Priced Out Of New Purchases

Price is not the only problem. Spending a heap of money on something that has no parts replacement base bothers me just as much as price. Probably even more.

That is a compounding of the issue for me. I can live without more purchases but it struck me that if I am unwilling to go off budget, the door to new purchases is pretty well closed which is something I had not experienced since I was a kid. Sort of a full circle.

It's getting there for me as well.  It really doesn't seem to be the way to make sure the hobby continues into the next century.  

 

--Greg

Using your example, is it not a case of how many items you can purchase, not the price per item? I mean, unless your train budget for the year was $100 you could buy one of the atlas cars, perhaps instead of several less expensive cars on blow out. I agree that some prices seem to grow, and I am not suggesting people must buy 1000 engines, but even on a modest budget of $30 per month, one could purchase several of these cars in a year.

I run conventional. For engines I buy used or buy Williams. I add RS4 units for sound. That way I have things I can not otherwise afford.

 

When I get further along I will buy some Korber buildings though. I will not cheap out completely. 

 

 

Dale H

I was using the Atlas car as an illustrative example of the overall trend that specifically seems to be most prevalent in engines. Again, its not the end of the universe as we know it but in terms of expanding the motive power roster Williams seems to be a court of last resort. I think some sticker shock occurred when I looked at track systems as well since it had been many a year since I had mulled over any expansion plans. My end run around the price increases has been to buy basket cases and repair them. But again, I was wondering if anyone else is in the same boat. 

You can probably imagine the problem our manufacturers (and dealers) face: 

 

1.  The core group in this segment of the hobby (O gauge toy trains) is an aging demographic.

 

2.  That group (1) often enough has already pretty well satisfied many/most of its needs by now, or (2) is facing or actually making significant changes in life (retirement, downsizing, etc.) that may limit discretionary dollars for hobbies.

 

If the above is true, then it follows that runs of items have to be made smaller to adjust to the potential market, and smaller runs means a larger price to the consumer.  These guys are making the stuff for fun; they are making it to make some sort of profit (perfectly reasonable and understandable).

 

Now, if you were CEO of a toy train manufacturing firm, what would you do?

 

But for the record:  I do understand what you're saying, Electroliner, and I'm absolutely certain your situation is not unique.

Nothing wrong with Williams, as they are a superior product at a great price.

I run all my Lionel Legacy and MTH Railking with them.

Again I was not trying to point a finger or criticize manufacturers as that would be ( from a pragmatic point of view) a moot point as I am not concerned as to the why or wherefore ..it is what it is and I accept this. It just pretty much locked me out.  

Not to mention, the followers of Atlas who do have plenty of train funds are demanding very accurate, detailed, road-specific models.  How do you crank out inexpensive stuff if your customers want perfect models, plus updated electronics?

Put some quality and quality control in the product. Stock some parts for people who purchased expensive items and want to keep them running

 

Standardize things so products from different manufacturers work and play well with each other. No more excuses and petty bickering.

 

Dale H

Well, you have to assume that the manufacturers are not stupid, as in, they have to price 'em to make money.  Finding that sweet spot, though, as far as quality to match the expected quantities, etc., is the elusive beast.

 

I'm big-time into recreational flying. It's somewhat very similar to model railroading in that it's an aging demographic and the individual costs are high compared to other activities. Young folks don't want to spend the time and discipline to learn how to fly when they can "fly" using a video game. New aircraft cost several hundred thousand dollars.  But there are ways around it. You can build an airworthy aircraft for less than 1/2 the cost of a new car if you have the time and inclination. Today's aircraft kits are so detailed that literally anyone can build one. You don't have to be a master machinist.

 

I solve my railroad interests as some others have noted. I buy Williams and used or from eBay if I'm in the mood for something. My one excess was a few years ago to purchase the PW Celebration B&O set. I'm glad I did it, (love the colors), but will probably not do it again unless I saw one at a garage sale in the box for <$200.  ;-)

 

One thing I don't understand is that there are FAR more model railroaders than pilots (only 615,000 in the entire US of A of any rating, whether active or not) but the cost of a magazine subscription (from any publisher, any facet of RR) is ~$35/year.  Yet I can subscribe to just about any aviation mag for $12-15/year. Not griping; just pointing out that it's not all supply and demand.

I suspect I am not alone in being locked out of new purchases and my curiosity if others found themselves in the same boat prompted this post. I am not concerned about such abstract things like the future of the hobby or what can be done to bring costs down. I am not responsible for that stuff and my opinions are a pretty moot point. 

Before I retired price was not the first concern when looking at my model trains....but it seems as soon as my disposable income went down, as soon as the financial crisis happened(with some industries having issues because of deflation) model train prices took a hard upturn in price. Some of that is an illusion because of my reduction of hobby funds.....but if you look at magazine ads just 10 years ago.....prices have advanced  at a rate fast than inflation. It's OK with me as I over bought during the hey days of the 1990's but it does not bode well for new folks coming in.....at least until our huge collections re-enter the market!!

 

The way I deal with it is buying used....often abused trains. But I enjoy painting, decaling and even scratch building, really cheap, so most times I have more than enough to keep me busy.

My take on this has always been, I buy what I can afford. Lucky for me, I'm not enamored with the new scale sized items, nor the latest electronics. The traditionally sized train items are still reasonably priced (especially used) for the most part so long as you are not seeking bona-fide collectibles.

 

I view my trains as impressionist paintings... the artist's were creating representations or "impressions" of a scene. Precision accuracy was not the main goal. The postwar design traditional trains are the same: representations. I can live with that.

 

And with a small layout, I'm not missing out by not using one of the digital control systems. For generic sounds, I have an MRC sound system with extra speakers I wired into it to increase the volume. I could be miserable thinking about what I can't afford or I can be happy with what I can afford. I've opted with the later.

 

But obviously there are many hobbyists today who don't agree with that assessment. The newer trains are from expensive new tooling with a more limited market. You are not just paying for the train car here: You are helping to pay for the investment in the tooling since the companies have to factor that into the prices.

 

Like others have said, if the newer scale trains are your taste, then you probably have to limit your purchases. Or wait for a reduction sale where you might not get the road name you wanted, but the price is more affordable. Heck, even traditional operators have to make those decisions.

 

I got back into trains 24 years ago and was hooked. As much as I like my trains and the hobby, I decided about 10 years ago that I was spending way too much money on trains.

 

I cut back on my purchases by half or more. I decided I needed to enjoy what I had, rather than always looking forward to buying something new.

 

Early last year before I retired, I did review my "wish list" and purchased a number of items that had been on it for years.

 

I am basically done with buying trains. This year I have spent about $150 on new purchases.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think you may have a great point there, and that's part of the reason for so many LHSs going under.  I went into my favorite LHS last week.....it's a step back in time.  I love the place, but his inventory turns have to be less than 1.  I've seen some items on the shelves for several years, and the owner's assistant told me there's more inventory in the back room.  No web site, no nationwide shipping.....I don't know how these places do it, but I suspect that all buyers' needs could be fulfilled for a couple years if retail inventory was all that was available.

I was looking at the ads for structures and it seems the same trend applies. I was reading an ad for a pretty neat looking structure and the description was that it was cast in hydrocal plaster so I am thinking as I read along, ah, this one is affordable..the price? Roughly $130.00 with shipping. Thank heaven for Plasticville or Ameri-Towne..another example of having come full circle in this hobby. I must be in some sort of alternate universe in terms of pricing and affordability, not to belabor the subject. I wonder if there will be a trend in scratch-building for us retirees..we do have the time, more so than the possibility of blowing the bottom line out of our monthly budget. Seems ironic since our generation brought O scale back to life.

There are people in this hobby with very deep pockets, I am not one of them.

 

I love big scale steam but at the prices of new I just can't afford them. So I buy used or at a deep discount. If it is not half of msrp then I don't buy it but I have quite the collection of the steam engines I want. 

 

Being retired and having my pension cut in half I have to look for deals and so far I am very happy.

 

The deals are out there, you have to be patient and keep looking.

Good quality models have never been inexpensive relative to the period in which they were offered. For example, I recall Lionel's 2322 Virginian Train Master listed at $65 in the catalog when it was introduced....not an insignificant amount for the 1960s. I also remember when the MPC 8550 CNJ GP9 first appeared on the shelf of my local train store with a price of $44.50 in 1975. Again, that amount doesn't seem like much now but, to a high school student on a very strict budget relying on an allowance and odd jobs, that was a lot of money back then. Heck, I remember how hard I had to scrimp and save to buy that Athearn HO SDP40 I had wanted so badly for about $17. It's all relative. 

 

Bob    

Well, my refrigerator went on Christmas eve.  The repair guy just left and it cost me $199.94, not counting spoiled food. That could have been a nice couple of items on my layout. Oh well. 

Chip, from a demand standpoint, I agree with you on your examples of the LIRR C-420 and MTH RS-1's. There are other examples too. The only reason here I can think of is caution on the part of the train makers. Still, if you have a product, any product, that sells out early in the catalog year, that might be an indication (as with Polar Express) that there is a demand for this item, and might warrant another production run - even a limited one - especially since the paint masks are already made.

 

But I wholeheartedly disagree with your use of the term "junk." Now, I'm not a big fan of the plastic framed, single-motored Lionel RS-1. But early K-Line (s-2's, MP-15's, Alco FA's) has been called "junk" here on this forum as well as RMT, newer starter Lionel product, and Lionel MPC.

 

My grandfather used to say "junk" was something you paid too much for, and didn't work the way it was supposed to. By that definition, there are many high-end expensive trains that qualify to be called "junk." I've never once had to return any of my trains back to the manufacturer ever. I may be buying what some call "junk" but it's not junk to me, and I've gotten my money's worth.

 

The new RMT S-4 is a nice improvement of the former K-Line S-2 and I'm very happy it was made. As with the RMT RDC car. Neither are junk in my book. I've have Lionel and K-Line starter set locos with 22+ years of running on them and they still run. I've have MPC locos with original gears I bought used and are still running. Not junk in my book.

 

I can't argue with anyone that MTH starter sets are quality. But they are more expensive and do not have the Lionel name recognition. Lionel knows that have to price things in a range that will not scare away new customers, while enticing them to expand on the starter set.

 

Whether anyone understands it, by Lionel's own admission, Polar Express is the BEST selling train set in the entire history of Lionel. So there is obviously a market for the set. I'm sure everyone who purchases a Polar Express set is not a participating member of this or any train forum.

>>>A simple question that is not meant to be a launching pad for controversy. Williams seems to be my last resort.<<

 

Why not try the secondary market?  EBay, Train Shows.. Places where you'll easily find popular new items from recent years past selling at a fraction of its original cost.. For many, its the only intelligent way to buy trains these days

Joe

Same old topic warmed over.

 

Really not all that different from other purchases. You have to plan a budget and try to stick with it. Also, choose one road name, theme, or area (e.g, tinplate) to model. Try to avoid the willy-nilly mass purchases. Ask yourself, "do I really need this?" If you have lots of stuff sitting unused in boxes, sell them!     I think all of these things can help contribute to saving $$ and being able to afford what you want.

 

 

Electroliner,

   Although I am pretty well set in my retierment package, however I know exactly what you are talking about.  I had a big decission to make this year, I wanted a Silver Presidental Tin Plate train for Christmas this year and I needed a medium sized motor home type vehicle for my gun dog training retierment business also.  You guessed it, no Presidental Tin this year, and sense I financed the motor home for the next 2 years, it puts my Presidental Tin about 3 years out. I am not crying the blues by any means, and I know I am probably in a different income bracket than you might be, however I understand what you are saying.  Money management when you look at this hobby has become more

critical, I now go to more train shows than I ever did before and last year I purchased

some well cared for used RealTrax for the inside loop of my Christmas layout from one of the vendors at one of the bigger train shows.  Train shows in our area have some

serious deals, like the rebuilt KW I purchased for just over $50.00.  For running my street cars, bumper cars & small Tin Plate that to me was a serious no brainer purchase.  If you really want to keep the cost way down, the train shows are the way to do it on our area.  Even new starter sets are available for real decent money at the shows.  I go to more and more of them as time goes along.

PCRR/Dave

 

The GG-1 you see is a new Williams, purchased at the Train show, along with the RealTrax inside track loop.

 

 

Thats what I do but the subject was new purchases being out of my reach which there is some amount of loss involved that I feel, not that it overly concerns me but it is what it is. I think as we age into retirement or are retired or some day will retire, the hobby has not lost it's luster, simply its affordability in terms of new product has significantly diminished at this time on a overall basis. It is good to hear I am not alone in this in one sense and in another, its a bit ( mildly) depressing in terms of being priced out of new purchases. But..life goes on and the overall impact of that reminds me of being a kid again..looking at those catalogs and not going much further than being fascinated. 

Interesting Thread.

I too have had to cut back on spending. But I got a #7 Galloping Goose w PS-3 for Christmas !

Will I be ordering a Vision line Big Boy? Absolutely not. If it took 2 years to show Up I couldn't save up for it in time. Some folks can afford it, I can't.

But on the other hand I am eagerly awaiting the Imperial Railking Challenger in Rio Grande.

Yes, I have nearly all the money in savings now for it. And yes, I started toward that when I saw it in the catalog.

 

And I understand where electroliner is at. I recall not being able to buy a model Rocket kit in the early 70's - It was $12.00 plus mailing.

I currently have a 2X upscale of that same rocket, I paid nearly $150 for the kit a few years ago when I had more cashflow.

 

Times are tough for many right now. Manufacturers are aware of that and are reducing what they offer, but they still have to offer for all levels of the hobby.

So there will be Expensive items and not so expensive items.

Buy what you can afford and work with it.

 

PS I need to work a way to get some of the new Weaver Catalog Troop train cars. They fill holes in my Military train very well, but at $90 each it's going to be difficult.

Everybody experiences this. How you deal with it is what measures you as a person.

 

Is there any possibility of taking a part time job to bring in a little extra cash, so you could afford things like this? I know it's not always feasible due to distance or health issues... A certain segment of the population does tell us that if we want something, we should work hard and earn it.

Russ

I knew the writing was on the wall when I saw an engine that suited me but was not immediately affordable in my budget..so I did a monthly set aside to gather up the purchase price. By the time the coffer was filled that train had left the station as a sell out Dang. Maybe some enlightened company will lease new product to me for a reasonable monthly fee and I can still afford those new glasses so I can type out these comments without spell check.  

It is the only way I buy trains anymore.  I refuse to spend a $1K+ on a new engine. Now, I have made an exception to my $1K+ rule, but it was an item I really wanted and had been searching for, so even though it pained me greatly, at the end of the day I had what I wanted.  The used trains at other sources cost half to a third of new, most are lightly run or have minimal use, and then were put back in the box.  Those are perfect for me. 

Just like you, I am not one of those, so I have to find other sources.  People with more money than sense!  But I love them, they are the best deals!  Like you, I have been rewarded greatly for being patient.

 

A great source for buying trains is this website.  I've gotten a ton of great stuff here for awesome deals.  It was the original reason I joined.

 

I can afford to buy whatever I want but choose to be wise with my money.  I would love to have a new Lionel Legacy UP H-7, but I will wait for a deal.  One will come along...

 

It scares me to see train prices exceeding $2K for some items.  I just can't justify, only because it is me, ever paying that for an item (self imposed limited train budget and other things are more important).  Others can; I am happy for them.  Because at the end of the day, we are all happy and there will still be a source of trains for each of us-for me, the secondary market and for them, the manfr. 

 

 

 

 

I've only been back in 3 rail for about 12 years now but I felt priced out back then. I can count the items purchased new on both hands since. 

If you look back the prices in the '90s I think it was even worse. Many items priced in the 4 figures and nowhere as nice as current offerings.

 

Pete

Diabetes, a heart condition complete with stent, recovering from cancer. As a retiree I worked hard, maybe too hard and neglected other areas of life but that was my choice but working a second job just for model trains seems like a stretch when it comes to family obligations etc. If it benefited the whole family, then I could see that option being a reasonable one. Its just gotten pretty expensive for ours truly in relation to other aspects of being self responsible etc

Chipset

 

With the exception of the smoking item, one should give up their model trains before enacting any of the other items on that list.

 

(I hope your list was tongue-in cheek!)

I've been priced out of NEW trains from the beginning. I buy used.
I can count the number of new train purchases on one hand.

You can still find a few good buys from time to time.  Just bought a Williams GP38 for around a $100 from Trainworld.  It was painted for GT, some other roads were more expensive.  Mine will be repainted so it worked out great.

 

In general I won't buy any locomotive that costs over $300.  Now that Williams is offering some new locos with sound my choices are looking better.

Chipset,

 

if I had to abide by most of your rules, just kill me now.  A shower every other day? Are you kidding Me!!  You must be one of those at York I complain about, the non-bathers.

 

It really makes me feel better to know I am not the only frugal one in this hobby!

Electoliner what have you started?  This has become the holy treatise on life lessons...

 

To answer your questions I believe the pricing of model trains is realistic and normal.  There have always been items I felt were too expensive, but I am good at finding my niche.

 

Not much different than the automobile market.  I will not buy a Lexus 450 because I prefer to buy a Toyota Avalon at 2/3 the price.  Same car, different name plates.  My Dad could never buy a Lincoln so he bought a Ford Galaxy.

 

No doubt about it - a $70.00 gondola is expensive.  A $2500 Vision line is way too expensive.  I could find the money but it would cost me in other areas of my life and I choose not to do that.   

 

I have lots to do on my layout.  It keeps me very happy and I continue to spend money on the items I want to improve upon.  I am happy with my little niche in life and I don't really dwell on things I simply will not splurge on.  I'll let the others grab all the high end toys and read about them here....