Power strips for transformers

I assume you are talking about older post war transformers.  As long as you phase them the correct way using modern transformers as a model, this is a great idea that way they can be mixed with other modern transformers and each other.

As for power surge protectors, I use them with my modern transformers as well as post war transformers with no issues.  I have even plugged in TMCC and Legacy command bases into them without any issues so far (but remember somewhere that his was not recommended, yet it still worked fine for me).

I don't have any particular brand or model that I favor.  Usually it's just what was available at the the time that I decided to use.  Some of mine are old yet they still work fine.

As far as them really working?  Not sure since I'm not consciously aware of any power surges or spikes where they had to save the day. 

Nothing from walmart is going to protect your equipment from a direct or close strike of lightening other than not being connected to the wall during a storm.

I mostly buy them for the convenience of having multiple outlets on a switch and surge protection is secondary unless you are going to spend the big bucks on one and in that case you might as well by whole house surge protection if you are going to be serious about that.

Thanks Paul, our procedure on the ZW's is to use the top 110v connector as the "white", connection on the 3 prong power plugs. FYI use an Ohm meter to the end of the cord, a zero Ohm says you have the right end. A 20 ohm or so, you have the wrong one.

Well, the surge protectors in power strips provide some protect, but I don't count on it being too much.  I use a power strip just because it provides a convenient switch for all the transformers, and I don't count on it providing any surge protection.  

Please STOP.  As a retired master electrician, I have to speak up if you are selling refurbished postwar ZWs.  The 3rd/ground prong on a plug indicates the item has an earth ground to the housing.

The correct fix is to use a polarized 2 prong plug.  The wide blade fits into the neutral socket.

Lionel's Wiring Convention for their postwar transformers (followed by Lionel and MTH today most of the time) is:

#16 2-wire heater cord smooth insulation on one wire and ribbed insulation on other wire.
    (Modern replacement cord will have a 2 prong polarized plug.)
smooth wire Hot goes into top hole inside postwar ZW
ribbed wire Neutral goes into bottom hole inside postwar ZW
2 prong polarized plug is wired with narrow blade to smooth Hot and wide blade to ribbed Neutral.

The wide blade correctly aligns all the transformers on a plug strip.

Excellent post Susan.

Thanks for chiming in, Susan. Reading Tin Man's "procedure" left me wondering whether or not he was kidding.

Add my thanks to Susan as well.

I would find any Postwar transformer with a three prong plug to be suspect.

The replacement cord sets sold by my my favorite suppliers do have polarized cords (one conductor with ribbed insulation), but the plugs themselves are not polarized (both blades are the same size)

I agree with Susan on using the 2-prong polarized plug.  But if I had to replace a cord or plug and didn't have one handy (hard to believe because I always look for an excuse for a trip to Lowes), I'd use a 3-prong in preference to a 2-pole non-polarized.

As to which wire to connect, I used my Z4000 as a base for polarization.  Phased my ZWs, KW, & R with it, and then connected 2-prong polarized plugs to provide matching polarization.  When replacing an entire cord, I used 2-prong polarized cordsets from Lowes, and connected them internally so that they would match the Z4000's polarization.  This involved powering them up with the cases open, a sitaution calling for caution.

Speaking of Lowes, if you use a Lowes credit card, you get 5% off all purchases. 

I'm glad to learn that I'm not alone in finding this picture disturbing...

...A three conductor plug servicing a two conductor supply.

Though I don't use tubular track, I greatly admire Tin Man's products and services. The fact that stock has been depleted is testimony enough of the quality. No doubt this would be my go-to vendor for such products if ever there be a need.

Recently replaced a wall receptacle here in the house on the hill because I wanted one that the plugs run out the side parallel to the wall instead of straight out.

Took the old one off (a two slot, no ground receptacle) and found one white wire running to the positive and the same white wire running from the negative and off to parts unknown. I assume, being a complete idiot at this stuff, that the whole circuit is wired somehow in series? 

Regardless, I figured that the worst that would happen is that I would burn the house down, so I installed the new outlet (complete with three pronged receptacles; the ground being connected to nothing) plugged in a small TV, lamp and train transformer.

So far, so good. The light lights, the TV has a picture and the train runs.

As far as using a polarized versus non-polarized plug:

Postwar Lionel did not use polarized plugs (if they even existed).

I am not aware of any Lionel documentation indicating that transformer cord should be installed or replaced with the polarized ribbing on any particular terminal.

There have been comments made on this board about ZW transformers. What about KW or LW, or 1033, or a host of other transformers?

What about being compatible with transformers that were serviced by people who don't read this board?

I will stick with using the cord sets with non-polarized plugs. That matches what Lionel did, and the transformers can easily be put in sync. 

quote:

Regardless, I figured that the worst that would happen is that I would burn the house down, so I installed the new outlet (complete with three pronged receptacles; the ground being connected to nothing) plugged in a small TV, lamp and train transformer.

Hopefully Susan will chime in.

I, too, have never heard anyone recommend replacing a line cord with a polarized plug that can only be inserted one way.

Being able to phase transformers by flipping a plug is key to common ground wiring.

Consistency in internal wiring is no guarantee that any two transformers will be in phase.

Electrical panels have two groups of circuit breakers - one on the left and one on the right. If one of your transformers is plugged into an outlet whose source is the left side, it will be out of phase with another of your transformers plugged into an outlet sourced by the right side.

All is well if two of your transformers are plugged into an outlet strip, but what if one is plugged into an outlet on the other side of the basement to serve a distant accessory, and sourced by an outlet wired on a different circuit on the opposite side of the breaker panel?

...and, tripleo, please have your outlet rewired by an electrician who will properly ground it. Installing a three prong outlet without proper ground can have deadly consequences depending on what someone may plug into it in the future.

Jim

Electrical codes change for our safety.  Because Lionel did it that way back in the day doesn't mean it was the best way by today's standards.  Sorry but I'll stay safe and follow what Susan posted.  Thank you Susan.

If you used a polarized plug, you could "pre-phase" it to modern transformers one time and never have to worry about phasing it again.  The polarized plug will on only fit in the socket one way, and would be phased correctly assuming you took the trouble to do this once when you replaced the plug.

Its a convenience thing...I'm not found of the 3 plug option either, but it could accomplish the same thing as a normal 2 plug polarized option.

...only if all your transformers will be on the same outlet strip - a needless limitation to impose on large layouts. Please see my post above.

Jim

Do not use a plastic power strip. I had one under my aquarium screwed to a wall. I shorted out and started on fire. My aquarium pumps under the tank then caught fire and all the salt water drained out and killed everything including the floor. When the fireman put the small fire out they mentioned not to use plastic power strip. He said they cause a lot of fires. This beautiful reef tank was toast in our last house. Don

I have to agree with Susan as I have studied residential electrical work in vocational technical school for three years, was going to become an electrician if I didn't go into the US Army.

The ground plug is for use only with grounded equipment. Most transformers don't have a need for a 3 prong hook-up.

Also with the ground you can invite trouble into your transformer if a nearby short to ground happens.

For residential work most electricians refer to the wires as hot or neutral(not ground). 

With automotive work the wires are referred to as hot or ground.

Lee Fritz

I had thought this (left and right) for quite a while too, then recently I had a conversation with someone regarding high voltage (oven, heater etc) equipment and how the higher voltage was supplied by having 2 adjacent circuit breakers feed the appliance. 

When I say adjacent circuit breakers, I mean the case where 2 on the same side of the panel have a mechanical bar that links them together (you cannot toggle one without toggling the other).

This would seem to indicate that the alternating phases are actually in an "every other one" type of arrangement as you go down either side of the panel. 

Two together (again the common mechanical bar) can supply a required 220 V to an appliance that needs it (stove, HVAC, etc.) instead of 2 single 110 V lines that would be in phase(not providing the appliances required 220V), but with higher current capacity.

Thoughts?  Is this line of thinking flawed?

-Dave

I'd like to know for sure also.

What I posted has been repeated many times over the years in print by very qualified individuals. If anything is incorrect about this, I would definitely like to know.

Jim

In the USA electrical panels have 240 volts coming in with a common neutral, so between either hot wire and neutral you get 120 volts. Yes it is possible to get 240 volts from your electrical outlets but you are on different sides of the panel feed, so it would be best to see with a digital meter if you have 0 volts or 240 between your two wall receptacles before hooking up any transformers. Use the smaller slot to test voltage with as the wide blade is for neutral.

If you have double the voltage it will seem as though you have higher current. 

The best advice is to be very careful when working with electrical stuff, never ever assume that something is wired correctly until you know for sure.

I had a case where the double receptacle[the guy built the house himself and didn't hire a licensed electrcian] had 240 volts between the two of them(120 volts at each), so if I used a transformer off of one receptacle and a transformer off the second receptacle (as they were in the same wall box)I would get a cross voltage to my tracks if I hooked them up by phasing the transformers as you call it. That is another reason I personally am not that found of phasing transformers. I'd rather buy a large enough transformer the first time, like a ZW.

Lee Fritz

quote:

Electrical codes change for our safety.  Because Lionel did it that way back in the day doesn't mean it was the best way by today's standards.  Sorry but I'll stay safe and follow what Susan posted. 

I think Susan can confirm that using a cord with a polarized plug versus a cord without a polarized plug on a postwar Lionel train transformer is not a matter of evolving code.

Something that I noticed is that electronic equipment from overseas does not always have the polarized plug on the item.

The USA uses the polarized 120 volt receptacle for all new construction.

Not up on what other countries use.

Lee Fritz

Folks: take a look at your service panel. If you have any 220 volt appliances, such as an electric dryer, electric range, or air conditioner, you will see that the circuit is protected by either a double wide breaker, or two breakers that are side by side, with the switch handles bonded together.

There are two buss bars inside your service panel. the contacts for the circuit breakers are arranged in a sawtooth pattern. So every other position is on the opposite pole.  I assume this is done so 220 volt circuits can be established.

Maybe old, fuse based service panels were done differently, I don't know.

quote:

I had a case where the double receptacle[the guy built the house himself and didn't hire a licensed electrcian] had 240 volts between the two of them(120 volts at each), so if I used a transformer off of one receptacle and a transformer off the second receptacle I would get a cross voltage to my tracks if I hooked them up by phasing the transformers as you call it.

If your transformers had nonpolarized (plan) plugs, you could still phase them.

I am just curious, did the builder feed two adjacent duplex recepticals (total four outlets) from seperate lines? Or did he split a single duplex receptical (total two outlets), so each individual outlet was on a seperate line?

Residential panel boards are fed by two hot legs @120v and a neutral, this is known as a single phase service. Modern load centers generally alternate hots adjacently as apposed from left to right to accommodate 240v breakers. This is for load balancing and does not alter polarization.

Phasing toy train transformers is about polarization at the point of use, not load management at the load center.

I must have not been terribly clear in my suggestion before, but CW and Mill City re-stated it a little more clearly.  I edited my original to more clearly state what I was going for.

Found the following on Wikipedia (I know, it's not an electrical site, and needs references, etc.  See the "Breaker arrangement" paragraph)

Wikipedia Electrical Panel

This also seems like a good read/explanation with some pics (one with panel without breakers installed helps shed some light)

-Dave

The person who built the house wired the receptacles with two different hot wires, one hot wire for each duplex style receptacle. Then he wired a dryer receptacle nearby(a foot away) with the same circuit wires from the panel. Guess he wanted to save money on wiring costs but I would not have done it that way.

On a side note the house from what information I could find never had a C.O. or certificate of occupancy from the city county. I'm glad the mortgage company got that bomb, foreclosure!

Lee Fritz

Tin Man asked what the time is, not how to build a clock.  It never fails.

An arguably unessential feature concerning toy train transformers. Polarized two conductor plugs were introduced as an aid to reduce shocks received from changing out lamps in portable lighting devices. The intent is to feed the lamp via the foot rather than the base, which becomes exposed while changing them out.

True. However, it's important to distinguish misinformation. By the way, does anybody know what time it is?

There is no safety benefit to a polarized plug on a plastic case transformer where no metal parts connected to the 120V side of the windings are exposed. Polarized plugs can be a nuisance if the transformer needs to be rephased. Household 240V service is generally referred to as two phase, the two power leads are 180 degrees out of phase when referenced the the neutral. In house wiring, the neutral (white) and ground ( bare or green) are not the same. 

Certainly, you meant single phase.

I look at it as a convenience for me, that's why I suggested it.  Unplug a non-polarized cord and put it on the floor and you have a 50% of plugging it in back and maintaining correct phase unless you mark one side as up or something.  If it were polarized to your correct phase, it's a no brainer since it only fits in the outlet one way.

If you don't like it, don't do it.  It's a suggestion, and I know many people that have done this when mixing post war transformers with modern ones.  I know several people that put dot of paint on the old non-polarized plug that is suppose to mean up or down or whatever their standard is and that works too.

If you like re-phasing your transformers every time you need to plug it in with others after it's been disconnected for awhile, then by all means, do nothing and re-phase them.  It takes a short time anyway.  To me it's just a waste of my time and an inconvenience.

When my post war ZW needed a replacement cord, I phase it one time and used a polarized cord so it would stay that way.  It works every time with my other modern transformers no matter where I setup a temporarily layout with different mixes of transformers.

I also see the point of some that want to keep the post war transformer as original (non-polarized) as well the guys that want the flexibility to flip the cord in the outlet to change the phasing whenever they want to.  If that works for you, all the power to you.

Keep in mind, all modern transformers have polarized plugs so their phase can't be easily changed like the post war ones without some internal rewiring.

quote:

I also see the point of some that want to keep the post war transformer as original (non-polarized) as well the guys that want the flexibility to flip the cord in the outlet to change the phasing whenever they want to.  If that works for you, all the power to you.

I am always looking from the perspective of either doing a repair for someone else, or repairing a transformer for resale. 
For me it isn't about trying to maintain originality.

Its about delivering a transformer that is unquestionably correct, and compatible with other transformers and whatever correct documentation is out there.

My goodness, it looks that we have committed a cardinal sin! I assumed that everyone realized that we informed people that the third prong was not hooked up. In addition, if you use multiple outlets to power your system, and the different outlets are on the other side of the 220main, it is correct they will also be out of phase. It is for this reason that we suggest using a power strip. I appreciate that insight though, and I think it is something we should strongly recommend that ALL 110V equipment should be plugged into a good quality (non plastic I guess) power strip to avoid the potential pitfalls that have so well pointed out here today. I am not sure, but find it hard to believe that one circuit should adequately handle all but the very largest layouts?

My original question was regarding the value of surge protectors in power strips. I guess the answer I feel safe with is it depends on the quality of the power strip.

Well if nothing else we were very successful in getting the blood circulating today! I wish you guys would wear my shoes however, when you get calls because they do not know where to hook up the wires from their transformers to the tracks, or why their train doesn't run if they hook up both their connections on the U terminals, or they can't hook up the wire to the lock-on's because the wires are the wrong color. Or why there transformer shorts out because after all they used the same colored wires everywhere.  The list goes on and on. I do not mind taking the time to try to help these guys, but it is the reason I perhaps attempt to oversimplify things. Someone called this morning to ask if it was ok to use his zw even though the insulation dried off the wires. She asked if I would please replace the cord, because he does not trust anyone in her town to do that. She called the guy she used to replace his fuse panel with circuit breakers, but he was going to charge her $125 to replace the cord.

I have often suggested to folks that they should feel free to ask questions on this forum, but they are afraid they will be made to feel stupid, NOW THAT ABSOLUTLY WOULD NEVER HAPPEN RIGHT?? This does not apply to me believe me, I have very broad shoulders (and everything else for that matter).So please load the shotguns for bear and let it loose!  Unfortunately however, I can see where some people may feel intimidated.

Please do not misunderstand my attitude. I have gained an incredible amount of terrific info from a whole bunch of you folks, and in some cases, I would have failed miserably had you guys not stepped up to the plate. And I will always be very grateful for that.

If a transformer doesn't need a new cord, rather than change the plug I just phase it with my Z-4000 and then put a dab of red paint on the side of the plug corresponding to the long slot. If it's always going to be plugged into the same place (a power strip, for instance), I will also put a dab of paint on the matching side of the receptacle. Easier and cheaper than replacing the plug. 

For the techy guys. Do those supposed surge protectors in power strips really work, and is there a particular brand/model you would recommend?

To add to what Gilly said, the good surge protectors are UL listed and have metallic enclosures.  Look for one that has been tested to a UL standard (even better if the testing was done by UL themselves).  These devices typically contain Metal Oxide Varistor (MOV) transient suppression devices and the MOVs can get very hot when they trigger, which is why the plastic surge suppressors can catch fire.

The good power strips / surge protectors with UL listing are expensive, but they do work. 

Jon, the professionals I speak with, including at the utilities refer to the two hot leads in the breaker box as phases. In reality they are the two ends of a transformer secondary, plus the center tap neutral. The primary of this transformer is connected to one of the phases of a three phase distribution circuit. So it is a center tap single phase feed from the power company that seems to be referred to as two phases. May not be technically accurate, but it is in use.