Pennsy S2 Turbine

Ted Hikel posted:

Hot Water posted:

You might want to read the article "Battleship of the Rails" by Preston Cook, in the Spring 2012 issue of Classic Trains Magazine (NOT Classic Toy Trains).

I highly recommend that article to anyone interested in the PRR S2.  Mr. Cook has a unique combination of familiarity with the marine turbines on which the S2 was based as well as deep knowledge of the state of diesel locomotive development at the time. 

While the control system of the S2 was very ingenious the part load and starting characteristics of the steam turbine are very unsuitable for locomotive application.  Both Baldwin and the Pennsy should have known better than to ever build the S2.

Of course the same could be said of the S1, T1 and Qs as well.

Sent for the issue and read it with much interest.  In the article, there were two designs for a sort of transmission.  The idea was to make maximum use of the turbine at different speeds.  Both designs were patented.  I need to re-rerad that section to see if they were actually incorporated in the final build.  

It's also interesting to note the popularity of the Lionel turbine.  Right from the get-go, they were great sellers.  I've seen the scale version Lionel made.  A bit too pricey for me however.  

The 1:1 scale locomotive was indeed huge.  Just look at it's streamlined tender in front of some passenger cars.  

In order to approach the efficiency of a diesel, a steam locomotive would have to:

1) Operate at much higher temperatures and pressures than a conventional steam locomotive.

2) Add a condenser to recycle the exhaust steam and reduce the waste of energy due to exhausting into the atmosphere.

Neither of these was practical in a locomotive and neither was done on the S2. Slightly Increasing the efficiency of the expander (turbine in this case, piston/cylinder conventionally) was not sufficient to improve overall thermal efficiency (fuel economy) to that of a diesel.

MELGAR

I'll bet a bunch of PRR engineers were sitting around pounding some Scotch and one of them dared the other to try and pull it off. Pure alpha beast engineering, that's all. Now they'd all be sent in for sensitivity training and issued pink Priuses and high heels for hurting everyone's feelings.

Not to change the subject... Say what you will about Priuses, but they are brilliant engineering. Maybe not for everyone but I like averaging 60 miles-per-gallon.

MELGAR

MELGAR posted:

Maybe not for everyone but I like averaging 60 miles-per-gallon.

MELGAR

But they can hardly get out of their own way.  I know so many truckers who are afraid of one pulling out of in front of them, and either crushing it, or causing them to jack knife trying to slow down too quickly.

Berniemobile get out of the left lane! 

Norm - you have a problem with pink Priuses and high heels ??  Just kidding.  The S2 gave the guys in engineering something to do during the war.  Put a turbine in a tank and call it the "Abrams" although he was a lowly Colonel then.

We went from S2s, Duplexes, Challengers and Big Boys to glorified golf carts getting in everyone's way. The absolute state of modern engineering - bah!

jim pastorius posted:

Norm - you have a problem with pink Priuses and high heels ??  Just kidding.  The S2 gave the guys in engineering something to do during the war.  Put a turbine in a tank and call it the "Abrams" although he was a lowly Colonel then.

No, no, not really but I bet the S2 was done on a dare. Just some dudes saying "I bet", right? Now we gotta beg for permission and talk about 'efficiency' (displaced consumption).

The thread got me re-interested in this locomotive and the attempts to apply steam turbines to the railroad.  Below is list of resources about the S2 locomotive in chronological order that I have in my collection (yes I like trains!).  The best two sources for the overall information are preceded with asterisks and are readily available.  Sorry, but the PRR S2 locomotive was not some flippant bet over a beer to keep the engineering boys busy during the war. 

The genesis of the S2 for the PRR started in late 1940, with general inspiration coming from the British LMS direct drive steam turbine locomotive #6202.  The intent was to limit the change in technology to the turbine and direct drive gearing only, while keeping coal as the fuel of choice.   This was done to avoid additional experimental aspects later found in the C&O and N&W locomotives such as a high pressure water tube boiler, condensers, or electric generation / drive equipment.  Sadly, this didn’t work out as intended, and the traditional locomotive boiler was the main cause for the S2’s failure.  No doubt that the various mechanical issues could have been overcome to make the S2 a reliable performer, but there wasn’t enough time or money available as the PRR was beginning to lose money after WW2.  This coupled with the fact that the direct drive steam locomotive did not offer a radical leap in performance.  Hindsight is always 20/20.

PRR S2 Resources

“Steam Turbine Locomotive”, Baldwin (Magazine), Vol. 1 No. 4, Fourth Quarter, 1944.

“The Pennsylvania Geared Turbine Locomotive” by J.S. Newton and W.A. Brecht, Railway Mechanical Engineer, March, 1945.  (Reprinted in Train Shed Cyclopedia No. 56)

“The Geared-Turbine Steam Locomotive: Its Purpose” by Charles Kerr, Jr., Westinghouse Engineer, March, 1945.

“The Geared-Turbine Steam Locomotive: How It Works” by J.S. Newton and W.A. Brecht, Westinghouse Engineer, March, 1945.

“The Pennsylvania Centenary”, Baldwin (Magazine), Vol. 3 No. 2, Second Quarter, 1946.

1947 Locomotive Cyclopedia of American Practice, 13^th Edition, Simmons-Boardmann Publishing Corp., 1947.

 “Pennsy Steam: A to T” by Paul Carleton, D. Carleton Railbooks, 1989.

“Pennsy Steam: A Second Look” by Paul Carleton, D. Carleton Railbooks, 1991.

 “Turbine Power” by David Jackson, The Keystone, Vol. 28 No. 2, Summer, 1995.

“Black Gold – Black Diamonds: The PRR and Dieselization” Vol. 1, by Erik Hirsimaki, Mileposts Publishing Co, 1997.

“Turbines: King Coal Battles the Diesel” by Erik Hirsimaki, Classic Trains, Vol. 5 No. 3, Fall, 2004.

**“Battleship of the Rails” by Preston Cook, Classic Trains, Vol. 12 No. 1, Fall, 2012.

**“The Trials and Tribulations of #6200” by Neil Burnell, The Keystone, Vol. 45 No. 3, Spring, 2013. (Includes six separate fold out elevation and sectional drawings of the S2 locomotive and tender)

The Ljungström steam turbine locomotives, letter by Christer Kedström, The Keystone, Vol. 46 No. 1, Spring, 2013.

“Thoughts on Neil Burnell’s S2 Article” by David Evans, The Keystone, Vol. 46 No. 1, Spring, 2013.

“Problems with the Operation of the S2” by David E. Slee, The Keystone, Vol. 46 No. 1, Spring, 2013.