You won't get better signal.

However, you won't need external fuses, you'll have meters for voltage and amp draw, and you'll have the ability to manage power via the DCS Remote using a Z4000 Remote Commander receiver.

OG3RAIL,

Barry is right on point. These past three months I had to sell both of my prewar layouts. Both were set up to run DCS. One was powered with a Lionel Z (prewar), the other used a MTH Z4K. The Z4K made running trains pleasurable.

God's Blessings,

"Pappy"

On my layout, because I use DCS, I hid my ZW under the layout with fuses and electronic circuit breakers.  Set the levers and forget it.  So always powers up with same voltages. 

The Z4000 I believe reverts to zero output during powerup to prevent train runaway on conventional non DCS setups.  That said, I would have to mount the Z4000 conspicuously and manipulate handles each session.

But this is just my 2 cents.

Sam,

That said, I would have to mount the Z4000 conspicuously and manipulate handles each session.

Not necessarily. That's why I have Z4000 Remote Commander receivers on each of my 3 Z4000s, all of which are underneath the layout.

My theory is modern electronics in the trains and their controls = modern transformers to power them. Old ZW's might be great, but I am not comfortable using them to power my electronic controls and engines for some of the reasons already mentioned.  

Barry, does MTH still market the Z4K remote?

rtr12, in the leads between my Z4000 and the TIU, I have a 5-amp breaker on one and a 7.5 on the other.  These will often open before the Z4000 breakers.  I also have 4 channels powered by ZWs, feeding through 5-amp breakers.  I don't use smoke, so these ampacities are adequate.  But I feel no less secure with the ZWs.  I don;t believe a short anywhere on the layout will affect onboard electronics, but a spark generated by a short will.  Neither the Z4000 nor any overcurrent device will protect against such a spark.  An onboard device would be needed.

Robert,

does MTH still market the Z4K remote?

They're available now, however, when they're gone. That's all there'll best since some parts are no longer available.

Regardless, there's a possibility that MTH could make another product that does what this product does, just using different parts.

An onboard device would be needed.

Not necessarily. Each TIU channel has, built-in, a TVS just for that purpose.

That product has performed flawlessly, and it certainly fills a need, by permitting remote control of a Z4000 even without DCS.

Will the TVS upstream of the spark also protect a component which is downstream of the spark, or must it be between the spark and the component?  I don't know and will defer to the electronics engineers, but my rough guess is the latter

Actually, the TVS simply clamps the spike at the TVS device.  The farther away it is from the device to be protected, the more inductance there is between the TVS and the protected device.  This allows more of the spike to reach whatever you're protecting.

It's impossible to quantify how effective the TVS will be in this situation, every situation would be unique.  I can say that the TVS anywhere in the circuit should offer some protection, even if it's not between the source and the protected device.

I am sure many folks swear by the old ZW's and that's fine. I re-entered the hobby a few years ago and researched about everything I bought. Just couldn't see an old technology power supply for my new electronic command control engines when I could get the latest technology in PH-180's and more power per channel (I don't have a Z4000). At the time I got back in the hobby, my LHS was selling re-furbished old ZW's for nearly as much as I could get almost three PH-180's brand new. I think the ZW's were around $225 and the PH-180's were about $80 each at the time.

I know a lot of folks have been around the hobby a long time and had their ZW's long before command control was invented. Had I stayed in the hobby since I was a kid, I could very well have had a ZW or two and still be using them (with modern breakers of course). While I am not interested in an old one, a nice new ZW would really be nice to have someday.   (Still considerably more than the PH-180's, but quite possibly better?)

I can't argue with your logic, but it is correct.  I would not recommend buying a PW ZW, but if a person already had one or could get one for close to zero, it is certainly usable, and has one benefit:  a pure sine wave over all output voltages.

Gentlemen,

    I used both kinds of ZW's, a couple KW's and a Z4K some hidden below deck, some on my power tables, set up correctly everything runs great, Barry is correct about the side receiver on the Z4K, for me a definite must for the layout, the KW's & ZW's work great, each having its own use.  Now that I have gone to FT Command control Switches I have even more power available for running trains.  I highly recommend the Z4K, mixed with the older Lionel ZW's & KW's to help keep the cost of powering your layout

some where near a sanity cost point, just remember to use the Scott type resettable 10 Amp breakers between the old transformers and the TIU to safe guard your DCS equipment.

PCRR/Dave

Some of the power Station above deck

Well, the Z4000 has virtually a pure sine wave as well, it's really the only electronically controlled transformer that does that I've used.  Here's a thread with pictures of the waveform at various loads.

MTH Z4000 Waveform Pic

If you just need a transformer with no controls because you run command only, than the ZW is fine as long as you add circuit protection.  The ZW falls short on meters and bell/whistle buttons to use controlling features of modern trains when in conventional mode.   The pure sine wave is great for PW, MTH and QSI trains. Interesting enough, Lionel has stated chopped wave is better for their trains.  G

rtr12,

   IMO I have trouble justifying the cost for a new ZW when my old ZW's run everything

just as well.  I do like the idea of more power, I always over power my layouts, if the new ZW comes down in price I might consider adding one, until then the Z4K and the old ZW's & KW's run everything just fine.  I want another masonic train and a new Legacy engine before even considering the new ZW.

PCRR/Dave

The PW ZW has one definite advantage over the Z4000:  it has the ability to power accessories in addition to having handles for track control.  The 14-volt outlet on the Z4000 is slightly less voltage than most older accessories need, and its ampacity is miniscule.  The 10-volt outlet is not much use, other than supplying power to a AC>DC converter and voltage regulator if one wants to have a feed going around the layout for LED lighting.  Of course, with the PW ZW, one should be careful not to pull more than 10 amps from the entire transformer, over all circuits in the aggregate.

The Z4000 has one definite advantage over the PW-ZW, twice the actual output power.   Oh, it has some other advantages as well...

The PW-ZW is actually very good for powering accessories as you say, you get four independently adjustable outputs.

Guns,

   These are some of the exact reasons I think its nice to own both Z4k's and ZW's along with a couple KW's, you open your engineering options greatly.

PCRR/Dave

It works for me. I think the PH-180 is pure sine wave also? Will have to check to be certain, but I think I've seen somewhere that is was. Maybe gunrunnerjohn will be back by here, I'm sure he knows which type they are.

This thread does have me starting to think about an old ZW for accessories though. That is if the price around here ever comes down by quite a bit. As for the new ZW, they are still quite a bit above my pay grade, but they are nice. I could get about eight (maybe more) PH-180's for the price of a new ZW. That is if the PH-180 prices have not gone up like everything else has.

Pine Creek RR,

I don't have any ZW's and they are quite expensive around here and not readily available. My LHS has one I think, but it's quite expensive as I posted above. We have maybe 3-4 train shows a year around here and they are all most all HO & N gauge. We are just lucky to have a LHS in town that has a good selection of O gauge.

The PH135 and the PH180 are pure sine wave transformers.  All they are is a fixed voltage transformer with a circuit breaker, in the case of the PH180, it's an electronic breaker, so it's much faster acting.

Thanks, GRJ, I knew you would know for sure.