Postwar Lionel Era Roadnames

Lionel trains were considered toys back in those days.  You know,, fun to play with.  A few pieces were produced close to scale, but the majority were just toys.  Tthe steamers started out black or gray and nothing really required that other colors be used..

For what it's worth did the prewar freight cars and electric engines really exist in the peacock spectrum of colors that Lionel used?

As for the diesels, they needed to  resemble the road names/colors of those railroads and mfr who partially funded the initial tooling, (SF, NYC and GM). 

Free advertisment?

I seem to recall that Lionel was paid by NYC and Santa Fe, and perhaps EMD, for the honor of Lionel producing their locomotives. Perhaps I heard wrong, however.

@jay jay posted:

I seem to recall that Lionel was paid by NYC and Santa Fe, and perhaps EMD, for the honor of Lionel producing their locomotives. Perhaps I heard wrong, however.

According to Tuohy-McComas, Josh asked EMD to cover 25% of the tooling costs.  Santa Fe and NYC were asked if they would cover 25% of the decorating costs.  All parties agreed.

Rusty

Joshua owned the company.  He can name the line anything he wanted.   As was mentioned earlier, they were toys.   Really, if you really think about it they still are toys.

@Vinny26 posted:

Joshua owned the company.  He can name the line anything he wanted.   As was mentioned earlier, they were toys.   Really, if you really think about it they still are toys.

Not really relevant to the question the OP asked. We know who owned the company.

It's a good question. Inertia from thetrue Toy Trains of the 30's and before, is part of the reason. Still a good question. After all, a company might be willing to pony up for a steamer tender and number decoration. Pretty cheap.

But, I have a feeling that is was partly die to steamers being "black and all the same" so none would really have stood out like the diesels - and, even more importantly, steam was definitely yesterday's news, and most corporations did not want to be associated with an obsolete technology by springing for the lettering.

Still - the steamers still sold like hotcakes and you would think that Lionel would have, for its own reasons, added some realistic lettering to its more realistic steamers (it did on rolling stock). Contrary to what keeps getting said (and said and said....) they were not all "just toys" and were frequently used by adults and near-adults, and clubs, for actual model railroading. After all, typically, they were far more reliable than most affordable "scale" equipment of the day.

@D500 posted:

Still - the steamers still sold like hotcakes and you would think that Lionel would have, for its own reasons, added some realistic lettering to its more realistic steamers (it did on rolling stock).

I think you may have answered your own question here.  "Lionel Lines" steam locomotives sold well enough there wasn't any reason to letter them for anything else.

Rusty

Using the same concept, the passenger cars were probably labeled Lionel Lines so they could be used with any road name diesel.

@D500 posted:

Not really relevant to the question the OP asked. We know who owned the company.

It's a good question. Inertia from thetrue Toy Trains of the 30's and before, is part of the reason. Still a good question. After all, a company might be willing to pony up for a steamer tender and number decoration. Pretty cheap.

But, I have a feeling that is was partly die to steamers being "black and all the same" so none would really have stood out like the diesels - and, even more importantly, steam was definitely yesterday's news, and most corporations did not want to be associated with an obsolete technology by springing for the lettering.

Still - the steamers still sold like hotcakes and you would think that Lionel would have, for its own reasons, added some realistic lettering to its more realistic steamers (it did on rolling stock). Contrary to what keeps getting said (and said and said....) they were not all "just toys" and were frequently used by adults and near-adults, and clubs, for actual model railroading. After all, typically, they were far more reliable than most affordable "scale" equipment of the day.

Great comments, D500. You know, conversely, Gilbert did differently with their American Flyer S gauge trains during that same period. They usually imprinted a real railroad road name on their steam locos along  with “American Flyer.”

They also used the “American Flyer” name on several diesels, while Lionel chose not to use their company name that way.

So, two competitors choosing opposite strategies. Interesting…

In the fifties the Lionel Corporate was the largest TOY manufacturer in the world.   My comments regarding the reason why Joshua wanted Lionel Lines on his trains is relevant to the OP question.    Todays market requires realistic trains, not “built by Lionel” on the sides of boxcars and flatcars.    Another question.   Why do almost all flatcars from the postwar era say, “LIONEL” on its sides?    Josh’s trains, his rules.

@Vinny26 posted:

In the fifties the Lionel Corporate was the largest TOY manufacturer in the world.   My comments regarding the reason why Joshua wanted Lionel Lines on his trains is relevant to the OP question.    Todays market requires realistic trains, not “built by Lionel” on the sides of boxcars and flatcars.    Another question.   Why do almost all flatcars from the postwar era say, “LIONEL” on its sides?    Josh’s trains, his rules.

I thought Marx was larger but I could be wrong.

@Bill DeBrooke posted:

I thought Marx was larger but I could be wrong.

In 1955, Marx sales were $50 million, Lionel $32 Million.  Marx had a much more diverse product line than Lionel.

Rusty

Wikipedia said this:

By 1953 Lionel profits reached their highest level, during postwar, at over $32 million. During the same year, Lionel became the world's largest toy manufacturer.

@Vinny26 posted:

In the fifties the Lionel Corporate was the largest TOY manufacturer in the world.   My comments regarding the reason why Joshua wanted Lionel Lines on his trains is relevant to the OP question.    Todays market requires realistic trains, not “built by Lionel” on the sides of boxcars and flatcars.    Another question.   Why do almost all flatcars from the postwar era say, “LIONEL” on its sides?    Josh’s trains, his rules.

I think you can have realistic scale trains with the Lionel Lines logo and built by Lionel on the side.  In the latest issue of OGR Ed Boyle @Ed Boyle in the Collector's gallery has a new term for O gauge operators that like scale sized realistic looking trains but are not put off by non-prototypical road names and fantasy road names on scale sized cars and locomotives: Realistic Fantasy Lovers. I would call myself squarely in that camp.  As a point of definition I think that so called "fantasy trains" can be broken down into two categories:

- Non-prototypical paint scheme. Examples: Boston and Maine paint scheme on a Legacy SC70ace. Never happened in real life but the Boston and Maine was a real railroad. NASA train set, John Deer train set ( NASA and John Deer are a real organizations)

- Fantasy trains: Examples: Groom Lake Railroad train set, Graves Mortuary Service PS-1 boxcars, Polar Express trains, Phantom locomotive

If you think about it, they really are two different things based on how much suspension of disbelief you need to run them on your railroad. I know that many scale guys have absolutely no interest in scale sized  Non-prototypical paint schemes and Fantasy trains . However, I would encourage my scale friends to be tolerant when these trains show up in the Lionel catalog. The sales of Non-prototypical paint schemes and Fantasy trains help finance the production of the scale prototypical trains that you enjoy. There is room for all.

@Dave Warburton posted:

I have no idea why, but it occurred to me recently that Postwar Lionel obviously made a decision to produce its ubiquitous stable of STEAM LOCOMOTIVES under the “Lionel Lines” name for some reason while using many REAL railroad names for its DIESEL FLEET. And I wonder why they made that choice? Certainly, in the modern era, steamers have been produced in real railroad names just as often as diesels.

Can you recall Lionel PW steam locos  made in any actual  railroad names other than:

- New York Central (Hudson)

- Pennsylvania (S-2 Turbine)

- Norfolk and Western (“J” Northern)

- Southern Pacific (late 1960s plastic Columbia) ?

Conversely, the firm labeled none of its diesels (as I can recall) for “Lionel Lines” with the lone exception being the #520 Boxcab, and it was an Electric Motor. I know there was a prototype EP-5 Electric made labeled “LIONEL,” but never produced.

So, WHY do you think that Lionel named its motive power in this way?  
Let’s speculate!    

Here’s another road name……..1959 catalog:

Peter

@Putnam Division posted:

Here’s another road name……..1959 catalog:

Peter

Ha-ha! You got me!  And I actually have one of these. Well  done!  Plus the 249 and 250 plastic body Columbias, too, now that you reminded me.
Makes me wonder WHY though? I mean, they only did this with so few locos so why these ones? Maybe jazz them up a little since color was involved?

@Dave Warburton posted:

Ha-ha! You got me!  And I actually have one of these. Well  done!  Plus the 249 and 250 plastic body Columbias, too, now that you reminded me.
Makes me wonder WHY though? I mean, they only did this with so few locos so why these ones? Maybe jazz them up a little since color was involved?

Dave………yes! This is a colorful set!…..it has always stuck out in my mind because in the 90s (when PostWar was going for insane prices), the flat with Christmas trees was going for astronomical prices!

Thank you for coming up with this thread…….it jogged my PostWar memory!

Peter

My 736 Berkshire, purchased in 1960 from Madison Hardware, came with a Pennsylvania tender.

John

All of the post war General engines, 1862, 1872, and 1882, were labeled for "Western and Atlantic Railroad".  Sorry but I don't have a picture to share.

@31charlie posted:

All of the post war General engines, 1862, 1872, and 1882, were labeled for "Western and Atlantic Railroad".  Sorry but I don't have a picture to share.

Bingo! You got me, again!  Well done. I totally forgot about the W&A Generals.