PS3 Upgrade into K Line Scale Hudson

What is the part number on that engine? The last release of those came with K-Line Cruise. If so a ERR Cruise M might fix that problem.

A PS3 kit should work. You don’t have get a PS2 smoke unit. Any fan driven unit will work but the resistor needs to be changed to 8 ohms.

Pete

Thanks for the info!

I don't *think* it's one that had cruise, at least not from the factory. When it was working, I wondered if it had some form of cruise, though. It was unusually "steady" in its speed and acted like my Odyssey engines in that regard.

Part number on the box is K3270-5343S

In regard to the smoke unit, a Lionel 14566-200 8 ohm fan driven smoke unit should wire up directly, correct?

OK thats the one with non cruise TMCC. Not sure why its acting up though. You could try and reseat the boards and connectors but PS3 is still an option. Not a drop in though as you may have make a bit more room for the tether connection in the engine  plus make a mount for the smoke unit.

With MTH two wires go to the resistor and two wires go to fan motor. Just make sure none of the traces on the smoke unit are connected to chassis ground. Wiring will be shown in the PS3 installation manual.

Pete

I would diagnose your issue and make sure it doesn’t follow you with a new electronics set. The Kline Hudson has a notoriously small motor. Make sure it isn’t the route of all evil. I have one stock Kline with TMCC & Kline cruise. After about 20-30 minutes of running, it gets good & hot, …..I’ve condemned that engine to commuter service, pulling 3 coaches. It’s happy in that role, but still, anything more than 45 minutes, and it goes to Flakeville, and does stupid stuff,…..leave it cool off, and it’s good to go again….

Pat

I have upgraded the K line Hudson and tank to PS-2 3V.  That board a little smaller and I did put it in the engine.  Lots of chassis grinding to make it work.  You can modify the smoke to work with PS-2 or 3.  If this is your first I wouldn't do it.  Do something more straight forward like an MTH PS-1 engine.  Or get a tech to do it.

Converting lionel / k line also means light and marker changes too.  So far more advance upgrade.  G

@harmonyards posted:

I would diagnose your issue and make sure it doesn’t follow you with a new electronics set. The Kline Hudson has a notoriously small motor. Make sure it isn’t the route of all evil. I have one stock Kline with TMCC & Kline cruise. After about 20-30 minutes of running, it gets good & hot, …..I’ve condemned that engine to commuter service, pulling 3 coaches. It’s happy in that role, but still, anything more than 45 minutes, and it goes to Flakeville, and does stupid stuff,…..leave it cool off, and it’s good to go again….

Pat

Yeah, I've read that about those motors before. I see that you can't exactly just throw a Pittman in it, either, and I read one post where someone was modifying the K line body to fit on an MTH chassis. Starting to sound like an uphill battle and I would be better off just getting another Hudson with a more robust drivetrain.

I think the TMCC board is done, though... Last night I decided to try and give programming it into my base3 another go, and the locomotive doesn't even recognize a TMCC signal in program mode.

I'll give it some thought. Looks good sitting on a shelf, at least.

@GGG posted:

I have upgraded the K line Hudson and tank to PS-2 3V.  That board a little smaller and I did put it in the engine.  Lots of chassis grinding to make it work.  You can modify the smoke to work with PS-2 or 3.  If this is your first I wouldn't do it.  Do something more straight forward like an MTH PS-1 engine.  Or get a tech to do it.

Converting lionel / k line also means light and marker changes too.  So far more advance upgrade.  G

I appreciate the info. I'm mechanically inclined and don't mind a project, but electronics and the tediousness of these sorts of jobs are certainly daunting. I might follow your advice and send it off.

Wonder if there's anyone on the East Coast who would be interested in a task like this? Again, though, it's a case where I know it requires a lot of work, and I'm thinking that by the time I paid someone else for parts and labor, I could just buy another Hudson. Maybe I could try to find a decent deal on a PS1 Hudson, do the upgrade, and add some fine details to that model to help bring it up to par.

EDIT: Heck, I was just checking around, and it would be cheaper to buy a used PS2 Hudson off the bat, I think. If I undertake this project, it will be just to for the sake of learning.

I would be trying to find out what the existing problem is. The Lionel electronics don’t usually fail. DCDR motor drivers are cheap, everyone who does upgrades likely has a box full. Pull the motor and change out the grease. See if there is any improvement.

Pete

I have to go with Pete here, most of the stuff that goes bad in a TMCC installation is pretty simple and not expensive to fix.  You're lining up a considerably more difficult job trying to go PS/3.

Thanks again for the input, and I'll admit I mentally moved on to the "rip it all out" mindset so quickly that I guess I foolishly forgot that I can actually try to fix what I have before throwing hundreds of bucks at it.

Tomorrow I'm going to test continuity between the handrail antennas and boiler shell just to make sure they are properly isolated and aren't shorting out somewhere. I'll also throw a pic of the internals up just so y'all can see what I'm working with and ensure that something "custom" wasn't done by the previous owner, as when it was working properly it sure did act like it had cruise control of some sort, even if the model number says it doesn't. It would hold rock solid low speeds in areas where other non cruise engines would vary speed quite a bit. Odd. Just for the record, it exhibits the following symptoms:

1. It will move, but behave erratically when in traditional mode... Go slowly (but with a lot of throttle applied), or rocket ahead. Not much in between. It doesn't act as if there is a lubrication or binding issue.

2. I does not chuff as it is supposed to anymore. That used to happen erratically after running for a bit, but now when it moves it doesn't chuff at all.

3. When I put it in program mode and power it up, it acts like a traditional engine. It does not silently "wait" for input or respond when I go through the TMCC programming sequence.

If it's acting like a conventional locomotive with a TMCC signal on the tracks, that's probably the antenna connection or the R2LC.  Either should be repairable way cheaper than plunking down hundreds of dollars and lots of time for an upgrade.

Notwithstanding the great advice above, if you do decide to rip it all out and convert it to PS-3 you will likely be pretty happy with the results. Converted mine several years ago to PS2-3V and it still runs great. I used an MTH smoke unit but an 8057-200 Lionel would probably fit just fine, and they can be found. You definitely want to get rid of the OEM plunger puffer unit. You will also need a custom tach tape to get the mph speed correct. No big deal.

Mine has the OEM motor and pulls up to 10 cars or so just fine, but you should heed the advice above about long trains.

Rod

@Mallet1218 posted:

Thanks again for the input, and I'll admit I mentally moved on to the "rip it all out" mindset so quickly that I guess I foolishly forgot that I can actually try to fix what I have before throwing hundreds of bucks at it.

Tomorrow I'm going to test continuity between the handrail antennas and boiler shell just to make sure they are properly isolated and aren't shorting out somewhere. I'll also throw a pic of the internals up just so y'all can see what I'm working with and ensure that something "custom" wasn't done by the previous owner, as when it was working properly it sure did act like it had cruise control of some sort, even if the model number says it doesn't. It would hold rock solid low speeds in areas where other non cruise engines would vary speed quite a bit. Odd. Just for the record, it exhibits the following symptoms:

1. It will move, but behave erratically when in traditional mode... Go slowly (but with a lot of throttle applied), or rocket ahead. Not much in between. It doesn't act as if there is a lubrication or binding issue.

2. I does not chuff as it is supposed to anymore. That used to happen erratically after running for a bit, but now when it moves it doesn't chuff at all.

3. When I put it in program mode and power it up, it acts like a traditional engine. It does not silently "wait" for input or respond when I go through the TMCC programming sequence.

From experience, the hand rails have an oxide coating. Just simply touching the outside of the handrail could yield false results. At the very end of the handrail, down on the pilot frame, the factory clipped the handrails exposing the raw metal. This is where I get my readings from.

Pat

Regarding a possible short in the handrails, check where the handrails enter the pilot. If anyone has taken the shell off before there is a chance a insulating grommet is missing. You can get them from Lionel but small shrink wrap works in the meantime.

Pete

@Norton posted:

Regarding a possible short in the handrails, check where the handrails enter the pilot. If anyone has taken the shell off before there is a chance a insulating grommet is missing. You can get them from Lionel but small shrink wrap works in the meantime.

Pete

I have a couple of handrails with heatshrink on them to replace the missing grommet.  I saw no reason to worry about them after that, worked fine and is probably more secure than the original solution.

When I build these, I stick a small piece of heat shrink around it at the pilot frame anyways,……that coupler cut bar gets mighty close ….call it cheap insurance…

Pat

Work and kids had me tied up yesterday, so I just now got a chance to remove the engine and tender bodies. Anything jump out at y’all? Pulled the R2LC08 board off to get a better look under it. No sign of cruise, correct? I’m not even sure what that board looks like.

Tested for a short in the handrails and could find no sign of continuity between the rails and body.

@Mallet1218 posted:

Work and kids had me tied up yesterday, so I just now got a chance to remove the engine and tender bodies. Anything jump out at y’all? Pulled the R2LC08 board off to get a better look under it. No sign of cruise, correct? I’m not even sure what that board looks like.

Tested for a short in the handrails and could find no sign of continuity between the rails and body.

Yes, that locomotive is equipped with Kline Cruise. I’ve circled the Kline Cruise sensor board on the motor.

Pat

Well, alrighty then! Despite the model number, I KNEW that thing was acting like it had cruise of some sort on it!

So... It's my understanding that system was very trouble prone. What should I do next? Remove the cruise and replace it with... Something?  Edit: This what will probably fix what ails it?

https://royztrains.com/product/err-cruise-commander/

@Mallet1218 posted:

Well, alrighty then! Despite the model number, I KNEW that thing was acting like it had cruise of some sort on it!

So... It's my understanding that system was very trouble prone. What should I do next? Remove the cruise and replace it with... Something?  Edit: This what will probably fix what ails it?

https://royztrains.com/product/err-cruise-commander/

Kline Cruise was also available as a separate sale add on kit. It included the parts necessary for a DIY conversion.

Pat

Here’s a better pic of that board. At a glance I don’t see how to remove that without pulling the flywheel. :/

@Mallet1218 posted:

Here’s a better pic of that board. At a glance I don’t see how to remove that without pulling the flywheel. :/

As Pete mentioned earlier in the thread, an ERR Cruise M would be an easier fix. You can just simply leave the Kline Cruise board alone, and just disconnect the sensor portion where it plugs into the Kline motor driver board. The ERR Cruise M driver board will bolt in place of the Kline driver board. As long as your radio board hasn’t bitten the dust, it can be reused with the Cruise M…….Cost wise, it’s almost darn the difference as to adding a Cruise M, or swapping over to MTH PS3. It all depends on the level of work you want to accomplish. Be advised, the MTH PS3 swap is a complete wiring gut out and start from scratch. You will also need a MTH type PS2/PS3 type smoke unit, and fabricate some type of bracket mounting system for it.

Pat

One thing you can try before removing anything is to reprogram the K-Line Cruise board. You may get lucky.

https://ogrforum.com/fileSendA...ogramming%20Tips.pdf

Pete

Again, I really appreciate the advice from all of y'all!

I am a little put off by the fact that a cruise commander is $150+ bucks, and if I wanted 4 chuffs per revolution I'd have to buy another board, and I still need to buy a smoke unit if I want something better than what's in it. The cost difference doesn't really seem huge compared to going PS3, but I understand the labor difference is substantial.

I will absolutely try the reset procedure posted above. That being said, does it make any sense that a bad K line cruise board would make the engine seem to not recognize a TMCC signal at all? As mentioned, when I put it in program mode, the engine fires up as if it is in neutral in conventional mode.

I'd hate to buy a ERR Commander M only to find out that R2 board is bad, and a cursory search indicated those boards are hard to find and another 100+ bucks IF I can find one at all. Ugh.

Obviously I can't expect y'all to make a decision and spend my money for me, lol. Just kind of thinking as I type.

Let me suggest a test for the radio board and TMCC signal. If you have already ready, put the engine in program mode, hit ENG, ID##, SET the hit AUX1, 4. You should hear the whistle blow after SET and 4.

If not there is a problem with the TMCC signal. If you do hear the whistle then put it back in run mode and address the engine with your ID number. You should be able to trigger the whistle, bell, and open the rear coupler. Again shows TMCC signal is OK.

Then try and run it. If jerky or no motion then its the Cruise board.

Before you order a PS3 kit you can download the installation manual to see what involved. Not being an MTH engine to begin with make the process a bit more difficult but you may or may not want to try and DIY.

Pete

@Norton posted:

Let me suggest a test for the radio board and TMCC signal. If you have already ready, put the engine in program mode, hit ENG, ID##, SET the hit AUX1, 4. You should hear the whistle blow after SET and 4.

If not there is a problem with the TMCC signal. If you do hear the whistle then put it back in run mode and address the engine with your ID number. You should be able to trigger the whistle, bell, and open the rear coupler. Again shows TMCC signal is OK.

Then try and run it. If jerky or no motion then its the Cruise board.

Before you order a PS3 kit you can download the installation manual to see what involved. Not being an MTH engine to begin with make the process a bit more difficult but you may or may not want to try and DIY.

Pete

Not always true Pete.  Have seen R2LC that won't run motion.  So just because certain R2LC functions work, doesn't mean it is 100%.

I recommend you send it to a tech who can test feature because they have good boards to swap in and out for test.  Then go from there.

When the engine was running and cruise board goes, it usually is with smoke and obviously damaged. G

A lot of K-Line cruise board failures look just like this, complete with the matching smoke cloud!   I used to keep these in my bad board box, but I tossed them recently as I figured I'd never be able to properly repair them.

The odd thing is obviously something is overloaded right in that cluster of transistors because that's by far the most common failure I've ween with the K-Line cruise boards.

I hope you get your issues sorted out so you can enjoy this handsome locomotive. I purchased this one with PS2 installed many moons ago from someone in MD and it has been a good one. Recently, the smoke unit went out and I haven't had the opportunity to work on it.  She's a real beauty however..

Be sure to add a set of scale pilot wheels that make a big difference in appearance. Mine is in the foreground and the other is a recent Legacy Hudson with the stock Lionel 'miniature' pilot truck as delivered!

So.... Just wanted to provide and update and not leave this as a "dead" thread that never had results. Didn't have any luck with reset procedures, and since it costs a small fortune to send an engine off and back for testing, I just decided to go ahead and order a PS3 upgrade kit. I really enjoy running the couple of PS2/PS3 engines I have (a Dreyfuss Hudson and an N&W A Class), so I thought it would be great to add that to this engine, and it will be a learning experience. I can only hope I don't screw it up, but I've seen people lose way more gambling on dumber things.

I ordered the kit and requested the sound file that would be used with a NYC Hudson they made with a matching road number (20-3872-1).

Actually... I see that MTH does have some smoke unit in stock. Y'all reckon I could make part. no. AA0000037 fit? It's the shortest one I see in stock with the brass cup included. Found it on this webpage:

https://www.mthpartsandsales.c...lists/183?type=lists

@Mallet1218 posted:

Actually... I see that MTH does have some smoke unit in stock. Y'all reckon I could make part. no. AA0000037 fit? It's the shortest one I see in stock with the brass cup included. Found it on this webpage:

https://www.mthpartsandsales.c...lists/183?type=lists

There’s more than one way to skin this cat. The “regular sized” (if you want to call it that) PS2/PS3 smoke unit fits just fine either way in a Kline Hudson. You can boiler mount it, or frame mount it. Obviously frame mounting takes a lot more figuring to line everything up just right. Boiler mounting takes a lot of fitment worries out of the equation. I just so happen to be outfitting a Kline Hudson for a client right now, and after work, I’ll be happy to share my method,…….My method requires some precise drilling and fabrication skills, but nothing rocket science. If you can bend & shape small brackets, you can do what I do…..below I’ve screenshot the smoke units I use, available at mthpartsandsales.com ……..

Pat

Thank you! Parts are ordered, MTH affirmed my sound file choice would be a good one, and I already received a shipment notification.

If y'all have any pointers to guide me through a custom install like this, by all means, feel free to share! I'm ready to listen.

I'll update my work on it, although I can already predict it will probably be pretty slow going. Most time I get to do these things nowadays is on Friday/Saturday night while I'm sipping on an ah-dult beverage and the kids have gone to bed, lol. I've wanted to try and do one of these upgrades for a while, so I'm anxious to try it out.

Here’s how I mount the MTH smoke unit in a Kline Hudson boiler. Just behind the forward standoff, there’s a pronounced drop off flat area just wide enough to accept a 2mm screw. With a small drill, you can get down in there. There’s just enough material for 2mm, maybe 2-56 but I’ve never tried. 2mm is a plenty …….you can also purchase 2mm screws from mthpartsandsales.com ……whatever material they make those 2mm screws out of, they are as hard as L9 locomotive grade,…..they are seriously a hard screw,….it’ll hold the smoke unit forever. I first fashion a short stack extension from brass tubing to make the smoke unit’s exhaust just a bit taller, so the solder pads aren’t resting against the boiler top. Then I fashion a bracket to mount the smoke unit to the boiler. This one belongs to our good friend Mark Boyce ……

Pat

I chassis mount the short post MTH smoke unit in the K-Line scale locomotives with a small plate I make of aluminum or fiberglass.  I then solder a stack extension on the short funnel of the MTH smoke unit to extend into the stack.

So, I got my parts, and I finally got to spend some time working on it today. My goal was to finish the tender portion of the installation, and I've more or less completed that. I do have a couple of questions, though, if y'all can help me out.

1. The K line engine has a volume pot, but it significantly different from the standard MTH pot. I have currently eliminated it since the goal is to run it in DCS, so I followed the directions and soldered the gray and red wires together and made sure the blue wire was insulated and could not ground out on the chassis. I'm wondering, though... Could I use the volume pot that came on the engine? Or would I need to get an MTH one? Doesn't really matter since I don't plan to run it conventionally, but just curious. I've included a picture of the K Line pot. If I can use it, which wires correlate to what?

2. The tender marker lights on the K line engine are nearly identical to the supplied mth ones; they even have the same harness plug. Any reason I can't just reuse the K line marker lamps instead of tearing them out and replacing with the ones MTH supplied? In the pictures included below you can see that the bulbs look identical. Common sense tells me it is fine, but with electrical stuff you never know.

@Mallet1218 posted:

Could I use the volume pot that came on the engine? Or would I need to get an MTH one? Doesn't really matter since I don't plan to run it conventionally, but just curious. I've included a picture of the K Line pot. If I can use it, which wires correlate to what?

2. The tender marker lights on the K line engine are nearly identical to the supplied mth ones; they even have the same harness plug. Any reason I can't just reuse the K line marker lamps instead of tearing them out and replacing with the ones MTH supplied? In the pictures included below you can see that the bulbs look identical. Common sense tells me it is fine, but with electrical stuff you never know.

The volume pot for Railsounds and DCS is the same 10K pot, you can use the existing pot.  Turn the pot fully clockwise, then measure between the single pin one one side to the two on the other side.  The one that is zero ohms (or close) is the high side, the gray wire goes to that one, the red wire goes to the single terminal, and obviously the blue wire goes to the remaining terminal.

The K-Line markers are likely wired in parallel, the markers for the DCS are wired in series.  Also, the polarity of the connector may be reversed.  You'll need to adjust those factors, but the actual LEDs are the same as the MTH ones.  Truthfully, since you already have the K-Line ones out, why not just use the MTH ones?

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The volume pot for Railsounds and DCS is the same 10K pot, you can use the existing pot.  Turn the pot fully clockwise, then measure between the single pin one one side to the two on the other side.  The one that is zero ohms (or close) is the high side, the gray wire goes to that one, the red wire goes to the single terminal, and obviously the blue wire goes to the remaining terminal.

The K-Line markers are likely wired in parallel, the markers for the DCS are wired in series.  Also, the polarity of the connector may be reversed.  You'll need to adjust those factors, but the actual LEDs are the same as the MTH ones.  Truthfully, since you already have the K-Line ones out, why not just use the MTH ones?

Thank you, sir! Honestly, the lights looked so similar that my initial thought was, "Why waste good lights?" I do agree with you though... Since I'm already in there, why not? No point unnecessarily introducing potential problems.

It might go up in smoke when I fire it up, but the tender part didn't seem bad at all. I spent more time fabbing up a little reducer ring to hold the MTH speaker in the K line mounting box than anything.

Now I'm moving on to the locomotive portion, and I'm seeing why this job is "Kustom" with a "K," lol. I already see that I'll need to Dremel the plug hole on the rear of the engine to be wide enough for the MTH tether. If I may, can I ask for advice on a couple of other aspects of the job?

- So, the funky little Mabuchi motor with its K line cruise control unit presents some fitment issues in regard to the MTH style tach reader. Any recommendations on how to work around that? Figured it wouldn't hurt to ask before I start hacking up the tach reader mount. To do anything close to how it was meant to be attached, I'm going to have to tear out the K line tach wheel and cut up the MTH tach mount to fit around the K line circuit board. Heck, I guess I could just fashion something to hold the tach reader next to the flywheel that is as simple as a "stick" that attaches to the side of the motor. I imagine I need to tear out the K line tach wheel, regardless. I see the motor itself is DC, and I've identified the lead power wires as being the brown and gray ones in the pic. I guess I just attach to those wires from the MTH harness and snip the third black one, correct?

- And then there's the issue with the constant voltage board. I now see that the K line/Lionel setup doesn't have a standalone lighting board like an MTH does, correct? Any recs or part numbers for a board that would work well with this setup? I guess I would ideally like something that could run the front markers, cab light, and firebox light. If someone has an appropriate board and wants to sell it, please let me know!

Thanks again for all of the help. Y'all are awesome, and I appreciate not being raked over the coals for all of my novice questions.

As for the tach reader, I just mount it using a curved shim and then stack some thin Styrene on it to space the sensor properly.  This is the same way I mount my Chuff-Generator for TMCC installations.

Here's my Chuff-Generator mounted, I do the PS/2 style tach sensor the same way for places where the factory holder won't work.  This is an old picture where I was using fiberglass, now I use Styrene and I print the curved shim on the bottom on the 3D printer.  I can send you a couple shims if that works for you.

Here's the shims before I slice them up to the proper length.

As for the aux power supply, I have several of these little modules from MTH stuff, they produce 6V at around 50-60 milliamps.

I also make these adjustable switching modules that run from track power and will crank out 250-300 milliamps.