.

Thanks for the photos Dave. It is difficult to see whether they got close to PRR freight car color, but first glance is encouraging. Wonder if a John got to see them up close?

 

Thanks for posting these photos, Dave.  I have the Lehigh Valley 2-pack on pre-order.  Looks like they are very nicely detailed. 

I was hoping that with the introduction of these hoppers Lionel would finally move away from the awful-looking molded plastic coal loads.  Such highly-detailed cars deserve better!!  Looks like I will have to continue to dress them up with real coal.

Does this mean they are actually available? Glory be!!

I like those C&O units.......But have all the hoppers I need.....and they cost too much compared to Weaver hoppers......but very nice looking for sure!

Dear List,

    I also went over to see the GLa prototype and both of the paint samples appeared to be accurate. I will leave the other issues,if any, to the SPF's that have a higher pay grade than I. 

John

The new Lionel Gla looks a little taller than prototype.   It could be the way it sits on the trucks to clear the high rail flanges, or it could be they compromised the body dimensions to share tooling with the USRA twin hoppers.  PRR Gla's were noticably lower than USRA twin hoppers.  When I get one I'll check the dimensions against the prototype and report back.  The "freight car color" is a big improvement over that on Lionel X31's and N5c's.

 

Ed Rappe

 

 

I hope they will have the correct friction bearing journal boxes and not what is shown in the pic which appears to be roller bearing wheelsets. Also on the PRR model, are the trucks set too far in?

 

 

 

and what would be the difference between the Atlas O/ intermountain models compared to these?

the USRA car which was down by Intermountain/Atlas, does not have the "porch" at each end.   That is the end beam across the car on the USRA car is flush with the end of the car.    On the PRR GLa it protrudes some and forms a small "porch" as shown in the photos.   this is similar to the PRR H21/25 cars.

 

The side ribs on the PRR car are tapered in at the top and bottom which is typical of most PRR coal hoppers.   The USRA side ribs are not tapered.   

 

Then there are a bunch of small differences including a "gusset" on end of the side sheet near the hoppers.   The GLa has a straight vertical side panel, the USRA and an angled section of the side panel pointing toward the end of the car.    The truck spacing is slightly different and the height is slightly different, but these are probably not noticable easily.

 

Below is the USRA car, note the gusset and flush end beams.

 

 

I thought something looked odd about thr relative location of the trucks to the end sill - good catch,  Also note there should be a cut out in the end sill for the draft gear pocket.  That means that the new Kadee mounts will be too low relative to the body compounding the problem caused by the body being mounted high above the trucks.  Perhaps we can term it a "high water hopper"  .  

I had hoped to round out my hopper fleet with some lower cost scale dimensioned GLa's but these Lionel's may miss the visual acceptance mark when coupled in a string of properly scaled Yoder and PSC Gla's.  I'm going to buy one and see what fixes can be made with a reasonable amount of work.

 

Ed Eappe

Thanks for the input. Now I will have to dig out my Teichmueller book and find out if I have too many USRA's to GLa ratios. I already know I have too many 2 bay hoppers instead of the multitude of 4 bay hoppers.

All of us should have zero or at most one PRR USRA 2-bay hopper.  The real PRR only had 300 of them as compared to over 25000 GLa's and over 35000 H21's.

 

I am very guilty since I have 8 of the exquisite Atlas USRA's.  But then, I have an extra rail in the track, too! 

Pennsy had a class of fishbelly 2-bays calledc GLc that they had quite a few of also and modernized them.   I think more than 20,000.   Teichmiller's book would tell us.

 

As for USRAs, I have too many PRR ones also.   But a friend of mine said that "even though they only had 300, it seems that there are one or two in every photo of hoppers you see".

 

It does seem that the trucks are too close to the center in the photo.   We shall see. I have a set of 3 on order to convert to 2 rail.

The reason the PRR only had a handful of USRA class Gld twin hoppers is that theywere transferred to the mother road from the LIRR sometime in 1920's.  I believe PENNSYLVANIA LINES is a fantasy scheme on a Gld twin as by the time the LIRR transferred the USRA fleet to the PRR that scheme was no longer in use.was no longer used.

 

Ed Rappe

prrhorseshoe curve said:

I already know I have too many 2 bay hoppers instead of the multitude of 4 bay hoppers.

Depends on what your collection is. For the October 1952 date (my modeling cutoff), there were14813 Class HT (3- or 4-bay) hopper cars of all types  and13459 Class HM (2-bay) hopper cars of all types, e.g. roughly equal numbers according to

http://prr.railfan.net/freight...r=APR52&sort=num

 

Comparing the Gla and H31 cars (from the PRRTHS site):

 

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N

The Gla car sides should be about 8" lower than the USRA (H31) sides. Looking at the photos of the "Gla" posted, I have the sinking feeling that Lionel grafted modified Gla ends onto a USRA car body The trucks are also inset too far; the outer wheel should almost reach to the end of the car. The car sits too high. I suspect that a common underframe was used for the USRA car and the "Gla." Both errors are no doubt due to the large tinplate flanges.

If the "Gla" car body were correct I could bash the underframe and trucks to fix errors. If the carbody sides are from the USRA car, I'd rather bash an Intermountain car and make my own ends (or, do a 3D project for the ends).

I'll wait until someone spills their hard-earned hobby money on a Lionel car to get a better evaluation of the new model.

 

 

For the October 1952 date (my modeling cutoff), there were14813 Class HT (3- or 4-bay) hopper cars of all types.

Better check your math.  The source you cited for April 52 lists a block of 21,324 class H21A/B/E/G 4-bay hoppers numbered between 173625 and 197740 and other blocks of the same H21 classes containing 3,983 cars, 4,007 cars, 1,886 cars and 1,557 cars.  There are also several other smaller groups of H21's listed.

 

Also, like Ed R says above, the USRA hopper was class GLd.  The H31's were a different car.

One note the OP didn't mention is that Lionel also put Kadee mounting holes in place. Also, the frame is die cast, while the superstructure is plastic for additional weight. The weight felt good when I picked up the production sample. Can't vouch for the specific details as I could not even pass the SPF academy entrance exams, though I did salute when I passed the Strasburg Museum.

hey Matt, if you can identify a Belpaire firebox, you can become an SPF private first class!!

The reason the PRR only had a handful of USRA class Gld twin hoppers is that theywere transferred to the mother road from the LIRR sometime in 1920's.  I believe PENNSYLVANIA LINES is a fantasy scheme on a Gld twin as by the time the LIRR transferred the USRA fleet to the PRR that scheme was no longer in use.was no longer used.

 

Ed Rappe

Rex - The PRR H31 twin hopper was not a USRA design, but a 1940's PRR unique design.  The small number of USRA cars transferred to the PRR by the LIRR after WWI became PRR class Gld.  You are correct that the H31 and related WWIiI war emergency H31a and H31b composite cars were several inches taller than the older design Glc.  When I get back home I'll post  pictures of the some of the scale dimensioned PRR prototype twin hoppers previously produced in O scale - Gla, Glc, Glca,  H31' H31a, H31b, and H31c.

 

Ed Rappe

The Teichmoeller book is an excellent reference for this.

 

I believe it's safe to say that the decrease in numbers of "2 bay" (two pocket) 50 ton hoppers and the increase in 70 and 100 ton hoppers has to do with the use of the coal.

 

The 50/55 ton two pocket cars were in their heyday when coal was popular as a home heating fuel.  The 70 and 100 ton cars were used for metallurgical coal (to steel mills for coke) and for steam coal at large power plants.

 

Thus the shift away from the lesser capacity cars to the 70 and 100 ton cars and the reason that 50/55 ton hoppers are no longer seen.

Poor Lionel.  They probably thought everyone would be happy/happy if they got the color right ( I meant close)....... Oh well

I'm not so sure the truck centers are too far inboard. This photo (courtesy of Bill's Pennsy Photos) shows the truck location pretty close to the Lionel model. The PRR equipment tracings on Rob Schoenberg's site of the Gla shows a 5'-0" distance from end sill to truck enter.

 

If the Lionel truck center is not accurate, it seems to be pretty close.

 

 

I can do that! I also consider February 1, 1968 as a date that will live in infamy.

It would appear from the photo of the prototype that Chris posted that the truck center aligns with the first rib.  That does not seem the case with the Lionel car.

I look forward seeing and reading Ed's findings when one is in his hands.

Mr Burke,

They did get the color correct. They put it in a blue and orange box. Cheers.

Well Guys,

 

Other than the color being "better", there are several things about this car that make it questionable. I will have to qualify my remarks by stating I have not seen the actual model, just the photographs of same on this site.

 

The car appears to sit way too high, possibly because of the 3-rail truck/coupler clearance arrangement.

The trucks appear to be roller bearing, not friction.

The end side stakes should line up with the centerline of the truck/bolster.

The next side stake should have a staggered rivet pattern, not paired like the others.

All side stakes should be tapered at the top and the bottom.

The lettering arrangement/style indicates a mid-50's paint scheme.

There are probably others things as well, but not having seen the actual model, I'll stop here.

 

Some of this stuff can be corrected, but the amount of time and energy, to do so, might outweigh the cost of the car(s).

Have fun.

 

Buzz

 

 

It appears in this photo that was posted above that the PRR hopper on the top shelf may have the correct friction bearing trucks.

 

The placement of the trucks on the top hopper also lokks to be further out when comparing it to the one in the middle.

 

The friction bearing journal of the truck actually goes behind the lower rung of the ladder a bit. The roller bearing version in the middle isn't even close.

 

This may be a case of them "throwing together some samples" for display, not unlike the less than stellar soundset that the VL bigboy had for demo.

 

Its not to say there won't be any errors, just that whats in the photo aside from possibly the hopper body may no be  "actual production" accurate.

 

Any news or updates?

I'm wondering if there is not a little distortion in the photo from getting so close that is causing the trucks to look out of place.    Just a thought.    I know if I use a real wide angle lens on my camera and get in real close, the sides of the photos are distorted.

There are pictures of the underside and Kadee mounting holes in this link.

 

https://ogrforum.com/t...88#41835035220093988

 

The truck is mounted inline with the first side post.

 

Jan

I received my shadow keystone set on Friday and have begun to compare one with my Atlas O GLd (USRA) car as well as compare it to my PRR lettering arrangement guide.  Note both my models are 3R but will eventually convert to 2R.  Ride height is about the same in 3R so not 8" lower in scale.  However, I measured several key dimensions and they are close or spot on so believe the ride height issue is related to the trucks and bolster which should be correctable at quick glance.

 

Initial observations:

 

PROS - Interior hopper bay detail (rivet pattern, bracing, etc) is even nicer than the Atlas O GLd; looks to be spot on; including splice sheet intervals, etc.  Truck centers are correct.  Hand grabs correct and most rivet patterns correct.  Side stake taper correct.  Lettering set up correctly in terms of location and font size.  Freight car color seems reasonable but I am not a good judge since prototypical PRR FCC changed with time and due to oxidation.  I don't have a set of PRR drift cards.  Color is a little more red than Atlas model.

 

CONS - Exterior side mounting bracket for air brake reservoir is missing (correct on Atlas H21), Lettering is decent except for Shadow Keystone stencil is very slightly smaller than prototype, PENNSYLVANIA roadname font style is not exactly correct relative to prototype; especially for N's and Y and number font style is a little off too, light weight is a few thousand pounds too low, repack date is 1941 which is way too dated for a car repainted in 1955, stirrups are slightly positioned wrong to accommodate mounting for a model, and the most obvious flaw is the ugly and way too big roping staples.  The roping staples can be replaced though and lt wt stencil can be fixed.

 

All in all, I can live with these cars since I want 12 cars to add to other 2-bay cars for a unit train and their price is reasonable and they are more readily available than a more costly brass option.

 

Bob

What are rope staples? Thanks, Sam