the railroads from using one of their best safety devices.

Odd, I was in NYC for a week in September and took almost all the trains out of Penn station and I don't recall such a gap on any train I boarded there. But then again I walk just fine for now and might not have noticed.

I occasionally see the cost for rail-related projects and the dollar percentage of the projects used for ADA compliance are staggering.  BIG chunks of money.    As to the efficacy of the ADA that's not for this forum....

With that said, the original Penn Station as built surely had some interesting architecture.  Moving the masses in style was the architects first and foremost goal. 

And even now, the Penn Station clearances have nothing on the elevator used to access the Red Caboose on 45th St in NYC.   I didn't know it was possible to make a phone booth into an elevator car. 

I seem to recall (though I have no recollection as to location of the stop/station) somewhere in the NYC subway system I saw little areas that extended towards the train upon arrival where there was a significant gap.  After boarding the extension then retracted to its original position to allow the train to leave.

Anyone else see/remember such a thing?  It is sort of a long thin triangle that pivots towards the train to fill in a large gap.

We were all young once, and all had keen senses.  As I get older, I can see myself slowing down.  Never, ever thought that would happen.  So it's comforting to know that some accommodations have and are being made so that when I inadvertently miss something, there is a sort of safety net in place.  

My eyesight is still good, I don't wear glasses except to read.  However, when driving I have noticed that certain cars don't seem to make an appearance as soon as they used to.  Particularly the grey and other subdued colors seem to appear out of now where on less than perfect sunny days. My headlights are on all the time when I'm driving.  I think it should be mandatory to have your headlights on at all times.

Dave45681 posted:

I seem to recall (though I have no recollection as to location of the stop/station) somewhere in the NYC subway system I saw little areas that extended towards the train upon arrival where there was a significant gap.  After boarding the extension then retracted to its original position to allow the train to leave.

Anyone else see/remember such a thing?  It is sort of a long thin triangle that pivots towards the train to fill in a large gap.

I believe you're thinking of the old South Ferry station. The platform had a serious curve to it, because the tracks formed a loop. When the train pulled in, extendable plates closed the gap. I want to say the new station has this too.

The Times Square IRT shuttle station has them, too. The platforms are built on the original curve where the cross-town direction changed to the uptown IRT Broadway/7th Ave. line.

If a wheelchair can get to a location, a baby carriage and rolling bags can too!

On the other hand, there are some issues no law can correct.  Do you want me to operate a train or a plane, and have to see signals or runway markings, considering I am colorblind?

In a way, the ADA is like PTC.  Great idea, but sometimes lacking in some details.  Cause:  Pols who want to "feel good"!

Speaking of gaps, http://www.npr.org/2016/04/15/...ind-the-gap-man-diesMind the gap

Regarding the Penn Station gap....It was mainly down near the end where the tracks curve inward.  I would assume 99% of the people board away from these areas but the doors on some of the MU type commuter trains still open at the ends.  And yeah 99% of the people know to step just fine.  Probably not even a problem for people who have trouble walking as they are probably even paying more attention to where they go.  But I am just surprised someone hasn't found a way to sue over this.  A local hospital was sued by a woman who stepped on an acorn...yes...and they had to settle for 6 figures.