Poor castings from MTH, very disturbing

I believe that I must have been badly cast too. As the years go by I find that I am starting to crumble quite badly. 

"Crumbling" of wheels = Turning back in to metal powders again due to lack of fusion of the metals.Just like an old dried out forgotten cookie in the simplest of terms.

Nicole, my wife said the same thing LOL

I've had problems from MTH, Lionel, and Atlas.

The most recent version of MTH die cast heavyweight Premier passenger trucks.

The Lionel Die Cast cantilever signal bridge practically fell apart.

Atlas couplers and freight car bolsters from earlier Master Line freight cars. 

I think Atlas has resolved the die cast problems.  I would hope the others have too.

I have one of the really early MTH GG1`s and the paint work is blistering quite a bit,emailed Midge and she offered a new shell and as I live in the UK they would not ask me to return the old one.

But the postage was going to be too expensive so settled for a plastic Williams GG1 on blow out.

Also on the old Overton coaches the couplers turned to dust.

James

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamac

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc_pest

Stuff I didn't know before:

--Zamac alloy composition varies from region to region. As one might suspect, the properties of the finished product vary as well.

--Tin and bronze can be affected by "pest". although chemically unrelated to ZP, they are similarly irreversible once started.

I've only had a couple of MTH Amfleets' couplers go bad (a known problem with that particular model year) and one K-Line truck sideframe (K6491 TTOS 25th anniversary boxcar)

---PCJ

expect too much???  would you like to spend 700-1300.00 for a train to have it fall to dust in a few years..How about this..would you like to spend over 25000.00 on a new car to have the chassie componets fall apart in a few years do to poor qualities metals used in your chassie ..

The only metal that doesn't corrode is not stainless steel, it is gold.

I believe American manufacturing had pretty well mastered the chemistry of die-casting decades ago, to eliminate the problems of zinc pest. So it is disturbing to hear of the problem resurfacing in more recent production - apparently from items produced overseas.

" just looking for a definition here of the term "crumbling" so I can understand."

They say a picture is worth 1000 words, so here are 2000 plus words.

These shots are from some first issue K-Line Heavyweights I own. Not every first issue K-L HW car is so affected. Many are perfectly fine. But it pays to check closely when you purchase. It is not uncommon for the affected piece to remain intact while in the box. You get surprised when you pull the car out of the packaging and the affected piece just crumbles in front of you.  As noted earlier, the issue is not limited to one brand. All of them seem to get affected at one time or another. The common thought is that impurities in the casting metal cause the issue, and I do not doubt this. However, I've also been told that there is a second cause possibility. The theory goes thusly: If the metal and mold are not at the correct temperature, then you get selective separation of the alloy, which in turn leads to the problem. Maybe someone with a metalologist's background can chime in here. I do remember a thread from some time in the dark ages, before the latest version of Forum software that covered this problem. If we are lucky, someone saved a copy.

Chris

LVHR

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc_pest

Jerry

quote:

I believe American manufacturing had pretty well mastered the chemistry of die-casting decades ago, to eliminate the problems of zinc pest. So it is disturbing to hear of the problem resurfacing in more recent production - apparently from items produced overseas.

Later prewar diecast Zamac parts, including locomotive shells generally do not exhibit any signs of zinc rot, so I guess they must have licked the problem.
I had some mid to late 1970's modern era Lionel diecast parts suffer from Zinc rot. Those parts were supposed to have been made in USA, but who knows.

This is what I had already explained in my post above.I have several degreed metallurgical engineers working for me on projects including a consulting PhD. I have discussed this problem with them and I have posted the answer.

I think some unscrupulous Zamak 3 suppliers in Asia are not discarding the heading and tailings of the batch.This is where you find the most impurities. That's why its hit or miss as far as where we are seeing problems.

And,again you have suppliers who may be casting before the right temperatures and pressures are reached,therefore,you don't reach the required temperature for proper crystallization and fusion of the various alloy components. We see the same problems

with microalloyed steels used for high pressure gas line pipe.

Hope this helps,

Ricky

Thank you all for the heads-up on this issue. I'll be looking more closely at any future second-hand purchases.

Another item requiring close scrutiny prior to purchase is the 350E locomotive from Lionel's 1988 reissue of the prewar Hiawatha set. Confirming reports regarding the problem from others, the locomotive in my father's set has developed the condition which has manifested itself in the form of widespread crazing along the boiler. I recall an account from one owner in which he stated his shell warped to the point at which it interfered with the motion of the running gear and couldn't be operated.

As an operator of early N gauge trains, many locomotive frames were made of Zamac and some are now exhibiting warping to a degree which makes it difficult to remove the shells.

Bob   

The Lionel 350 Hiawatha set was produced by Samhongsa.(See my prior posts) 

Couple of years ago, I threw out a pair of Athearn HO U28C's made in the late 1970's because of zinc rot in the underframes.  I seriously doubt Athearn was using Chinese manufacturing or materials back then.

Rusty

FWIW, I have had this problem from three manufacturers:

MTH - 1 freight truck

Williams - nearly all the trucks in a "scale" heavyweight set

3rd Rail - a brass 3-rail boxcar; worst "crumbling" of the three - but all were

rendered useless

No known Lionel issues - but I'm sure that they have their share.

And I'm sure that there are a few in boxes, but I still don't think that this is 

an epidemic.

Oh, and brass locos can be built very robustly; some builders just don't - and much of the add-on steamer detail is brass, though the loco may be Zamac.

Zinc pest was an issue with American products made prior to WW2 but appeared to have been corrected after the war.  Im not aware of post war "made in the US" Flyer and Lionel trains having this problem.  As far as I know there is no surviving pre-war Flyer 0-8-0 NKP switcher that doesnt have a zinc pest problem but Im not aware of any post version that have the problem.  When Lionel and MTH went to China for their products problems started.  I wonder if any "made in Korea" products had problems.  I have an MTH Railking GG-1 and Y6-B both "made in Korea" and no problems with zinc-pest operation or other issues.  bertiejoa

I too had a set of MTH Amfleet passenger cars that had all of the trucks crumble.  I think I read a post on this forum about it also.  There were quite a few sets that this happen to.  I bought my set near 1999 I think and didn't have a chance run them because they are 19" long and would not run on my layout at that time.  Fast forward to around 2005-6, new layout and low and behold all couplers had crumbled.  Past warranty so I had to purchase new ones in 2006, over $60.

Paul Edgar

I have found zinc pest damage on the drive wheels of my Lionel Northern Pacific Atlantic from the 2001 catalog.  It appears as small whitespots.  This was discussed on the forum a few years ago, which got me to examine my locomotive and discover it, at that time.  It appears to be superficial and easily airbrushed over.

George

I sure hope it’s not this set that I got. I haven’t been able to run it yet because I don’t have large enough turns.

I haven't looked at it for a few years and its packed away pretty deep.

In this case it likely wasn't the material,it was a problem with the casting process itself.  

Johnny:

Judging by your picture, I think that's Williams equipment you've got there. The Amfleet sets with the coupler problem were built by MTH.

Bob

From what I'm seeing in this thread,the majority of problems seems to be some Samhongsa built MTH items in the late 90's.It appears a hit or miss.Read my reasoning and explanations in my earlier posts.

I have a set of Williams Pennsy heavyweights with a bag of crumbled trucks.  They had a massive problem with this back in the day.  The new trucks will cost me $30 per car to replace them.  I am considering MTH replacement sprung trucks

Nearly every example I have seen of the NP Atlantic has this issue.These were made by Korea Brass.They likely cast the entire run of drivers needed for the 300-500 locomotives produced in one day.Either a bad lot of Zamak 3 or a casting procedure (temperature/pressure/time) issue.

Ricky

Thanks Bob, that's a relief. I didn't know Williams and MTH were different.

question to all of you?? Where are you storing your trains at in your house?

"Im not aware of post war "made in the US" Flyer and Lionel trains having this problem."

I am aware of one and only one instance: I recently found a boxed Lionel microscope from the science series that was produced in the early to mid 1960s that had the diecast frame totally involved with zinc pest.  I was quite surprised to find it this way, as I had never seen nor heard of one with the problem. The thing was a complete write off.

Joseywales: My trains are stored wherever I can find unclaimed space. Usually either the attic storage room or the basement. Neither are truely climate controled, although the basement probably has a more even temperature and is generally on the warm side due to the furnace (summer/winter hookup). It is also dry, as I have either concrete side walks or another building immediately adjacent to my house.

Chris

LVHR

Zinc pest shows up on the control shafts of some Postwar Lionel transformers. A couple that come to mind are the 1044 and the KW.

I took my 3rd Rail P2 box cab, also from about 15 years ago, out of it's wooden box this week for a spin on the layout. Both couplers were in the open position. When I went to close them, they both crumbled off.

The scale Lionel Pennsy S2 turbine (6-18010) that I purchased earlier this year off of ebay has the paint blisters on the boiler shell. They are not as bad as the in the pictures that Mike W posted.  The tender is OK. 

Every example of this starts with "I took it out of the box....". Does Zinc pest accelerate if the items are stored in the box and not out in the open?

I noticed that too, and that’s what bothers me the most.

No.However,swings in temperature and humidity could accelerate the failure rate.

I'm lucky - I've been bitten by this on nothing too important.  I couple of old postwar locos developed mild cases which I took care of, and I've had a couple of couplers go bad. 

I also have wondered about if and how storing in boxes would accelerate the deterioration.  I don't have an explanation, but I store nothing in boxes and keep all my locos in a clean and semi-heated and cooling (45-85 degrees) place year-round.

Bottom line folks.

With the exception of certain cases where you have zinc pest occurring across an entire run(The Lionel NP Atlantic drivers,The K-Line couplers,Pre-war AF 0-8-0's and UP tenders),It think your die cast locomotives are going to be OK.I have large MTH Premier steam going all the way back to 93-94 with the first scale challengers and ATSF Northern,I have over 200 maybe 250 scale die cast steam locomotives from MTH,Lionel and K-Line.I have 80-90 on display and I have not seen any casting problems on any of them.

Its safe to say it's a "roll of the dice".If you happen to have a die cast Zamac item that was cast early or late in the day's run,you have a greater chance of getting a piece that may have not reached the proper casting temperature,or pressure or casting time.

The instances where we see great numbers of similar failures,like the K-Line trucks and couplers for example,were signs of a bad batch of Zamak.

A good rule is to inspect an item BEFORE you buy. Caveat Emptor,let the buyer beware.

Ricky

Several people have mentioned paint blistering. Paint blistering unaccompanied by other symptoms is not necessarily a sign that the underlying metal is deteriorating. It's more likely bad surface preparation at the factory. If the zinc is not properly cleaned, or if they don't wait long enough after casting, you can get all kinds of flaws in the paint. The MTH tinplate Hiawathas from around 2001 are notorious for this. I've got two of them, both have scaly, irregular looking paint, and neither shows the least sign of zinc rot. The problem was a lack of surface preparation. 

Think twice or even three times about that.

I have been repairing trains for a 83 year old friend of mine who just joined the club and got into trains last year. he has a new set of MTH heavyweights. The trucks on these cars are a new, multipiece cast design and they are falling apart as he runs them. There must be 12 or more parts on each truck, not counting wheels and axles. Evey piece is crumbling and every time he runs the cars another truck breaks.

I tried to make one good truck out of three bad ines. When I was finished, the one "good" truck disintegrated in front of me.

MTH service did not replace the trucks, but offered to SELL him replacements for 30 bucks each. Yikes!