Prewar Lionel 1588 Clockwork train

Forum member Windupguy has mine at the moment. Maybe James can shoot a picture or two.

I took a couple of pics of Steve's Torpedo (his is much prettier than mine) from different angles. Let me know if you need any other pictures, I'll be happy to take them for you.

Directly over the top, brake lever on the left:

An angled view of the top of the boiler:

Jim,  That is excellent, as it verifies what I thought.  I am doing extensive research on the Torpedoes from Lionel.  The 1588 may be the very first casting, before the 1688E.  Common knowledge that the 1588/1668/1688 all share the same basic casting, with subtle differences thru the separate runs.  

If you look at your shells (Steve's included) they should have a square raised roof hatch, and on the front just under the "smoke plate" there should be an indentation called a "winged keystone" cast into the shell.  The front lower nose should also be the "thin casting", compared to later torpedo shells that got beefed up in that area.  

I don't personally have a 1588, but may be bidding on one.  Right now I am on an iPad, so I can't include a photo of the above mentioned details, but will add photos when I get to my computer.

Thank you for the photo,

teledoc

Windupguy & Steve,  If either of you are wondering what I posted, here are some photos of what I am referring to, with the roof hatch and winged keystone.  From the research I have done so far, these features are "only" on the 1936 original castings, and not the later 1937 thru 1941 casting (the inclusion of 1668 & 1688's), which are all the same basic original casting.

I would love to know someone who actually worked at the Livingston plant, that knew the casting process, and how the molds could have been changed.  If you follow the locos 1588, 1688,1668 through the sequence of issues, you can see the changes, even though they may be missed by most that look at them.  The bottom photo is an actual 1588 wind up, that was from a sale item, and copied for my own reference.  Another thing that I think I am noticing is that the 1588 doesn't have the opening to insert the 249E-1 red lenses, like the later locos.

when I started to read the original ost, one person came to mind that could help, then I saw who the poster was....have to call yourself Doc! 

As a follow up, why did so few wind ups from Lionel not survive.  A few of the 1588 locos I have seen for sale, are just the bodies, without the motors.  The lack of these wind up motors make it a hard decision to attempt any kind of restoration.  Lionel did make five separate wind up locos from 1933-1937, with the first being a carryover from the Ives acquisition, the 1506 steam.

my guess would be over winding, and the WWll scrap drives.

Dave,  I think that would account for the lack of prewar clock works.  It seems that the Lionel are rare to find, but you will find Marx, & Ives units are still around.  The on/off levers are not all in the same location, to adapt one make to another.  There lies the restoration snag.

Well, to add some confusion, here are pictures of the front of the stack of our two different Torpedos.

Exhibit 1, Steve's Loco:

Exhibit 2, My Loco:

Both locomotives have the same roof hatch (forgot to get a picture of that).  I don't know why mine has the winged keystone, yet Steve's doesn't.  I'll be very interested to hear your thoughts on this.

As to the scarcity of Lionel Torpedos, I have a few thoughts.  First, as we are all aware, it is relatively easy to find prewar Marx windups (of the same era as the Torpedo) compared to Lionel windups.  My theory is that Marx had the advantage on low end, windup sets... Louis must have sold tons of them.  By comparison, if someone was willing to spend more money on a Lionel, they would generally be in the market for an electric train set.  However, if you needed to buy a windup in the mid to late 30's, Marx would have the lowest price.  No way to know actual production numbers, but Marx probably sold many, many times more windup CV's before WWII than the number of mechanical trains Lionel sold.

Second, I've also noticed that it is much easier to find a windup Torpedo shell compared to a complete locomotive.  After working on and examining Steve's engine - and now having it back for a different type of motor repair - it makes me think (and I hope nobody takes offense) that the Lionel windup motor had two or three weak points that probably failed quickly and more often than the Marx motor.  Now, before I get run out of town on a rail, let me state that the motor Lionel put in the Torpedo is quite robust in many ways.  It has a much stronger mainspring than Marx, and the motor and gears are well made... except one.  The whistle (which also acted as the governor) is driven by a skinny gear cast on the back of one of the front drivers.  I think that this part may have been prone to stripping, and once it was gone, the locomotive would run away and generally be useless.  In addition, Steve's motor has now "wadded up" the sheet metal ratchet pawls - a part that appears to be less substantial that Marx pawls, even though Lionel has the much stronger spring.  Finally, the old problem of Zinc Pest may have contributed to the demise of some motors, too... both with Marx and Lionel.

Of course, all that is speculation on my parts, and I welcome other thoughts and opinions.

Final thought... my Torpedo is a hybrid.  I bought the shell, and installed a Marx motor of the same vintage.  That allows me to have a Lionel Torpedo that I can run around my windup layout without any worry about damaging a hard-to-find Lionel motor:

Edit - Put in the correct pictures of my locomotive.

I never had heard of Lionel making windups until I read it on another of your posts.I'd guess Lionel added the winged Keystone later to add detail? I agree with using the more common Marx motor, if the lionel's are hard to find. as long as you can run it and have fun like it was meant to be. all this wind up talk is gonna make me want one of my own....wonder if that wind up CV I spotted in the antique store a few months ago is still there...

Wind up trains have a unique charm!  The CV - in any variation - is a good, reliable locomotive.  I recommend going to that antique store tomorrow with a fist full of cash...

Now for some videos of the wonderful Lionel windup Torpedo in action!

Here is Steve's Torpedo after we added the custom governor, but before the unfortunate ratchet failure:

...and my Marx powered Torpedo (older video):

Edit:  I'm not sure why the second video doesn't want to work when it is embedded.  Click here for the Youtube link.

James,  I just watched YOUR 1588 and love the "torpedo launch"....couldn't stop laughing at it.  Absolutely funny.  I would be interested in how you adapted the Marx wind up motor to fit inside your 1588 shell, and how much trouble it would be, if I could scrounge up both pieces. 

As far as the distinguishing characteristics of the roof hatch, keystone, etc., I am beginning to think that the ABSOLUTE FIRST casting was on the 1688E that had the open forward cab windows, which has the roof hatch, keystone, and open windows.  Then I am going to presume (not assume) that the 1588 was the next casting to take place, and the first mold was modified to fill in the E unit slot, and make a wind up slot, and the windows were closed off.  Only the very first issue of the 1688e from 1936 (not later from 1937 on up) had the distinctive open cab windows.  Of the two books I have, (Doyle Prewar & Greenberg 0 & 00 1901-1942), the Greenberg book is the only one to spell out the open window version.  The Doyle book apparently didn't realize that it existed, and wasn't published in the list.

Then the next following casting for the 1688E had the mold changed again, to eliminate the windows, but kept the roof hatch and keystone, as I do have that loco also, in my collection.  I need to repair the motor to finish that one.  Here is a photo of the inside of the shell, showing where the windows were filled in.  This has the roof hatch and keystone, but windows filled in. 

Your theory on the Marx being more plentiful, compared to the Lionel sounds very reasonable and the most logical explanation.  If you wouldn't mind, I would like to email you off the forum to talk more about these little engines, and the torpedo shells in general.

Please feel free to email me, my email address is listed in my profile.  Of course, that extends to anyone who would like to discuss some aspect of windup trains, I'm always happy to chat about the clockworks!

PS - If I can get some time tomorrow, I'll disassemble my Torpedo and take pictures to show how I made the motor mounts and brake lever.

James,  It's late here, but I will email you to continue this discussion.  I may not get to it right away, but will do.  Just found out I have a bad kitchen faucet that I will have to replace tomorrow, which will tie me up.....LOL

Another example of Lionel clockwork.

Steve

It's Ives cousin

Steve, Glad you could join us again....  Yes, Lionel made 5 clockworks between 1933 and 1937, shortly after Ives went under, and they bought out American Flyers share.  They were the 1506 (sometimes listed as 1506L) non-Mickey Mouse, 1933-1934; 1508 in 1935; 1511 in 1936-37; **1588 in 1936-37; and finally the 1816 diesel in 1935-37.  They are few and far from being readily available in today's market for a fair price.  If you can find any of them, in running condition, and decent shape, you will pay dearly to obtain one.  As discussed with James, the clockwork mechanism is the hardest part, but the bodies can be found.  Thus, you have to resort to using another clockwork typically from a Marx.

I may have a line on a 1588 shell at a decent price, without motor, and would like to see what James can come up with, with what he has done.  Then I would have to be in the hunt for a working clockwork motor, that can be fitted into the shell.  I have to wait and see what happens.  OF course that goes along with the 9 other restorations I have sitting around, unfinished....LOL

It's interesting about the "keystone" being on one shell, and not on the other, that James has (his and yours).  That is all in the various castings that took place with those torpedo shells, from 1936 up to 1941.  I am referring to both the clockwork and the motorized versions of the 1688/88E and the 1668/68E's.  Too many exist, but I am narrowing them down.

Steve, Just for your info, and don't know if you do eBay, but the A.R. Fergusson items you are looking for are available from the last time I looked. 

Vienna Station has/had a 1588 shell available. Item PP14, listed in their "projects". Well worth 8 bucks. trainmarket.com

This will be a lengthy post, but hopefully it will be useful to anyone who has a Lionel 1588 shell laying around that they would like to repower with a Marx windup motor.

My goal in this repower was to install the Marx motor with minimal modifications to the Lionel shell.  This included not making new holes in the shell for either the brake lever or key.  The first step was to make motor mounts that would line up the motor's mainspring hub with the existing keyhole in the shell.  I started with the rear motor mount.  It is cut out of 22 gauge steel, and has a slight offset bent into it so the motor is at the proper height.  A hole was drilled in the shell's original rear motor mount (the only shell modification needed for this project) and a single 8-32 machine screw holds the new motor mount in place.  The machine screw does double duty, since it is also used to attach the rear coupler / drawbar.  A custom coupler was made using a Marx tab & slot coupler with an extension soldered in place, and bent so it would line up properly.

Closeup of the rear motor mount:

The modified coupler.  I run Marx cars behind my locomotive, but it wouldn't be hard to make a drawbar compatible with the original Lionel tender.  The motor mount is held in place by the machine screw and a single nut, then the new coupler put in place on the screw, and two jam nuts tightened together to keep it in place while allowing it to move freely:

Next was the front mount.  It was a bit more complicated.  I made a custom mount that attached to an unusual Marx crossmember that I had in the parts bin... at least as far as windups go.  It is similar to the one used on an electric 999; or one could be fabricated using a common Marx crossmember as a starting point (I did just that for my 999 windup project).  Regardless, a small plate was cut from 22 gauge steel to connect to the Lionel's front mounting holes, and a round steel spacer was made to connect that plate to the Marx crossmember on the motor.  A small hole was drilled in the crossmember, and it was bolted to the new mount with a 6-32 machine screw.  The new front mount is attached to the shell with 4-40 machine screws - I may have had to tap the shell to fit (this was done a few years ago, so my memory is fuzzy on the details).  The Marx crossmember had to be bent slightly in front to go over the Lionel siderod guides... although I could have removed them, I really didn't want to modify the shell unless absolutely necessary.

The Marx crossmember with the mounting hole drilled in the bottom.  The front part has been slightly bent to clear the Lionel siderod guides:

The front mount.  4-40 machine screws hold the plate to the shell, and 6-32 machine screws are used to hold the round spacer to the plate, as well as to attach the Marx crossmember.  You can see the original Lionel siderod guides, too:

The Marx crossmember & motor in place:

The motor mounted in the shell, as seen from the bottom:

Finally, the brake lever.  The original Marx brake lever was bent over in a U shape.  A new brake lever was cut out of 22 gauge sheet steel (see a pattern here?).  It connects to the original Marx brake lever, and sticks up through the existing slot in the top of the Torpedo shell.  A small cotter pin holds it in place.

A view of the brake lever attached to the Marx motor:

A closeup of the brake lever sticking up through the shell.  The cotter pin keeps the lever up in position:

And that's it.  The remotored Torpedo is ready for service:

I have several 1588's as well as both types of wind up streamliners from Lionel (one has a whistle, the other a C battery powered light. 

Steamer posted:

I never had heard of Lionel making windups until I read it on another of your posts.I'd guess Lionel added the winged Keystone later to add detail? I agree with using the more common Marx motor, if the lionel's are hard to find. as long as you can run it and have fun like it was meant to be. all this wind up talk is gonna make me want one of my own....wonder if that wind up CV I spotted in the antique store a few months ago is still there...

The Mouse That Saved Lionel, whether true or not, offers an insight into the workings of Lionel during the depression.  Clockwork Lionel certainly played some roll in the survival of the company.

James,

A friend has a complete 1588 set for sale. Sure it has been restored, however, the locomotive has a completely functioning Lionel clockwork. I'm waiting for his return email.....You Betcha!

Hope you get it, Pappy... post pics if you do!

Windupguy (James), I bought a Marx 401 cheap ($11.95 total with shipping), and already tore the windup motor out of the shell.  The shell had a broken cowcatcher, so it got dumped.  Only minor rusting in a few spots, and the motor winds up and runs flawlessly.  Did a trial fit into the 1588 shell, and it looks like it will work out nicely.  I just have to figure out exactly how I am going to fashion the lever, and get it centered into the 1588 shell.  I have to work on that, but only after I get my other projects pretty much completed.  I'm in the stages of restoring three 1681 locos, and two 1688E torpedos.  So for now, the 1588 will have to sit in the "Holding Yard". 

Thanks for posting the motor as you modified it, and it will come in handy.

Great!  The riser gear motor that is used in the 401 is a durable, simple, good running motor.  I look forward to seeing your progress.  If you need pictures from other angles, just let me know and I'll be happy to oblige.  Glad to know I'm not the only person with a lot of "irons in the fire"!

Irons in the fire....yup, got lots of them.  Also have Prewar 657 caboose that needs finishing, stripped and needs repaint.  Then we have Postwar stuff that has been sitting around needing some finishing touches on.  Two 1615 locos, need reassembling, S2 2020 turbine that needs wheels pressed on, and a few other parts for another 2020.  That's what I can think of, off the top of my head, but it's all fun restoring this stuff.

I have an original 1588 Lionel windup set. It has one problem that I am trying to rectify. The one gear is striped and needs replaced. I can't find it anywhere. If anyone knows where I can purchase one (or 2) please let me know. I want this to run again. Seems a shame to have it sit in a box to die.

PS is there a parts book for the 1588 windup?

No parts book, wheels are (were) available. The gear you show is a typical spot for failure due to the zinc pest. I have toyed with the idea of casting this in pewter to see if it would work or find some one with a 3D metal printer!.

The gear shown only is needed to operate the whistle, and often the impeller (which is zinc as well) is swollen and not working as well.

Thanks for the reply.

FYI, This gear seems to be the intermediary gear which slows the engine to a normal speed. It connects the impeller and the windup part. When it is not connected the engine fly's off the track.

There is a governor of sorts in these motors as some w-u locos did not have the whistle (streamliner had a ahistle OR light.

On this particular motor, the whistle is also the governor.  Without the whistle, there is nothing to control the speed of the locomotive and it will run wild... as PSPORT has already discovered.  Steve's Torpedo (shown in one of my previous posts) was missing the whistle entirely, and I had to fabricate a governor to make it useable.

I don't know of a source for a reproduction of this gear.  It may be possible to adapt a gear from a more common windup motor (such as Marx) or - as a last resort - make a gear.  Likewise, if the impeller has succumbed to zinc pest, one could be machined.  Unfortunately, I have never had my hands on the whistle part of one of these motors, so I don't know if any Marx whistle parts may be adapted to it.

Trivia - Marx either licensed or bought the patent from Lionel for the whistling windup motor.  A friend of mine discovered this when researching the patent numbers on the Marx windups.  Marx didn't make their first windup whistler until 1942.