I read a lot of posts saying how important it is to attact new modelers. I'm also seeing the prices of new releases, such as the Lionel/Flyer U-33c at close to $500, cars often run around $50 or more.
My question is, how can "we" expect to attact new people when prices have gotten so high?
I thought that manufacturing went to China to help keep prices down; I just don't see this happening...or am I missing something?
Mark in Oregon
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Gee, I don't know...aside from price reductions on some truly mass market consumer products such as flat screen TVs and computers, seems to me prices have gone up on most everything ranging from gasoline to the food you put in your tummy. No reason I can think of for limited consumer items like toy trains to reverse that trend.
This same topic comes up on a more than regular basis on this and other forums, and the solution is that there is no solution. And, no, bringing manufacturing back to the U.S. will most definitely not solve the problem.
But the good news is that there is something available in this hobby for just about every hobby budget. Most starter sets are reasonably priced, and if one shops around a bit there are always good deals available on most other items.
This has never been a "cheap" hobby. If you want the good stuff with all the bells and whistles, you're going to have to budget for it.
Others can pontificate in more detail if they care, but I'm just not willing to rehash a topic that has been covered to death in recent years. Besides, the Steelers are on TV now. 
I have to say I find your last paragraph somewhat dismissive. It seems to me that, as "Editor-in-Chief" of a publication that relies on readership ( both current and future), you would be a little more open to discussion.
Guess I picked the wrong day (Sunday) to bring this up...
Mark in Oregon
I'm completely open to discussion, but really don't feel inclined to rehash, in depth, a topic that has been covered many, many times here. Others are certainly more than capable to respond in depth. I touched on the key basics.
The answer lies in the secondary market. Both new, old stock and used "O" gauge trains are readily available. The days of five dollar cars may be gone, but in my area, there are still decent non-operating cars to be had for $10-$15 each. Plenty of good running engines in the fifty dollar range. Transformers such as the 1033 or 1044 can be had for around thirty dollars that have been checked and had their cords replaced.
That leaves track.
The problem with our hobby is the emphasis on the high end, both new and used.
Someone starting out doesn't need original postwar 6464 boxcars in cherry condition, or collector grade postwar berkshires.
6014 boxcars and 2018 steamers are a fine start.
I just noticed that this is posted under "S" gauge. I am not that familar with the "S" gauge market, I expect much of what I wrote above holds true there too.
"Ain't nuthin' cheap no more" is the simple answer.
The Flyer U33C can best be decried as a "full featured" locomotive. Command, sound, smoke, lights.
The Lionel O equivalent MSRP's at $530.
Even a DCC/sound Athearn SD70ACe (the closest comparable 6-wheeled truck loco available right now) is $300. Conventional DC $200.
Lionel says they're working on an entry level set for Flyer. It remains to be seen if, when and what price point it winds up as.
But then, perhaps model railroading was never really inexpensive.
When I entered S in 1985, the AM FP7 could be had for $129. HO diesels were going for $50-$60 back then. Now a single DC FP7 is $235.
Going further back to the middle 1960's, I had to siphon off money from my 5 buck a week allowance (which was to pay for lunch and school supplies)in order to afford the $13 for a Tyco/Mantua Pacific kit. The $27 for the RTR model was out of my reach. Took me a little over a month as I recall.
Rusty
I see a current thread on the O gauge group, talking about the $2200 Centipede, so I guess I'm not the only one who wonders about this.
I just wonder if the hobby will be able to survive, or will it price it's way out of existence...
Mark in Oregon
quote:I see a current thread on the O gauge group, talking about the $2200 Centipede, so I guess I'm not the only one who wonders about this.
I just wonder if the hobby will be able to survive, or will it price it's way out of existence...
More power to those who want a $2200 Centipede and can afford it.
It holds absolutely no interest for me.
I just noticed that this is posted under "S" gauge. I am not that familar with the "S" gauge market, I expect much of what I wrote above holds true there too.
I failed to notice that this was posted in the S gauge forum, although given the recent difficulties that the S gauge market has encountered in terms of production capability, I can well understand that the same market forces are at work...perhaps even more so since the S market overall is significantly smaller than O (or HO, or N).
There was a time in the not-so-distant past when tiny Z scale items were worth their weight in gold in terms of cost. Not sure how that market is today, but I recall seeing a recent ad for a new Z scale locomotive that was, in my view at least, pretty reasonably priced at around $120.
I don't let pricing bother me all that much. I know what I can afford and not afford, and by limiting my choices in roadnames and eras, I am able to pretty much keep things in line. And if an item I want costs too much (in my view), I have a simple choice to make: Either save up to buy it, take a chance and wait for it to be discounted somewhere, or pass on the purchase altogether.
I got to go with Mr. Allen. There is no hobby that has had cost go down that I can think of.
Besides the Manning boys are getting ready to kick some butt! (Hopefully).
Larry
I failed to notice that this was posted in the S gauge forum, although given the recent difficulties that the S gauge market has encountered in terms of production capability, I can well understand that the same market forces are at work...perhaps even more so since the S market overall is significantly smaller than O (or HO, or N).
And yet, we survive! 
Rusty
Yeah, the situation is pretty well analyzed above. (It does seem, though, that we should have seen at least a temporary breathing room when trains were initially outsourced, doesn't it?. Maybe the prices just rose more slowly than they otherwise would have.)
My family couldn't afford the $79.50 that Gilbert asked for the North Coast Limited set that I desperately wanted in 1956. When it was reissued in 1992 the price was $795. And that didn't include track and transformer, as the 1956 offering had.
I guess I wasn't clear enough on my first post. I'm in my mid-50's, and have been in the hobby since the late '60's, so I know how things have changed.
The point I thought I was making is this: what's going to happen to this hobby when the average Joe walks into his LHS and realizes that that new Lionel-made loco and a handful of cars is going to run close to a grand. Just the train. He still has to purchase a power supply, and track, and even after all that, he will then have to consider future $ spent for scenery, etc.
My guess is he'll walk out with an RC airplane...
I hope I'm wrong on this, but I also hope you see my point.
Mark in Oregon
... what's going to happen to this hobby when the average Joe walks into his LHS and realizes that that new Lionel-made loco and a handful of cars is going to run close to a grand. Just the train. He still has to purchase a power supply, and track, and even after all that, he will then have to consider future $ spent for scenery, etc.
Mark in Oregon
If he's really interested in model railroading, for whatever reason, I guess he'll explore some other scale where items may be more in line with his budget. However, there are also a lot of people in this hobby--more than you might imagine--with a good amount of discretionary income who can afford even $1,000+ train sets and more. I'm not one of them, but they are out there and I have met a good many of them over the years.
... what's going to happen to this hobby when the average Joe walks into his LHS and realizes that that new Lionel-made loco and a handful of cars is going to run close to a grand. Just the train. He still has to purchase a power supply, and track, and even after all that, he will then have to consider future $ spent for scenery, etc.
Mark in Oregon
If he's really interested in model railroading, for whatever reason, I guess he'll explore some other scale where items may be more in line with his budget. However, there are also a lot of people in this hobby--more than you might imagine--with a good amount of discretionary income who can afford even $1,000+ train sets and more. I'm not one of them, but they are out there and I have met a good many of them over the years.
The thing is that the hobby is a journey, not a destination.
Even back when I started off "serious model railroading" in HO, it wasn't with the latest and greatest (PFM brass locomotives. Things were much simpler back then), it was with a Marx HO set my folks bought me at an after Christmas sale at Sears. It wasn't the Mantua/Tyco set I was eyeing at my LHS but I was still happy as a clam.
Sure, I wanted empires like the John Allan's Gorre & Dapheated, Whit Towers' Alturas & Lone Pine and brass locomotives, but I did what I could on a 4 x 8 with Marx, Athearn and Mantua/Tyco. I learned a lot along the way.
A similar scenario, starting out small and relatively inexpensive, occured each time I changed scales. With each scale change I built and learned something new along the way.
I built my modest "empires" from there.
Rusty
quote:My guess is he'll walk out with an RC airplane...
I don't think so.
My sons went through an RC plane phase.
Serious RC airplanes aren't inexpensive, and you need a place to fly them.
They aren't allowed to be flown in public places around here. So unless you have a significant piece of property, you need to join a local club.
Our local club requires that you join the AMA first.
While there is no screening on the national (AMA) level, our local club has to vote on the admission of each member. Imagine the TCA going in that direction
As an aside, the RC plane folks seem to worry about a lot of the same things that "O" gauge folks worry about: new blood, rising prices, less folks interested in building their own, and so on.
Me, I don't worry about anything. If new folks get into the hobby.... great. If not, that is good too. My stuff goes up in value.... that's nice. My stuff goes down in value.... even better! In some respects, I wish the stuff was worthless!
How many kids go through their Brio wood trains or "Thomas the Tank Engine Phase" without becoming model railroaders? Quite a few I imagine.
Just because someone buys their kid a train set, it doesn't guarantee that kid will become a model railroader.
It has been that way in the past, it is that way now, and shall be that way in the future.
Rusty
Me, I don't worry about anything. If new folks get into the hobby.... great. If not, that is good too. My stuff goes up in value.... that's nice. My stuff goes down in value.... even better! In some respects, I wish the stuff was worthless!
Now this comment I like!
I know it's always been somewhat of a tradition to encourage and hope for new "members" to come into the fold, but I guess it doesn't really matter after all.
We're happy doing what we can do, and if the prices of new stuff scares off potential newcomers, then I guess that just means more future secondary market stuff for the rest of us..eBay, here we come!
Mark in Oregon
quote:I know it's always been somewhat of a tradition to encourage and hope for new "members" to come into the fold, but I guess it doesn't really matter after all.
While I have no concerns for the future of the hobby, I certainly do encourage and help anybody who expresses an interest because I do think its a good one.
At the York show my wife picked up a fun slightly used Lionel basic set. $70.00. Included track, engine, tender, 3 cars, lockon, wire and transformer. It was a gift to 2 nephews. They had it running in no time and have played with it every day. They are excited to put around tree. Hopefully a seed is planted for a Christmas train memory. That's a pretty cheap entry price. There is tons of very reasonable used entry items out there. I'll give them a few cars for Christmas morning.
Is the issue the cost of model railroading or model accumulating?
The economies of scale aren't there for model railroad electronics like it is with consumer electronics.
Rusty
quote:Is the issue the cost of model railroading or model accumulating?
Clearly the discussion is focused on getting started with Model Railroading with newly made trains.
quote:Is the issue the cost of model railroading or model accumulating?
Clearly the discussion is focused on getting started with Model Railroading with newly made trains.
Thank you, that was indeed the intention when I started this topic.
I know that used stuff is readily available, and often affordable. My concern is that, with prices on new stuff becoming so high,will the market be able to support enough new products, so that that new stuff will eventually filter down into the secondary market, which seems to be where most of us rely on our purchases?
I was just throwing that out there; no value judgements one way or another intended...
Mark in Oregon
quote:Is the issue the cost of model railroading or model accumulating?
Clearly the discussion is focused on getting started with Model Railroading with newly made trains.
Clearly.. 
: what's going to happen to this hobby when the average Joe walks into his LHS and realizes that that new Lionel-made loco and a handful of cars is going to run close to a grand. Just the train. He still has to purchase a power supply, and track, and even after all that, he will then have to consider future $ spent for scenery, etc.
My guess is he'll walk out with an RC airplane...
I think I am the average Joe and while I admire the latest and greatest my first choice is Post War trains which is still very affordable with train shows, Ebay and the like. Most people don't just fall out of bed one day and decide to make trains their hobby. I think they always had the interest just never got around to pursuing it and when they do they have some idea how they can go about it and afford it to satisfy their interest. No matter how high prices go on the new stuff there will be people to buy it, probably not me, but someone. That's not to say I don't have some of the modern trains, I just buy the broken ones and spend my time fixing them, whick I enjoy more than running them. Its a challenge but also rewarding. My point is simply, this hobby will be around as long as the interest remains, regardless of price.
Regards,
Joe Geiser
MTH may solve the start-up cost problem with a basic starter set, we'll see next month. Their sets in other scales are pretty good values.
Well. I hate to say. I remember when Ahearn blue box freight car kits were $2-3 dollars for many years. I never knew how they made any money on them. During the late 1970's- 80's maybe early 90's all be it they were in kit form. I agree with CW if your informed and not a complete newbie you can buy good used equipment for 1/2 or less than original discounted cost right here on the OGR forum in some cases. As for the Newbie good starter sets with track and tmcc and or dcs would be a tremendous plus for the hobby and new people entering the hobby. It is also true that S scale is a niche scale and not mass marketed like HO or N. O; 3 rail has a bigger following considering there are two fairly large magazines that cater "mostly to 3 rail with some S scale. Add to high prices in a poor economy and aging demographics; the high cost of new trains always mystfied me however a profit has to be made.
Regarding prices then and now: this still applies:
Rusty
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