Pennsylvania J1A Whistle Follow Up

A.J. posted:

Katie advised me that the engineers at Lionel advised that the whistle used on the J1A is the Pennsylvania Banshee Whistle and that is the most prototypical whistle to be used on that engine. 

Respectfully, the engineers at Lionel don't know what they're talking about.  There is plenty of information available, including audio recordings made of the real thing, that show the prototypical whistle for the J1/J1a is the 3-chime PRR "passenger" whistle.

The information on the link below directly pertains to this point.

http://www.columbusrailroads.c...=55Sights_%26_Sounds

Besides the audio recordings on the above site, quoting in part from the text:

"Banshee whistles were once common on all H, I1, L1, N, A, B, C, and CC2 class locomotives. Post war many engines had these replaced with the 3-chime "K4" type whistle."

"The wistful, haunting PRR 3-chime passenger whistle says “Pennsy” more than any other sound in railroading. Made in PRR’s own shops, the round-topped whistle sounded the notes of E-G-B, a minor triad. This whistle was standard equipment on passenger power from about 1875 through the end of steam. It was used on all modern power, including M1, J1, Q2 and T1. As engines were retired, their “K4” whistle was often used to replace the high-pitched “banshee” on older freight power."

There is really no excuse for a model manufacturer to make an error like this, at least on PRR equipment.  The Pennsylvania Railroad Technical and Historical Society has a modeling committee that is ready and eager to help provide information and support to any model train manufacturer.  I know that they regularly work with several HO companies.

So glad I didn't order that engine. Was tempted. Sad!

Also, I was told I was the only one who called on the issue thus far so if anyone else was like me and ordered it and are not satisfied give Lionel a call.  Maybe if more people raise the issue they will be more likely to provide change.  I would assume that in the grand scheme of things changing the sound file on an engine wouldn't be the most difficult thing to do.  

Wonder if all four PRR J1as have the same sounds...I suppose we only heard the 6434. 

Since the same crack Lionel engineers were involved, I'll bet they all sound equally prototypical. 

I posted this on the other whistle thread. An actual J1a whistle at the 1:11 mark:  https://youtu.be/3jdz2An_9t4

How bold of Lionel to say they know better, yet foolish when its so easy to find the correct one.

Between the variety of out of the box  issues, and now the attitude. They saved me a ton of money by convincing me to cancel my preorders.

On a side note. Ironically , they got it right on the B&LE version..... go figure

Go to 10:38  https://youtu.be/dW50AUk6264

765 wearing 643's whistle  https://youtu.be/EKAXPC4KlaU

I wanna hear from the guy with the mismatched polar express cars, what BS line they gonna give him

I'm trying to be a little positive as I have one of the J3a Hudsons on order. I mean hey, it's a Hudson right? They've done them once or twice. 

Norm, I got the Hudson on BTO as well.  I'm done with BTO, Ill wait until I see a product review or youtube clip before I commit $1400 again.  

Bob posted:

A.J. posted:

Katie advised me that the engineers at Lionel advised that the whistle used on the J1A is the Pennsylvania Banshee Whistle and that is the most prototypical whistle to be used on that engine. 

Respectfully, the engineers at Lionel don't know what they're talking about.  There is plenty of information available, including audio recordings made of the real thing, that show the prototypical whistle for the J1/J1a is the 3-chime PRR "passenger" whistle.

The information on the link below directly pertains to this point.

http://www.columbusrailroads.c...=55Sights_%26_Sounds

Besides the audio recordings on the above site, quoting in part from the text:

"Banshee whistles were once common on all H, I1, L1, N, A, B, C, and CC2 class locomotives. Post war many engines had these replaced with the 3-chime "K4" type whistle."

"The wistful, haunting PRR 3-chime passenger whistle says “Pennsy” more than any other sound in railroading. Made in PRR’s own shops, the round-topped whistle sounded the notes of E-G-B, a minor triad. This whistle was standard equipment on passenger power from about 1875 through the end of steam. It was used on all modern power, including M1, J1, Q2 and T1. As engines were retired, their “K4” whistle was often used to replace the high-pitched “banshee” on older freight power."

There is really no excuse for a model manufacturer to make an error like this, at least on PRR equipment.  The Pennsylvania Railroad Technical and Historical Society has a modeling committee that is ready and eager to help provide information and support to any model train manufacturer.  I know that they regularly work with several HO companies.

Hi Bob,

For what its worth.....

Whenever I did a sound system for Right of Way I made sure the whistle matched the locomotive.  For the T1 I found a whistle collector who set up a J1 whistle for me to record.  Maybe I need to go find that tape.

Lou N

It's the exact whistle they used on the H-10. What are they talking about?

They are delusional.  If it's right, why does last release have a different whistle?   Pass the crack this way Lionel.

I need RAs for three H10 engines whistle board revisions. The return and then return shipping is more than the three speakers I asked for.  I am still waiting for RAs.  Lionel is very busy.  It could be next year, well after my warranty expires.

If I had a dollar for every time I was told "I was the only one to call with a specific issue", I'd be a millionaire.  This is the oldest dodge used in many businesses.

Hey, It's only you …. Now go away.

Does anyone know if Lionel is like MTH where changing the whistle can be changed by changing the sound file? 

Wow I was hoping they would fix it! More people need to call in maybe change their mind or maybe they don’t know which whistles are even in their 2-10-4. Something could have changed over seas

This is my PRR Legacy Texas Class from 2011.  Is this the same locomotive in question for comparison from then to now?

Talking about new version that was just released but yes otherwise same

Jason gartner posted:

Talking about new version that was just released but yes otherwise same

Yes I know we are talking about the other one but for comparison of the whistles.

A.J. posted:

Does anyone know if Lionel is like MTH where changing the whistle can be changed by changing the sound file? 

Don't believe it can be done without changing the chip.

MartyE posted:

This is my PRR Legacy Texas Class from 2011.  Is this the same locomotive in question for comparison from then to now?

 

Marty,

Looks nice. Does it always start with the steam chest smoke? Does it have the same sound sequence like MTH where you hear the valves being open and then the chuff? Some here mention there is silence and then the chuffing begins? Or did I misunderstand? Thx!

Seems like Lionel is all smoke and no whistle these days. 

A good and proper whistle really sets up a steam engine right. There are some decent models I have that I can't stand to run just because of the whistles that are hard coded into the works.

I really have to agree with Norm. Smoke and features are nice and all, but the whistle for me is a make-or-break factor for steam in models today. The 587 from 2017 was an instant buy because of the awesome whistle, but I passed on the 2016 GS4's when they didn't have the same whistle as the 2008 model.

The 2011 model of the J1a sounds MUCH more appropriate than the 2019 version. 

...and the 2001 version still sounds the best....

A.J. posted:

Norm, I got the Hudson on BTO as well.  I'm done with BTO, Ill wait until I see a product review or youtube clip before I commit $1400 again.  

Agreed. No more BTO. Lionel's attention to the details (color, sounds, quality of assembly, QC, etc.) has lapsed badly. But, I will go a step further. Going forward, nothing cataloged in the future by Lionel will be purchased by me if it is to be made in mainland China. I do not wish to send any more of my money there if I can possibly help it.

Respectfully,

Bob

Question:  If they can change the Vision Line Challenger Sound, why can't they change the Pennsylvania J1A?

I'm thinking … still thinking ,,,  getting a headache … I give up.  I really can't think of a reason.  After all, they have four technicians and a sound guy.  

Perhaps Lionel accounting is getting all the shipping bills from the RAs that they already sent out.   … And the bills for the return shipping costs.  Now let's talk technician time cost. 

I know my accountant,  Cha Ching, would not be pleased.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

John I thought the same thing.  I figured it wouldn't be a big deal to change (minus shipping costs), but I was wrong apparently.  

I still can't believe you cannot customize anything about Legacy sounds and controls without having to resort to dealing with their service department. Think of all the money they could save in service calls if they even encoded a few whistle choices. At least with TMCC you could pop in a new sound ROM. I think Legacy is just about completely dead at this point. It has really nice motor control but it's not much better than aftermarket ERR stuff. It's just bizarre that you can't upload different sounds and control features to your new engine in this pretty much post-tech era. Their stuff is like a throwback compared to DCC. 3 rail used to have a bit of an edge with easy to set up and use command control stuff but now it's just corny.

Oh, and I probably shouldn't even bother to mention that the J1as had cast iron/steel (not bronze) bells and I doubt any of the Legacy J1as got the TMCC J1a bell sound. 

All this discussion makes me all that much happier that my Sunset 2 rail version has no sound or special features to fail. 

In all seriousness, I may put DCC and a sound system in it.  The benefit will be that most DCC boards allow you choose your sound files.

I have two MTH J-1's;  20-3171 Proto 2, and 20-3459  Proto 3.  I don't have a clue what whistle they have.  Since it is going to rain all day and the MLB playoffs don't come on 'til 5, I think I'll get them out of storage to find out.

Norm Charbonneau posted:

 Think of all the money they could save in service calls if they even encoded a few whistle choices. 

Think of all the money they could save if the just did it right the first time. Especially since they had it right the "last time".

This goes for paint, gearboxes, programming. ......etc etc as well

Norm Charbonneau posted:

I'm trying to be a little positive as I have one of the J3a Hudsons on order. I mean hey, it's a Hudson right? They've done them once or twice. 

One would think that the sound files from the Vision Line NYC J1e would suffice for the new J3a's. Going further back in time, the whistle in the TMCC 773's and the last J3a is really quite good. So at least the files and the where with all are there if someone is minding the store.   I confess to some nervousness, too, about the state with which those new NYC J3a's might show up.

Bob

From what I can gleam from this thread, my two MTH J-1's have the three chime whistle similar to my K-4, only louder.  The Proto 2 unit has the red cab roof while the Proto 3 unit is all black.  The Proto 3 unit is running a little balky, probably needs a lube job.  Well, it's still raining.....

I can't look at the MTH ones for too long before that rear driver tucked into the firebox drives me bonkers. As for the 3rd Rail, I see them from time to time for cheap money but have been avoiding them after helping a pal fix his slipped drivers. Not sure if that's common to those models but it's never happened to any of my other 3rd Rails.

Norm Charbonneau posted:

I can't look at the MTH ones for too long before that rear driver tucked into the firebox drives me bonkers.

Me too Norm. That's the first thing I see.

I’d rather look at those drivers than have a Thomas the tank engine whistle!! All kidding aside maybe Lionel in future could make their engines able for us to change sound files like on mth and dcc. 

Problem solved fellas! 

https://www.lionel.com/product...rain-whistle-7-11076

/thread

I don't know, but maybe there are legal issues we are unaware of that prevents Lionel from implementing downloaded sound files.  But it could be that Lionel just doesn't want to setup and maintain the necessary hardware and software to support that functionality.

The closer it gets to delivery of the J3a engines, the more fear, uncertainty, and doubt, enters the equation for me.