Postwar 736 Restoration

First thing I would do is try to get a drop or two of PB Blaster or something similar into the threads. Then set the motor aside for an hour or so to let it work.

Then try again.

If you have a 1/4 inch drive impact gun, try that. Sometimes an impact gun will break a stuck fastener free. (Not the same as an electric screwdriver). Don't get carried away - just a couple of blips. If the stud is spinning too easily, this probably won't help.

The end of that sleeve looks to me like someone held a phillips head screwdriver or something similar against it to stop the spinning.

How freely did it spin, lots of force to make it spin, or did it turn easily?

Maybe a little super glue around the out side. But don't get any in the crack, that might find its way to the screw threads.

Don't want to put words in Brad's mouth, but I am guessing he means on the clinched end (shown in the picture).

If you go that route, make certain to carefully clean the area first to get rid of any grease/oil. I'd use mineral spirits.

Please keep us posted.

The part that is spinning, where you are trying to remove the brush plate screw is essentially a long rivet, with internal threads on the brush plate end.  The end where the screws are is narrower than the inserted part of the field winding.  I would suggest putting super glue (preferably LocTite) around the outer part of the "rivet", to hold it in place, and keep it from spinning.  Let it cure, before attempting to try to remove the screw.  Then do as CW suggested with some PB blaster or something that can soak into the threads, and possibly loosen it enough to remove the screw.  I have a 681-100 motor that I totally dismantled, and I know exactly what the "Rivet shaft looks like.  The only threads are where the brush plate screw is inserted.

The end of the sleeve spun at the same speed as the screw. The screw turned as if it were a normal screw. Thats why it took me a while to realize something was not quite right. The superglue idea sounds like it might work.

The super glue I recommend is Loc Tite.  I have used other brands, but my best success has been Loc Tite, which dries pretty fast.  As mentioned in my other post, I completely tore apart a 681-100 motor, as an experiment.  I bid and won it, but when I received it, I soon found that the windings were broken, and the motor didn't run.  I started to unwind the wire to hopefully find the break, and discovered that there were more breaks than anticipated.

This was going to be an experiment motor at that point.  I purchased enameled wire, of the same gauge as the windings, but then had to figure out how to take the old winding off, and put new wire on.  I ground down the "rivet end" to be able to slide the field winding off of the casting, and rewind the motor.  I did rewind new wire onto the motor, and tested it with success.  I only need to come up with a way to attach the ground end of the winding to the casting.  This is the reason why I know what that "rivet/thread shaft" looks like.  The super glue will most likely solve your problem of the shaft spinning, and let you unscrew the brush plate.

Good Luck

You can also try restaking the rivet with a punch. I have a spring loaded punch that is easy to use rather then a hammer and punch.

franktrain

Many of those studs are available as a replacement part now. Once you have it apart, you may wish to replace the stud.

I have just applied some super glue to the spinning end. I'm going to let it dry for a few hours. I'll let you all know how it turns out later today. 

I have the special screw stud CW is referring to. I can sell you one, or do the repair work if you don't want to tear the motor apart. I don't think super glue will work in this case. It doesn't have the tinsel strength to hold the stud as there will be an oil build up inside and the glue will not hold. If interested, email in profile.

Chuck 

Chuck Sartor..  I didn't know that the stud was available, so wondering if there is a part number associated.  As stated in my earlier post, I tore apart a 681-100, but grounded off the knurled over edge, to be able to pull the motor apart.  I would like to put it back together correctly, with the proper stud.  Available and what price?

If you have a flat bladed screwdriver or chisel that is the correct width, sometimes it can be wedged into the clinch to stop the stud from turning.

Tightening the clinch, as Frank suggested might work too. I'd probably use a chisel or a splaying clincher.

If this is the motor's only problem, it certainly

can be fixed. If what has been suggested doesn't work, the repair does get a bit more complicated, and will likely require a replacement stud.

Drop me a email when you can.

Chuck

Wondering if you had any success with the Super Glue remedy, or other methods mentioned.  Curious if you finally got the screw out of the motor.

I unfortunately have not had success. Still working at it, though. Now I'm trying to just get the whole post out and either get a new one or make my own solution (i.e. long screw w/ nut on the end). By the way does anyone have a blown-up schematic for a pullmor motor that they could photograph and post up here? That might be helpful. Thank you all for your support.

There's a cutaway drawing of the 681-100 from the old Lionel Service Manual in the Olsen's Toy Train library here.

Unfortunately, it doesn't break the 'stud' out seperately, as it's considered part of the basic motor housing.

Not sure if this would work, but drill a small hole thru the side of the housing until you hit the stud. Then it would be jammed and then try removing the screw?

franktrain

Why not just drill the stud out instead if poking holes in the motor?   Once it's apart, it can be replaced.

Part of my Brakeman's Riveter kit is a little anvel that keeps rivets from spinning when you want to drill them out, that might be a way to get the screw out.

Harry, 

  You can re-stake the bottom side with a small screwdriver or or punch. After staking take a soldering iron and heat the screw for a few seconds, then it should remove easily. Then re-stake the stud permanently.

Bill 

If I wanted to remove that stud, I would drill off the clinch, and drive the stud out with a pin punch.

It would be a bit tricky to avoid damaging the brush plate, might have to slide the brush plate off the good stud as the bad stud comes out to avoid cracking. So I would use light taps to move the stud just a bit at a time until the brush plate is off the other stud.

get a bigger hammer!

I would try to cut a slot across the clinched end with a rotary tool and cut-off wheel or small file so a flat blade screwdriver could be used to hold the rivet from spinning. Just a thought.

Good answer!!

Boxcar Bil, I see in your signature you work for the Electric RR Company. Once I get the motor cleaned, would a AC/DC Commander Board fit inside the 736 locomotive where the E-unit is? I would like to run this engine with my LEGACY once it has a spotless motor.

Harry,

   I don't work for ERR, but we sell there products and do installations. I've never installed a AC commander in a 736. It is probably possible, but I would install it the tender.

Oh, Okay. Sorry about the mix up. Thank you for the advice on the board placement. 

I have not tried with the screw in a while. Still need suggestions. Please help!!

There are a lot of ideas already. Which ones have you tried?

Richoshay's answer seems to be the answer I would try.

some how you need to get a hold of the clinched end to keep

it from rotating. the slot cut seems like the answer. even if you cut

slightly into the housing, I think you'll be OK and be able to get a

sloted screw driver on that end to hold it.

The brushplate screw is probably stuck but good in the post.
Certainly Rickoshay's suggestion is worth a try.

I would not be surprised if he had to drill off the clinch, and drive the post out with a pin punch.
He is going to need to go slowly, and raise the brush plate on the good post as he goes. Otherwise the brush plate is likely to break.

Once the post is out, he can grab it with a vise grips or something similar, and get the screw out to release the brush plate.

I have just changed the title of this topic to "Postwar 736 Restoration", as I am planning to do more than just clean the brushes. Have left the motor screw alone for a while now. Later to night I plan to resolder the light bulb housing into the front. Might post lighted pictures later tonight/tomorrow. Thank you all for your advice in this endeavour!

Harry, I would send the motor to Chuck Sartor, he has the resources to handle this problem. Your other option is to contact Timko Trains and see if he has a motor that would replace the open frame motor with a can motor, that would make a conversion to modern electronics much easier. 

quote:

Later to night I plan to resolder the light bulb housing into the front

Just curious: Do you mean the headlight that is attached to the outside front of the boiler front door?

Or do you mean you are doing something with the lamp socket?
The lamp socket is just a brass shell for a screw based bulb. It snaps into a spring holder on the inside of the boiler front door. It is not soldered in place.

Or it is something else?

In reply to C W Burfle: The brass lamp socket was attacked to the wire that powers the light. However, the old solder join broke, so I fixed it.

In reply to Train Doctor: I have tried to remove the motor, and was unsuccessful. I do not know how to remove it. One thing I thought as a possibility was to put in a can motor, but I don't know.

The motor only runs bad on my bigger layout. It works great on a smaller loop under a bed. Both are floor layouts (until summer, hopefully). It post a video of it running w/ light tonight!

As promised, I made a video of the 736 running with the bulb working again. You will see the motor doesn't need to be cleaned by how well it runs, I just want to clean it so it will work well longer. Heres the link to it on my YouTube channel!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=...youtube_gdata_player

I think the light turned out pretty good. Hope you all enjoy the running session. Also check out my other videos if you have a chance.

A quick question on which screw is bound up.  When you look at the brush plate, which screw is bound up; i.e. the left screw or the right screw.  You also mention that you tried to remove the motor, which was unsuccessful.  If it is mounted like the motor of a late version 671/2020, it only has two screws holding the motor into the frame.  My 736 is boxed away at the time being.  Just unsolder the wires from the E-unit, remove the two screws, and the motor should come right out.  That way, you can get to the front of the stud, to try one of the remedies posted before.

There is also a sheet metal cover over the well in which the worm engages the worm gear (sometimes called the worm wheel).  It is just pressed in place, and can be removed by gently prying with a flat bladed screwdriver.

When you remove the motor, be careful. There are two pins inserted into the frame to help align the motor. They are not staked in place, and sometimes lift out. There might also be very thin shim washers. If there are, keep track of where they were placed.
I have looked for replacement shim washers, and never have been able to find any. I have made my own from sheet styrene.

Have you read the Lionel Service Manual pages?

Created a part 2 of the running video. Part 3 coming later this week (Wednesday?)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...5wV4&app=desktop

I hope you enjoy the video. Be sure to read the description below first.