Postwar American Flyer 336 Northern motors

Short answer seems to be yes, whether or not one is more common than the other, the larger motor version is the much more desirable version from an operational standpoint if nothing else.  Take that a step further, while you may feel you see more large motor 336's, I suspect that you seldom if at all see large motor parts in general for sale yet you can pick up small motor parts everywhere.  There were also large motor versions of the 326 Hudson and the PRR K5  as well.

And when you do find larger motor parts, they are priced out of the ball park...

Marty

I know that one of my 336's has a small motor and the others are large.

The small motor one I have I seem to remember was date stamped as being an early one and I wonder as the 336 was a progression from the K335 that they just made the early ones the same.

The 313 was made with both small and large motors and I believe the first year of these were small and the second year had the large motors.

I just consulted my Greenberg Guide to AF volume 1 on this and it says the large motors were a 1956 modification to the K5, Hudson and Northern which lasted until the 5-digit versions were manufactured with the drum type armature and 2 position reverse unit mounted in the cab. For what it's worth. 

Although, surprisingly the K5 had large motor versions going back to 1952!

Maybe I have not identified the motor in my newly acquired 336 northern correctly. I compared mine to photos from several eBay lots. I think I have a large motor. The engine is part of set k5358, which was offered in 1953 and 1954. 

I think large had a 3/4" long lamination stack and the normal motors are 1/2"  Just compare it with any smaller engine like a 293 or something.  It should be clear in a side by side comparison.  FWIW, there have been "aftermarket" 1" stack motors at various times which would certainly fit the Northern, but not likely fit the Hudson or K5.

The large motors are not as common as they were made later. As for the E-Bay listings, many of these sellers have no idea what the difference is, and offer it as the large motor because its supposed to bring better money and more interest. Unless you can see the motor, do not believe the text. The large motor are more common in the Northern, and tougher to find in the Hudson and K5. The flat commutator versions were only offered for one year before the conversion to drum commutators which are a bit more common. They do seem to pull better than the standard motor.

Tin

Thank you again to everybody for the help.
And a special thanks to Dennis for the measurements. Too bad that my guide mentions the large and small motor, but does not tell the reader how to tell them apart.

I measured the field of my motor from underneath, by the rear trailing truck. It is indeed 3/4 inch, so I must have a large motor one. 
The motor has a flat commutator.

As for the E-Bay listings, many of these sellers have no idea what the difference is, and offer it as the large motor because its supposed to bring better money and more interest. Unless you can see the motor, do not believe the text.

Now that I know what the large motor looks like, and have confirmed that mine has the large motor, I reviewed the "large motor" Northern listing on EBay. Most, if not all of them include photos that show the motor from the bottom., by the trailing truck.
They are indeed, large motor 336 Northerns.

I have also consulted my reprint of the American Flyer factory service manual. There is no mention of different motors, nor are there any listings of alternate parts for their motors.

I am going to keep watching EBay for small motored Northerns.

Does anybody have one?

I have been collecting American Flyer for a long time.  I know that the Greenberg guides list a 336 with a small motor and a large motor.  However, I have never found or seen an "original", non-modified  336 with a small motor.  I have checked with other notable collectors and have received the same response from them.  The 1952 K335 did come with a small motor.  Since these motors can be switched, I would not think it would be unusual to find a 336 here and there with a small motor.  Someone could make the switch and sell the large motor separately and probably make more money with a separate sale of the 336 and large motor.  If anyone can verify that they have or have ever seen a documented original 336 with a small motor, I would be interested in hearing about.

Ken Orlowski

I just got home and am able to check Robert Hannon's Reference Guide for all things electrical made by Gilbert. I have fund this reference book to be accurate.

1. The XA11077 Pul-Mor armature with associated field was never used in the 343, 346, 326,313 & 336. It is the small motor.

2. The XA13B926 was used in the 346 in 1955, the 343 in 1955 to 1957 and in the 21145 in 1958. The length of the armature poles is 30/32", same as the super armature but it does not have the flat commutator.

3. There were 2 versions of the super motor. The first, XA12A523 was used in the 336 from 1953 to 1957, the 326 from 1955 to 1957 and in the 313 from late 1956 to 1957. The second version was the XA14B816. It was used in 1963 in the 21129, 21130, 21139 & 21140. 

I hope this helps. 

Thanks guys. So my 1953-54 336 northern has a super motor. I will have to see what I can learn about it.

I have Hannon books on Lionel. I don't think I have the Flyer one. I do have the Flyer service manual.

It is starting to sound like the small motor version listed in the guides might be an error 

C W Burfle posted:

 

<snip>

It is starting to sound like the small motor version listed in the guides might be an error 

Rest assured, when it appears it is an error.

Bob

AmFlyer posted:

I just got home and am able to check Robert Hannon's Reference Guide for all things electrical made by Gilbert. I have fund this reference book to be accurate.

1. The XA11077 Pul-Mor armature with associated field was never used in the 343, 346, 326,313 & 336. It is the small motor.

2. The XA13B926 was used in the 346 in 1955, the 343 in 1955 to 1957 and in the 21145 in 1958. The length of the armature poles is 30/32", same as the super armature but it does not have the flat commutator.

3. There were 2 versions of the super motor. The first, XA12A523 was used in the 336 from 1953 to 1957, the 326 from 1955 to 1957 and in the 313 from late 1956 to 1957. The second version was the XA14B816. It was used in 1963 in the 21129, 21130, 21139 & 21140. 

 

I hope this helps. 

Tom this cannot be accurate. I have both a 313 and 343 with the small motor armature that are both original. The later versions of the large motor armatures are the drum commutator type. They would be from very late 1956 into 1957 and forward.

Tin

I have not observed enough unmdified engines to have a reliable data base. Here is the page from the reference book.