I think a lot of terms we use are regional or from times past. I thank you for the history lesson. I wonder if railroads borrowed the term pilot from ships, when they needed a pilot onboard for unfamiliar waters. I drove truck in Detroit for years and all the truck terminals where known as barns and we still call our semi tractors a horse. We where even told by dispatch at the end of the day to put our trailer up to the dock and put our horse to bed. Nickname for trailers is still wagon. Yes I am a retired Teamster but never drove a horse team. 

Rob,

 

Alfred Bruce, in his book, "The Steam Locomotive in America", used the term "engine truck".  He did not use "pilot truck".

 

ChipR

Chip,

Not arguing "engine truck" is wrong, just that "pilot truck" is not  term made up by railfans or modelers.  Here is evidence fr 1897

http://books.google.com/books?...&ved=0CGgQ6AEwBw

Well here are some English definitions .As a verb: to act as a guide to lead or conduct over a difficult course. As an adjective: serving as a guiding device. My favorite, as a noun: a guide or leader, a cowcatcher (LOL ), a piece that guides a tool or machinery. Cowcatcher is a local term where as the real name for that piece of the loco is known as the PILOT. "The front truck PILOTS the engine through the curves and switches."  I'm not suggesting we rename it the "FRONT TRUCK." It is the pilot truck.      148th

I have heard "lead(ing) truck", but I do not know how "official" it is.

We call the lead truck on the 765 the "Pony Truck." The term "Pilot Truck" is equally correct. The truck at the rear of the locomotive under the cab is called the "Trailing Truck." Both terms describe their location on the locomotive.

 

"Engine  Truck" is a meaningless term. First of all, the "engine" is the cylinders, valves, valve gear, rods and wheels. THAT is what constitutes the "Engine." To refer to a "Locomotive" as an "Engine" is not correct. The "Locomotive" is the machine that carries the "Engine" and the other appliances, such as the boiler, air pumps, etc.

 

The term "Engine Truck" is also a very vague term. WHERE on the locomotive is this "Engine Truck" located? Your guess is as good as mine. Besides being incorrect, the term gives no hint as to its supposed location on the locomotive. Don't use this term.

Finally got time to look through ALL my steam locomotive repair, maintenance, and Locomotive Cyclopedia books.As just ONE example, the ICS "Steam Locomotive Study Course", Volume 1, Section 1., C. "Engine Trucks" (pages 58-88): Definition - "An engine trucks an arrangement of parts consisting of a frame, journal boxes, wheels and axles, placed ahead of the forward driving wheels."     The subject of "engine trucks" continues through page 88.

 

NOT ONE SINGLE technical publication that I have in library, EVER refers to a "pilot truck"! One book, however explains that a single axle "engine truck" is NORMALLY referred to as a "Pony truck".

 

You folks can call it/them what ever you like, but technical publications from as far back as the 1880s, through all the TRAINING/TEACHING courses and really "old head" machinists that I have worked with from the 1930, & 1940s, use the term "engine truck", when they/we were/are "on the job"! 

KD,

 

Any discussion about how things were, what they were called (especially variations by era and/or region) and such fascinates me.

 

This is not an "argument" that needs a "winner." It is a discussion, and one flavored with colors of gray. I know it is in fashion in the US (and across the Internet) to make everything a fight with a winner and loser... and to only speak in absolutes... but I prefer a more "old fashioned" approach where we listen, discuss and - heaven forbid - all learn something and grow as a result.

 

Yeah, I know... I have no future as a news reporter or a politician...

 

:-)

 

Rob

Well then, referring to "old fashioned" teaching and terminology, engine truck is obviously the "most common" for us "Old Guys"!

Question: how does the truck on an older 4-4-0 attach?  Is it simply bolted and sprung, or does it have lateral motion and centering links  like, say, a modern Pacific?

KD, I tend to be a bit idealistic at times. The simple act of discussing a topic like Pony Truck etc online is not a contest. But rather I submit to you as "Tribal Knowledge" because someday we may yet use it.

 

The Net has made good advances and some bad ones too.

 

Bob2 I don't know specifically. It is mounted in a useful way as to bear a portion of the total weight and take the whole assembly to where the track tells to go. I know that rail cars simply rest on the trucks. There is nothing other than gravity holding them together.

According to the book "Catechism of the Locomotive" by Mathias N. Forney (second edition 1905), on page 429 there is an excellent drawing of an engine truck, viewed from the top down. In addition to supporting weight, the engine truck on the "Standard American 4-4-0" also provides lateral force in order "lead the engine" into curves. There is a center bearing in the engine truck bolster, which mates with the center pin on the engine's frame. Through levers and fairly large, curved leaf spring packs, lateral forces are transferred from the engine truck's lateral movement when entering a curve, through the levers, into the center bolster, and then to the frame center pin. Thus, forced lateral movement is provided to the engine frame via. the engine truck, during process of entering curves.

 

Also, NEVER a mention of the word "pilot" in this entire book (revised 1890 edition) of over 700 pages.

I used to work with a very old gentleman who once worked as a mechanic on Seaboard steam engines back in the day.  When I mentioned "crank pins" he corrected me and called them "knuckle pins".  Who knows what they were called on the C&NW, SP or Santa Fe? and what does it matter?  Our hobby is hard enough without getting bogged down in semantics.  Lets just enjoy the hobby and have fun.  It is very interesting to talk to elderly veterans of the steam days and now they are getting fewer and farther between. Maybe some of us have become old veterans without even noticing it.    Odd-d

Odd,

I would say it is more than semantics for some of us. Terminology fascinates me, and it is part of the hobby I enjoy.

This thread is a great example... We have evidence of "engine truck" and "pilot truck" going back over 100 years (with "engine truck" seemingly more common in mechanical journals).

I'd love to know when both phrases developed, and where. Same for "pony truck."

Sometimes with there are clear cut distinctions (don't get me started on "Brunswick Geeen" vs DGLE) while others add character  by region, road or era (caboose/van/buggy/cabin).

Some hobby books (including some "authoritative" volumes from 60 years ago) have contributed so many fallacies into our vernacular/knowledge bank that they are hard to combat now  (Steam Locomotive Cyclopedia I am looking at you!)

We know that "pilot truck" has roots much deeper than our hobby, but no clear etymology.. Yet!

Rob

Just wanted to thank you for starting this topic. Like you I also am fascinated with how this terminology evolved. Another term for caboose is a / crummy /. 

I thought I'd look at a couple of old books I have just to see what they called it, but didn't really find anything in them.

 

I looked in "Practical Railroading Volume 1" from 1913, nothing.  So I searched Google and found "Practical Railroading Volume 2":

 

http://books.google.com/books?...ge&q&f=false

 

There's a search feature so I typed in "truck" and found all the terms I've seen you guys post so far.

For what it is worth, on the Santa Fe where cabooses are waycars the "official" terms on blueprints and in engineering reports are "trucks, engine and trailer".

S. Kip Farrington, Jr in his "The Santa Fe's Big Three" in the text refers to them as "leading" and "rear" trucks.  And he probably did so as they are the most descriptive and easiest understood by the lay reader.

Larry Brasher's "Santa Fe Locomotive Development" mentions both "lead" trucks and the "Santa Fe patent Batz engine truck".  And he uses "trailing truck".

 

Allan

Although I have always used the term "pilot truck" myself, I believe Hotwater is correct in his terminology of "engine truck".  Looking into the dictionary of locomotive terms on page 41 of the 1941 Simmons-Boardman Locomotive Cyclopedia, there is a definition for engine truck that explains its use and indicates that two wheels on the front are sometimes called pony trucks and that the rear truck on the locomotive is called the trailer or trailing truck and that "engine truck" is often restricted to the forward truck.

 

 

Under "P" in fhe definitions section of this book, there is no mention of a pilot truck.  I stand corrected for future mention of pilot trucks.  That's good enough for me.

 

 

As an aside, I had the opportunity to see Hotwater's 3RS layout last week during the Chicago March meet.  His steam locomotive engine terminal is as complete as I have ever seen one on a model railroad.  As a confirmed 2 railer from the beginning I now have a better sense of 3 rail scale.  Very nice work HW!

 

Joe Foehrkolb

Joe,

To be clear, this thread was not started to say "engine truck" is wrong. Please read the original post and follow the links.

There was an assertation that "pilot truck" is a made up term used by modelers and buffs.

Take a look at the links in this thread, there is ample proof available online that shows "pilot truck" being used over 100 years ago in patents and technical manuals.

You can choose to ignore that, but I will not.

If I had to sum this all up in one stentence it would be, "Clear evidence exists of the use of the phrase "pilot truck" from before the era of modelers and railfans; it does not seem to appear as frequently as "engine truck" but is not an invention of hobbyists."

Can we agree on that?

Rob

Well sorry, but I defer to what was TAUGHT to Machinist Apprentices, plus the teachings of the ICS. The day-t0-day terminology of the Machinist craft used "engine truck", as explained to me by my teacher and mentor, the late Willard A. (Bill) Gardner. Bill served his Machinist Apprenticeship at the Altoona Shops of PRR, was a Journeyman Machinist for PRR, and eventually a Mechanical Foreman (all the while obtaining his Bachelor of Mechanical Engineering degree). He left the PRR in about 1947, to go to work for EMD, and retired as Assistant General Service Manager.

 

All the other "on the job old head Machinists" I have ever talked with, worked with, or learned from used the term "engine truck". That's good enough for me.

I give up, Hot Water.

 

I love your modeling, highly respect your knowledge and experience, and would love to buy you a beer/coffee/whatever-you-like and I AGREE that "engine truck" has a long history.

 

On the question of where "pilot truck" originated, we apparently don't see eye to eye... it clearly has some long history -- much longer than for it to be a foamer term. And that was my original point.

 

I rest my case. I respect you too much to turn this into an argument...

 

All the best,

Rob

 

 

Railroad Construction: Theory and Practice

Webb, 1903

"action of a locomotive pilot truck"

http://books.google.com/books?...truck%22&f=false

 

Notes on track: construction and maintenance, Volume 2

By Walter Mason Camp, 1904

"the pilot truck of a locomotive"

http://books.google.com/books?...truck%22&f=false

 

Cyclopedia of civil engineering: a general reference work on ..., Volume 2

 By American Technical Society, 1920

"The number of wheels on both rails of the pilot truck, if any, is placed as the first of three numbers. If there is no pilot truck, the character 0 is used. This is followed by the number of drivers and then by the number of trailing ..."

http://books.google.com/books?...truck%22&f=false

 

Engineering News Record, 1897

"When there is no pilot truck and all the weight is on the drivers, the above formulas apply_directly. The center pin of the pilot truck is a flxed point in the engine frame which must be considered in connection with the rigid base of..."

http://books.google.com/books?...truck%22&f=false

 

Transactions of the American Society of Civil Engineers, Volume 84

 By American Society of Civil Engineers, 1921

"The weight of the engines, the weight on the drivers, the distribution of these weights, and the effect of the wheels of the pilot truck, in a strict analytical sense, all appear to be of some importance. A depression in the track which ..."

http://books.google.com/books?...truck%22&f=false

 

Railway locomotives and cars, Volumes 56-57, 1883

"In a locomotive, the combination of a pilot- truck under the smoke-box, a pair of driving- wheels in front of the longitudinal center of the boiler, between said center and the pilot-truck, and one pair in ..."

http://books.google.com/books?...truck%22&f=false

 

Official gazette of the United States Patent Office, Volume 240, 1907

http://books.google.com/books?...truck%22&f=false

 

Canadian Patent Office, 1889

http://books.google.com/books?...truck%22&f=false

 

Robert,

 

Sure we can agree!  You can call the front truck a pilot truck and everyone will know what you mean.  Like I said, that is what I have always called it.  It makes more sense to me than engine truck but my reference is from 1941 and all of yours are much earlier (1921 at the latest)  Perhaps the term went out of use for some reason.  It really doesn't matter as long as we all know what you are referring to and I think we all do.  However, I do understand Hotwater's position on this and I will call that truck an engine truck when speaking with him.

 

In the year 2012 we have more important things to worry about.

 

Best regards,

 

Joe Foehrkolb

Well, now that that is nailed down,  how about them cowcatchers?