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If you’ve followed my previous 2 threads, you know I’ve been on the fence about using Atlas or ScaleTrax. To that end, I’ve been trying to find a place that had some ScaleTrax,. particularly FlexTrack, in stock. My first source was out of stock before I could get there, but I found another in Midlothian TX, just south of Dallas and we were able to visit last week on our way home from Georgia. The place was far from a store though, it was more of an afterthought in a large farm-like shed/barn out in the country. He did have the track and had a rather large 26x30-something layout using both Atlas and ScaleTrax, I didn’t even notice until he pointed it out. He was able to mate the 2 brands by simply raising the ScaleTrax 1/8” using what he called “putty”. He then finessed the joints using Atlas rail joiners. He has trains like the Blue Goose and Acela, that Blue Goose sure is a pretty thing.
 
He ran an A-B-A unit with 19 long passenger cars for me and I was amazed watching it creep along at 3 mph. I’ve run slow before, but with only 4-5 cars. The layout itself was quite nice, though he used a lot of old school style landscaping tricks, like shingle sand for ballast, scraped-off Woodland Scenics grass mats for roadways and faux grass, etc. He scraped the grass off the mats and sprinkled that around the layout on top of a glue base. He then cut the mat into strips and painted them to make roads. One thing that puzzled me was he said he spread transmission fluid on small 2”-4” sections of mainline track every 6’-10’ about every 6 months or so and then just ran his trains with no further cleaning of the mains. The layout is in a large room with no central air/heat. He did have some kind of small portable units that supposedly cooled the place on really warm days, but I got the impression he didn’t use them much. He also had a lot of powered accessories and 17 of the 19 cars had incandescent lights. When he just turned on the power with nothing moving, one side of the single Z-4000 was already drawing 5.5 amps, so it’s no wonder he tripped the circuit at times, though things ran fine while I was there. I looked underneath and saw that wiring wasn’t his forte, though it wasn’t completely terrible, just quite a few wires hanging loose making it difficult to move around fixing problems.
 
At any rate, seeing his layout made me think about moving my layout from part of a bedroom out into the garage. I like being outdoors and the summer heat doesn’t bother me. It’s dry here, so I’m not concerned about humidity, etc., and I can use smoke outside as much as I want. I haven’t been satisfied with how my horseshoe layout was going to fit in the bedroom with walls on 3 sides and O36/O45 curves. I also didn’t like how the setup was going to look after I outlined it on the floor with tape. I have a 3-car garage and am only using 1 slot for our Prius. I do have some power tools, but they don’t get that much use and are on wheels, so if I do get into a large project, I can always move them to the empty slot or cover the layout. As you can see in the attached photos, the 2-car section has 38.75” high cabinets with a 20” wide workbench top on the north wall and three 20”x36” shelving units on the east wall. The workbench doesn’t get much use other than for storing a few things, most work is done on a Work Mate with an expanded top insert or a portable table, but there is a water heater in the NE corner that I’ll need access to.
 
With that in mind, I drew up an around the room layout with 2 removable sections. Going this route will let me use O63/O72 curves for dual mainlines and O54 curves/turnouts for an oval that forms reversing loops. It also gives me space for a storage yard and some sidings. The workbench section will have to remain 20” wide for access to the storage cabinets and drawers underneath, but if I go this route, I plan to either expand the shelves or replace them altogether with 30” wide benchwork with storage underneath and above. The west side is 24” wide, so it could be expanded a bit inside, the perimeter is pretty much locked. But it will have a removable section and expanding it would reduce the space for the power tools. So I hesitate to do that beyond 30”, even though I could go to 60” and still have access on both sides. Expanding it to 30” though would let me add a town or something along that route.
 
As you’ll also see in the photos, my idea for the removable section on the west side is a wedge on wheels that would be hinged on the south corner. I’ve seen others who have done this sort of thing and I’d follow what they did, though I’d probably just duck under most of the time. Another option would be to build a tower where I could raise that section on a pulley system, but I’m not sure I’m that energetic.
 
The other removable section by the water heater would be a lift-out, possibly in 3 parts. For sure, the 40” bridge part will be a lift-out, but the ends might also be made to lift out to provide just a little extra room if needed. I thought about making it all one piece, but at around 78” long, I figured it would be too large/heavy.
 
So there you have it. This design gives me everything I’ve wanted; min O54 curves, elevated section, over/under, reversing loops, double-crossover, hidden siding, storage yard, passing sidings and room for spurs (if I expand some sections to 30”). It will also let me run longer trains, though I still plan to limit my engine stable to 2 steamers and 3 diesels. I’m not overly happy with the reversing loop oval, but it is better than the circle I started with and I couldn’t come up with any other configuration that would fit using O54 or wider curves. If I expand some sections to 30”, I might also look at moving/splitting the yard. I’ll be playing with those options as well as converting the design to SCARM.
 
Thanks in advance for any comments you care to make. And this time I’m open to just about any suggestion, except a change to the outside perimeter. Oh.....and moving to the garage is not a new idea, but taking up 2 slots is. I know there will be challenges with the tools, etc., but I’m actually willing to deal with those. I’ve enjoyed the design process to get to this point, but this is the first time I’ve felt I’m not compromising on design and am excited to see if I can make this work. I actually wanted a garden railroad (G-scale), but the cost and scope was too intimidating and O-scale is not designed for sunlight, etc. So call me crazy, but the garage was always my next choice, I just couldn’t see how to do it until now. From Feb to Dec, I spend much of my days on the patio or in the garage reading or fiddling, so a garage layout just feels right.
 
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Well shucks Dave. After all that planning for the previous idea!

One of my basic layout design philosophies is: better a good modest layout inside a clean comfortable room in the house, than a bigger layout in a larger space that may have more issues with dust and temperature variations. Also: avoid duck-unders or movable layout sections if you possibly can. Those are my preferences.

If I may make a blunt observation: maybe you are trying to build too much in one fell swoop. If you hang around this place too much, and visit gargantuan layouts, you get the idea that a bigger layout is the only way to go. That you have to have bigger curves for bigger trains - which you don't actually have yet?  I find that the sharper curves typical of 3-rail trains are reasonably acceptable with easements leading into them, so I can fit track plans into available spaces without duck-unders etc.

I would suggest: build a smaller, more basic layout to start, with modular table sections that can be added on to. It will give you a way to try out different types of track before committing to buying larger quantities of track of one brand. The sectional track systems are relatively easy to set up and reconfigure on a flat table. You can also eyeball how your trains look on different curve radii (with easements) and use that info for planning layout expansions.

Last edited by Ace
Country Joe posted:

I like the plan a lot. My only suggestion would be to place some industrial spurs inside the oval in the lower left corner and maybe some other places.

Thanks, Joe. Those are things I'll be looking at as I go further with this design. I've still got about 2 weeks because it will take that long to clean out and rearrange things. I looked again at the shelving units and I think I can just move them a bit and add benchwork to the existing middle shelf so it matches the height of the workbench along the north wall. I'll need to deal with wiring access though. Either way, I'm pretty sure I'll expand the east side to at least 30", but I want to lay it out on the floor first to see a full-size footprint.

Ace, I appreciate your comments and I hope you don't take this wrong, but I think my commentary has given you the wrong impression as to why I'm moving in a different direction. It wasn't the size of the store layout that got to me. It was the accessibility beyond a single walk-in entry point. It was that I'm not at all pleased with how much space the horseshoe design will take up in the bedroom, how much running space I'd get with it or the loss of the bedroom. And it was the outdoor aspect.

I completely understand the advantages to being indoors, but I like fresh air and spend probably 80-90% of my time outdoors, even at the peak of summer. If I get too warm, I come in for 30 minutes and go right back out. But the biggest reason was a comment my wife made after seeing his layout wondering if I couldn't do something in the garage now that our daughter's car is no longer here. My previous idea for the garage was a smaller single car slot, but having donated our van to buy a Prius in 2014 and my daughter moving out in February opened up 2 slots, so her comment made me wonder. And the more I thought about it, the more I realized it was the solution I'd been looking for. And I don't think you realize just how much indoor dust there is in Arizona. My tools in the garage stay cleaner than all the knick-knacks in the house.

As for all the planning, that doesn't bother me. If you look at past designs, this latest design incorporates almost all those features, except for the multiple levels aspect. I've been planning a layout in different locations since I bought my only train back in Nov 2012. For me, designing is therapeutic and brings back some of the pleasure I got out of computer programming during my Air Force days. So for me it hasn't been wasted effort and I don't regret moving in a new direction.

I know you're an expert at designing small layouts and I've learned a lot studying some of your designs. However, if you look at my design, you'll see that it's really only two ~4x8 tables forming an "L" with rather narrow around-the-room extensions. I totally understand avoiding the duck-under, lift-out, etc., that would be my preference too, but I've given these a lot of thought over the past 3+ years and I'm willing to accept the hassle, even though I know I'm not getting any younger. IMHO, all my previous designs were compromises and I didn't realize how big a compromise the space was until I laid down the tape. I completely understand what you're saying, but I won't be satisfied building a layout in a space I won't be happy with just for the sake of building a layout. If that were the case, I'd have kept my 8x12 Christmas layout (in the garage I might add) and simply enhanced that. Unfortunately, I wasn't happy with it beyond Christmas and moving it into the house didn't help one bit.

I have no problem with tight curves, engine/car overhang, etc., though I understand those who do and why. Being able to use O54/O63/O72 curves had no impact at all on my decision to change directions, I didn't even think about that until I started playing with a new design and they were just by-products. What I'm after more is "run length", for lack of a better term. I don't want to stand at a 4x8 table, or even an 11x10x13 horseshoe, and watch a train go around. I want to be able to stand at the garage door and watch trains go 20' to the other side of the garage, over 18' and then come back while other trains go in the opposite direction. While I get a 13' run with my horseshoe design, it's in a more cluttered environment with all the other track around it. I get more enjoyment out of watching the trains along I-10 or I-40 off in the distance surrounded by desert than watching those same trains in a city setting.

I also don't get any thrill out of role-playing with a "reason" for the layout other than going from the outskirts of Tucson to the outskirts of El Paso, Flagstaff to Amarillo or even a shorter run like Flagstaff to Williams. In short, I'm not a railroader and don't want to be. That said, the northern half of the layout landscaping will eventually be based on the high-country desert surrounding Flagstaff and the southern half on the low-country desert outside Phoenix.

And I do appreciate you being blunt, I'd rather that than no comment. And while reading your comments, I've already thought of something else I might do instead of the swing-out, so even though you didn't mention it specifically, your comments inspired an idea for me to consider. Maybe noting will come from it, but the point is that comments generate ideas, even if they are basically telling me to scrap and start over.

You violated one of John Armstrong's main rules, your yard does not an independent lead.   He recommended a yard lead clear of the main or running tracks that is as long as the longest yard siding.    This is important because yards are not for storage, they are for making up and breaking down trains and for classifying incoming cars for their next destinations.    The lead allows the yard to be worked without interfering with trains on the main.

Thanks, Phil. I just put that together while I decide if I want to expand the shelves to 30"-36" or not. I'll be playing with it some more and maybe even come up with a way to close it on both ends to make it a through yard. But, it is just for storage and not for putting trains together, etc. Still, I agree that if I'm going to have it, it might as well make it look as realistic as I can.

As far a metal flakes, etc., go, I don't do any metal work anymore. I don't even know why I still have the grinder, haven't used it since we went all xeriscape with no grass a few years ago. However, even if I were to use it to sharpen clipper blades or something, I'd move it away from the layout. It's just there to remind me I need a place to store it.

So, the only real concern is sawdust. I'm kind of anal about cleaning after I do any work with the Shop Smith and the vacuum gets a lot of it, especially dust above the tabletop. I never had any trouble during the 2 years I had the smaller layout in the garage where the main tabletop is, so I'm not expecting things to be any different just because the layout will be larger.

Dave, one concern I've heard from others in the Phoenix area who have garage layouts is dust.  It is amazing how it can seep in everywhere.  If you go this way, you might consider at least sealing the unused garage door you show in your plan.  That will still allow dust to seep in through the operating door however.  I would talk to some of the fellows in your area who have a layout there to see how they deal with that issue.

Yes, dust is the other issue with being in a garage (1st being extreme heat.).  But dust is also an issue inside the house too.

As for O outside, the Atlas track is made to be UV protected, so you could just go ahead and go outside.

But for the idea of moving to the garage, I sure wouldn't myself, it's just too hot for me, and I'd be worried not about storing trains in the heat, but the effect of the heat on the electronics while running them in the heat.  Most electronics operating conditions are no higher than 90 deg F, which means you shouldn't run anything most of this week with the forecast temps we are getting.  I worry about the heat in the summer when it comes to running my trains as the add on room they are in isn't part of the central AC, but has a small window unit built in the wall that's older than I am, so it gets in the high 80s during our dry heat.

Peter,  as Sinclair said and I well know, dust is a problem inside as well as outside down here. I will be using minimal landscaping that will be secure enough to vacuum and blow off with my air compressor. I'm probably downplaying things, but it really wasn't a problem for the 2 years I had my previous layout in the garage.

Sinclair, those are good points about the heat and electronics. I can only fall back on my experience with the previous layout having had no problems with the engine, transformer or TIU. I've also had a Kenwood receiver and speakers out there for over 20 years and it's been on any time I've been in the garage for more than a few minutes. My brother-in-law over in Scottsdale spends most of his time in the garage and has all kinds of electronics in his, including a Cox DVR and we all know how cheaply those are made. I have a thermometer out there, so I'll check the temps this week, but's not like I'll be running trains for hours on end during the summer. We travel a lot and try to go somewhere for most of the summer.

I know Atlas track has UV protection, but there are too many other hassles trying to maintain a G scale train outside, much less O scale, such as never-ending leaves from the Ficus trees and droppings from the birds my wife feeds.

Dave,

I do like the new staging/yard lead plan better.    While right now you are thinking this is just storage, down the road after you build it, and you run a few trains around the loops, you might, just might, wonder what to do next - - and if the yard is workable, that will provide additional entertainment.

By the way, another Armstrong's recommendations concerned staging/storage.   He recommended that if you think you need N storage tracks, build 2N+1.    I sure wish I had done that.

Jim

 

Thanks, Jim. I'm not opposed to a yard with more realistic operation, I just couldn't see how to fit it in and probably responded to your post too quickly, sorry. Carl has sent me some more ideas for yard leads and I'll play with expanding the tabletop to 30"-36" sometime today. Now you have me wanting a through yard so I can park complete trains and just switch out the engines. And I understand you're comment about the future and when I get to the point where I can no longer drive long distances, that might be the case.

Yeah, there's no doubt John is the guru and I pretty much agree with him, but his "rules" have to be tempered by available space and other desires. Though we enjoyed watching the 19-car passenger train run, I have no intention of doing anything like that other than maybe as a test or something. While we get a kick out of seeing long trains along the routes we take to Georgia, we get a bigger kick out of seeing smaller trains one after another or when they pass in opposite directions. One reason I don't want to build a big yard is to avoid the temptation to buy more trains and rolling stock just for the sake of filling the yard.  

Last edited by DoubleDAZ
prrjim posted:
By the way, another Armstrong's recommendations concerned staging/storage.   He recommended that if you think you need N storage tracks, build 2N+1.    I sure wish I had done that.

Problem with this is then I'd only have a yard and nowhere to run trains!  I just hope I have enough to be happy for a few years.

DoubleDAZ posted:

Sinclair, those are good points about the heat and electronics. I can only fall back on my experience with the previous layout having had no problems with the engine, transformer or TIU. I've also had a Kenwood receiver and speakers out there for over 20 years and it's been on any time I've been in the garage for more than a few minutes. My brother-in-law over in Scottsdale spends most of his time in the garage and has all kinds of electronics in his, including a Cox DVR and we all know how cheaply those are made. I have a thermometer out there, so I'll check the temps this week, but's not like I'll be running trains for hours on end during the summer. We travel a lot and try to go somewhere for most of the summer.

Yes, it will be too hot during the summer to run for hours like we want to, and if you think about it, cars are out in the heat and keep running, so you'll most likely will be fine.  Just don't expect me to come help or do a session for very long in the heat.

sinclair posted:

Yes, it will be too hot during the summer to run for hours like we want to, and if you think about it, cars are out in the heat and keep running, so you'll most likely will be fine.  Just don't expect me to come help or do a session for very long in the heat.

Not to worry, I'm not the type to run for hours hot or cold, but your point is well taken. If I don't run at all during the summer months, I'll be okay with that. I know many G scale folks who don't run during the summer months either, so it's not like I'd be setting a precedent.

Did some more fiddling with the yard ideas I've been given and this is what I was able to come up with. Also, I was told there is a prototype of my oval reversing loops near an oil facility just SW of Trenton ND, so I'm not going to try to change that anymore, I'll just work on the scenery around it to make it stand out less. I see there is now a base spot on the lower part of the layout, so I may rework the tabletop and bench work there to reclaim some of that space.

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