Phase two Lionel ZW-L together

I think you have the idea.  I'm pretty sure the only way you can end up with the ZW-Ls phased against one another would be if they were plugged into different outlets that happened to be on the opposite half of the circuit breaker box.

-Dave

Dave,

Thank you for the reply.  I tried to put the ZW-L in the "extension" room plugged into the wall but we would get sparks when the engine crossed the tracks.

If for some reason we can't use the same outlet on the wall that the first ZW-L is plugged into:

Can I phase separate channels together by adding a ground wire between the U channel on the ZW-L's that power each block?

gmach5 posted:

We have a pretty large layout.  One side is 18 x 30 and we have added an extension that is 15 x 17.  We use a ZW-L to power the 18 x 30 side.  We are getting ready to add another ZW-L to the extension .  I would like to phase the ZW-L's together so we do not get a spark when entering the extension.  The 18 x 30 and the extension are blocked with an insulator pin (Atlas O Track).  

We are using all 4 channels on the ZW-L on the 18 x 30.  Each channel powers a block.  The blocks are Main Yard, Inside Main, Outside Maine and Extra Yard.  I would like to phase the Outside Main and the Extension with the new ZW-L.

Can you phase separate channels together by adding a ground wire between the U channel on the ZW-L's that power each block?

Also, would the transformers be in phase if they were plugged into the same outlet and run wires to a terminal block in the extension?

Thank you!

George

To paraphrase that star Trek guy "God man, how much equipment are you running?" 

Is all this equipment being run conventional? In any case, wouldn't the easiest way to accomplish what you want be just plugging both transformers into the same power strip?

We are running Legacy and DCS.  Plugging both transformers into the same power strip would be the way to go but I'm not sure if we can do that because of how far the extension is away from the main layout.

I'm trying to find out if we can phase two channels together from one ZW-L to the other ZW-L.  For example the channel that is sending power to the Main Yard, and the channel that will power the extension channel? Can I phase these two together?

Thank you!

George

gmach5 posted:

We are running Legacy and DCS.  Plugging both transformers into the same power strip would be the way to go but I'm not sure if we can do that because of how far the extension is away from the main layout.

Thank you!

George

 

 

Just test with an extension cord or install longer, heavier gauge power wires? That also places your transformer on/off at one location.

I got tired of power issues (i.e., lack thereof) on my layout.

LOL!!!!  Why? I have a double decker 30 x30 layout 4 main lines. Two yards.  One ZWL is fine 

First - you need to have a common ground connection between the two ZW-Ls. All the U outputs on the ZW-L are bussed together inside the ZW-L. So you connect a wire from any U of one ZW-L to any U of the other ZW-L. On my layout, I have a bus bar that has about 10 screw connection terminals, and I use this bus bar to create a common ground point - so transformers' U to bus bar, bus bar to track outside rail.

Second, if you are not sure of how your train room is wired back at the circuit breaker box, I would have a power strip that I plug one ZW-L into, then use an extension cord to get from this power strip to the other, distant (from the power strip) ZW-L.

In the more info that you need department - ZW-Ls have a three prong plug for AC, thus the are pre-phased, and leave the manufacturer with the same phasing. You can not reverse the plug, thus you can not change the phasing. By the nature of how the AC power is distributed by the Power Company and your house wiring, you end up with one 110v source that is 180degrees out of phase with the other 110v source. One outlet in you large room could have one 110v source, and another outlet have the 180degree out of phase power. Plugging one ZW-L into one source and a second ZW-L in the 180degree out of phase outlet results in the ZW-Ls being out of phase, and you can only correct the phasing by plugging both ZW-Ls into the same outlet - thus the need of a power strip to an outlet, one ZW-L into the power strip, and the second ZW-L plugged into the power strip via an extension cord.

My layout has 2 ZW-L's  for track power and an assortment of other power supplies for AC and DC accessories. The 2 ZW-L's do not need to be plugged into the same outlet but both outlets if 2 are used must be supplied from breakers on the same leg of the breaker panel. It should be possible to find outlets on the same leg (phase.) If not just run a 12gauge extension cord to the second transformer from the outlet. The ZW-L only draws about 6A so the voltage drop through a 50 ft 12 ga extension cord is not an issue.

A lot of statements above are circumstantial. 

I.e. in the end, yes; ANY two transformers must be in phase.
The outlets being different involve checking that phase relationship too...or a lot of trust in what's there....I'd just check. (especially with industrial/business/480/240/120 panels, mixing outlet plugs can be a real bad idea)

 Your home outlet/wire/breaker; 15a or more or move to another plug for one,another breaker if its 10a-12a(no 15a outlets on 10a breakers ). (amp often printed in the cover slot by the outlet cover screw)
You're outlets have to be ground wired properly for lionel command control to "broadcast" properly. To snake around that you need to run it into the roomas an antenna.(that really should be earth grounded for saftey.)

Checking on a normal outlet, then checking again on separate outlets gives you a tested answer (or use a GOOD storebought plug tester)

You should always check it . (youtube video by lionel " phasing of two transformers to be used together and why" at a step towards understanding more vs get-r-done once)
Yes, you would tie the common U; and insure shared common bus runs can handle totaled amps from both if both draw from that point.
A wall outlet power strip with a good breaker and off switch is used on all but one of my 7 layouts....that one has a timer 😴

Cheap power strips can also be a cause of phasing issues, folks have found some outlets to be out of phase on occasion, usually on side by side ,dual bank outlet strips. (That said, my heaviest is a dual bank audio special with it's own set of internal tvs to boot)

MED posted:

First - you need to have a common ground connection between the two ZW-Ls. All the U outputs on the ZW-L are bussed together inside the ZW-L. So you connect a wire from any U of one ZW-L to any U of the other ZW-L. On my layout, I have a bus bar that has about 10 screw connection terminals, and I use this bus bar to create a common ground point - so transformers' U to bus bar, bus bar to track outside rail.

Second, if you are not sure of how your train room is wired back at the circuit breaker box, I would have a power strip that I plug one ZW-L into, then use an extension cord to get from this power strip to the other, distant (from the power strip) ZW-L.

In the more info that you need department - ZW-Ls have a three prong plug for AC, thus the are pre-phased, and leave the manufacturer with the same phasing. You can not reverse the plug, thus you can not change the phasing. By the nature of how the AC power is distributed by the Power Company and your house wiring, you end up with one 110v source that is 180degrees out of phase with the other 110v source. One outlet in you large room could have one 110v source, and another outlet have the 180degree out of phase power. Plugging one ZW-L into one source and a second ZW-L in the 180degree out of phase outlet results in the ZW-Ls being out of phase, and you can only correct the phasing by plugging both ZW-Ls into the same outlet - thus the need of a power strip to an outlet, one ZW-L into the power strip, and the second ZW-L plugged into the power strip via an extension cord.

My ZWL does not have a three prong plug, only two, but does have the polarized plug, one larger than the other.  Do they have 3 prong plugs now.  

Just curious.

Isolated transformers and power tools, etc. that don't have a metal or conductive surface on them exposed can forgo the ground pin. There's no place to hook it up in the device. But they do phase the plug, and mostly so that the hot lead on the line cord is the one that is switched off in the device.

Tony H posted

My ZWL does not have a three prong plug, only two, but does have the polarized plug, one larger than the other.  Do they have 3 prong plugs now.  

Just curious.

I don't believe any have 3 prong plugs.

My bad - I apologize about stating that the ZW-L has a three prong plug - did so without checking. But the two prong plug with on large spade sets a factory polarization as does my mis-stated three prong plug - so my advice still stands, use an extension cord (an extension cord that has three prong plug or two prong with one large spade) to guarantee the two ZW-Ls are plugged into the same phase of 110v power.

Thank you Med, BobbyD, Adriatic, AMFlyer and Dave45681 for your kind responses.  It's very nice to know that all of the U's in the ZW-L are tied together.  Hopefully, that will make this pretty simple.

Thank you!

George