Rather have gone 3 rail??

Aside from the product availability thing, which does evoke envy from some 2-railers, I suppose, I don't think I've ever met a 2-rail hobbyist who wishes he had gone with 3-rail.

Most of those I've met or visited are interested in the most prototypical appearance and operation they can achieve, and that comes with 2-rail.

I went from 2-rail HO to O scale 3-rail for those reasons, and some of those reasons (plus the $$$ I have in 3-rail now) are holding me back from going 2-rail.

If I could get a layout design in the space I have that would allow me to reverse engine direction (and keep the cost under control doing so) I would convert from 3-rail to 2-rail and build a P-T-P layout and ditch the loop.

To me, a 2-rail P-T-P layout using smallish motive power (nothing articulated or bigger than a USRA 2-8-2) would be ideal.  On the other hand, I enjoy watching a long passenger train go around the room at speed.  Maybe a 2-rail switching layout with a 3-rail passenger layout at another height would be the thing to have (or the other way around, a 2-rail passenger train and 3-rail switching).

But I'm with Allan, I've never known any O-scale 2-railer that would admit to wanting to go to 3-rail.

I think what needs to remembered here is that 3 railers have their share of problems as well, DCS issues,Legacy issues,engines with problems right out of the box and so on....the grass is definetly not always greener.  The challenges we face in 2 rail are no worse, just different in some cases and actually make this side of the hobby more rewarding for me. 

     I think the hobby becomes work when you stop having fun, then it is a job and as such not very enjoyable....it needs to be fun and rewarding.  Just my 2 cents...

Chris

All of the above is why I have not gone O scale at all. I tried 2 rail and was frustrated with having to convert all the widely available 3 rail cars. The engines ran poorly. I could not do switching with them. I then gave 3 rail a try and could not stand all the issues I had with DCS. Currently I'm planning an HO layout. I am using NCE DCC which works well. Engines run great out of the box and I can find pretty much anything I would want in RTR as far as cars. I hope O scale gets there one day, as I would really like to get back into it but for now the ease with which I can purchase, run and enjoy model trains keeps me in HO. I hope you people don't mind if I continue to stalk here though.

For my interests 3 rail doesn't exist at all. If I cannot achieve the ultimate realism in whatever scale I might chose to work in I would rather not be in the hobby at all frankly. I had 3 rail as a child with a Lionel set at age 10...and it was fun as a child, but as I became more aware of the prototype it was apparent a 2 rail was the only model railroading future for me. The issues with 2 rail are part of your entry fee so to speak, if you rather be a ready to run hobbiest, 2 rail will never suit your purpose. I know Tom was not asking for this sort of reply, but a reverse migration 2R to 3R is so alien to me I had to type a little...

Bob

I worked at Lionel for 7 years and never once wanted to model in 3-Rail. I tried with some success to get scale items into the product line because the 3-railers wants more scale items and the scael guys would purchase it. Atlas does a great job at this. At Lionel, it was Accessories that I designed as scale. But as Allan stated, I have never met a 2 rail guy stating he wished he had three rail. It's always been a three rail person stating they want to go to 2-rail because that is what is out there in the real world! And thanks, I don't need some one telling me there is a three rail real RR some where in the world and if there is is, there are NO SD70aces, GEVO's, SD45's, SW1's, SD90's and the like with 89's auto racks! 

Funny this would come up at this time. Last Saturday I began the demolition of my O scale 2R 12 x 20 layout. So far I have removed 3 turnouts w/o damage. I am removing the rail and of course will lose all the ties and roadbed. I am preparing a list of all my O scale items, locos, rolling  stock , building kits and detail parts to eventually sell or trade. I am returning to HO because of several things,the being standardized electronics. I possess no knowledge of all these different systems but with HO all I  have to do is buy all DC or all DCC and it works, sometimes both.

Another factor is decals, there is not much available for me factory painted since I model shortlines, at least with HO I can get the decals w/o custom printing which gets expensive fast.

Lastly, in the space I have I can  model every aspect of my chosen shortline with a little room to spare. This has not been an easy decision for I do love O scale but after several months of mulling it over I have decided to scale down. But, I will continue to "lurk" here.

Malcolm

Well....I usually am not over on this side but just happened to see the title and decided to check it out. 

If I could do it all over again...and I might just take a try at it over the next few years, I would go to 2-rail.  I am in 3-rail now ONLY because I was a collector of Lionel and over time decided to build a layout.  Price of equipment and lack of it being "ready to run, painted, etc." kept me from going 2-rail all those years ago.  The funny thing is I could have afforded a very nice 2-rail layout when I add up all of the money I had invested in the "collection". 

So....I am one of those that would go to 2-rail because no matter what you do, that middle rail is so obviously there!!

Alan

Personally, I find that hard to believe. When I changed from HO modeling to O Scale, in the early 1990s, I didn't have the space, nor the budget to model in 2-Rail. All the large brass steam locomotive models that I desired, were pretty much over $3000 to $5000 EACH, and none had sound, and some weren't even painted! 

Going with 3-Rail Scale, I still have the advantages of Kadee couplers, many 2-Rail scaled wheel pieces of freight rolling stock, and my most expensive steam locomotive models are the Sunset/3rd Rail brass C&O H-8, NP Z-8, and UP 4023 (neither of which was over $2000).

I would love to have gone 2-Rail, but I never won the Illinois Lottery! Thus, no HUGE house, nor dozens of large brass steam locomotive models. 

HW, it may be hard to believe but the statement is 100% accurate.  One of the parties had a feature 2 rail article of his very fine RR in OST. 

In my opinion as a prototype modeler, there is no choice but 2-rail.  It has the heft and proportionality with detail that HO does not offer.  Likewise, most 3-rail does not have the detail or prototypical accuracy.

I understand that space is a constraint, but I am building my layout accordingly... a 17' X17' PTP switch layout loosely based on a Camden, NJ industrial branch circa 1957.

As for motive power, for slow speed switching the early Atlas SW-9's with the horizontal drive are superb.  My other motive power is an RY S-12 and an original Sunset H9... I like the belt drive which allows you to see nothing but space between the running gear and the bottom of the boiler, like the real thing.

Just my opinion though.  It makes me happy.

Michael Rahilly

Eastampton, NJ

Malcolm,

We will miss you in the 2 Rails O scale community.

I hope you will still produce in O scale your wonderful cabooses. I always enjoy watching your projects come to life. You are "the" Artist of Styrene, for me.

I have to agree with you: O scale 2 rails is going through another crisis and the lack of decals, trucks and rails is not helping.

Yves

my most expensive steam locomotive models are the Sunset/3rd Rail brass C&O H-8, NP Z-8, and UP 4023 (neither of which was over $2000).

Those engines could have been purchased in 2 rail for the same price.

IMHO - The only advantage 3RS has over 2 rail is the radius needed for curves and the greater availability and variety of 3 rail trains.  Personally, I also feel the wiring is easier for my 2 rail track than Atlas 3 rail track.

However, if you take out Lionel Standard O, you are left with manufacturers that all produce 2 rail equipment.

I believe Tom's remark, but I have talked to others that have gone 2 rail rather than dealing with 3RS conversions which require fixing pilots, etc.

I do both but am very temped to pull up the 3 rail. 

The thing I find severely lacking in 2-rail is a decently priced DC power supply.  Are there any under $100-150?.

If 3-rail was running from a DC PS, I wonder what "system" would be in use now?  It's odd they still run off AC and have to convert it to DC, seems like more expense.

With my 12x12 room I can barely fit an around the wall layout in it, practically no room for any type of winding thru the countryside track work and keep the benchwork 24" wide.  If I go wider then the aisle width suffers and it's harder to reach across.

Bob, I have been working on a couple of DCS PS 2rail RRs recently and some use the inexpensive Z-1000 for conventional use and get basic horn-bell-whistle.  Last Z-1000 I purchased was around $75.

You can frequently find the MRC 6200, 9200 or 9500 in the used market place for $100 and under.

My situation is an odd one. If I were starting over, say five years ago, I would probably have gone 2-rail. Some of my 2-rail colleagues have literally said I'm a 2-railer but just don't know it yet. What is attractive about 3-rail is the big power/sharp curve capability inherent in all of the equipment.

The irony is that all of my home layout designs, with a couple of exceptions are based around a minimum 48" radius, even though they're designed to be able to support "legacy (3-rail) equipment. I've figured out hybrid wiring and sensing that supports both 2-rail and 3-rail.

From my research and preliminary testing, there's really no big advantage to 3-rail over 2-rail save the absence of reverse loop/wye issues. It really comes down to whether you can life with swinging pilots, larger couplers and a third rail in the middle.

Matt...I think you are correct.  Keep on talking and I will be inviting you to come here and help me convert!!

Alan

I really like some of the 3 rail equipment with it's scale appearance; however, I cannot get past that third rail and how it looks.

"Not that there is anything wrong with that."  Jerry Seinfeld

Larry

My dealer just received my low mileage 2-rail MTH Premier 2.0 CN ES44DC and 3.0 CNW Dash 9(with only 11.9 scale miles on it), today. They were traded for a brand new Premier 3-rail 3.0 UP SD70ACe.

Rick

I quit playing with toy trains when I was a teenager.  There are many childhood things I'd like to re-live, three rail toy trains isn't one of them.

Jay

Jay, you brought a smile to my face...factions within our hobby look down on one another whereas the general public frequently views all of us having an infintile tilt.

My plastic choo choo trains are powered by what is classified as a toy train power pack around a little plastic based track making artificial sounds.   Almost sounds Disney like.

I work with all trains and see the value in each.

We are all playing with little models.  Enjoy!  No one right way IMO.

When I started putting scale wheels and Kadees on my equipment I just decided to go 2rail. I figured since I always wanted a model railroad why not go all the way. I'm a big fan of MTH and the new PS3 engines that can now run 2rail without the polarity issue of PS2. Which can also run AC in 2rail. MTH I think has made 2rail more with in reach than before. Plus their 3rail engines can run in 2rail with the flip of a switch. If you don't mind the flanges and the lack there of you could run them on on pretty much the same radius with 2rail track. Now the flanges on my premier UP 9000 are not really big at all and runs fine on code 148. They won't run with a smaller code, but if you don't mind 148 you'll be fine.

What I'm saying is if the 3rail version can run a tight radius with 3rail track why can't you run the same just with 2rail. I know fidelity plays a big role in 2rail but if you don't mind the flanges, or a blind driver and a bit of overhang then go for it.

I just like the apperance of not having the 3rd rail and having a pretty accurate model and MTH is producing some pretty nice stuff. I'm not trying to sound like a salesman just because I repair them.

Ralph

IMO, 3-Rail scale is the best of both worlds.  Endless selection of engines and rolling stock, easier to build and better layouts in the same size space. 

I have a friend that considered going into 2-rail O scale from HO, but couldn't get past the 5' gauge track.

Moral: Compromises abound in model railroading.

But, what do I know, I'm in S scale and don't have to worry about the number of rails or the gauge.

Rusty

Not a chance. I came from 3 rail and do not miss that 3rd rail staring me in the face.

Is it more challenging than 3 rail? Yes. Is it harder to find equipment, track, etc.? Yes. Can you squeeze it into a tight space like 3 rail? No. But to me that

s the fun of it. I mean anyone can open a box with a ready to run engine and away ya go. But no dispect to 3 railers but that 3rd rail is still there and for me really distracts the realism. I would rather have a small 2 rail switching layout in a tight space than to try and cram a bigboy on a 072 3rail. And yes to me a 3rail bigboy looks cramped on even a 072 curve. I mean the real railroads had the same tasks to make it work so us 2 railers have to do some real figuring to make it work. Plus because of the lack of availibility of equipment, I'm not frantically trying to save money to buy everything in my favorite roadnames which helps me stock pile more cash so when that one piece does become available then I'll have the money to buy it. And last, I'm not a collector but an operator whose in love with the realism of the prototype. I have even thought of going all out and go P48 but haven't made that jump yet. To me it's the thrill of the hunt so to speak to have the few items you really want than to collect a whole lot of stuff for the sake of collecting.

CofG

"The Right Way"

I know I shouldn't ask, but what was the road number on that Proto-3 CNW C44-9W? If it isn't 8717 or 8727 (I have those two) was it scale-wheeled? If so, who's the dealer?

I know some won't see it this way, but that is a real advantage for many modelers in the "less popular" scales (for lack of a better term as I write this).  It helps to enforce a bit of self-discipline and also to encourage more individual creativity in the actual modeling of a slice of realistic railroading in miniature.  That's certainly not a bad thing!

Maybe if you started with Legacy you'd still be in 3 rail O 

I started out as most of us did with Lionels, and while in Scouting I went to HO for the "scale" appearance and the cachet of being a "modeler" instead of playing with toys.

I never really enjoyed it though, and I always missed the operating cars and accessories. So back to the toys when I was in my 20's.

I was tempted again when G gauge came along, and my wife and daughter have a selection of LGB. They're fun, but again: no operating cars to match Lionel.

I think it all depends on what you enjoy most. I'll stick with my toys, and occasionaly envy the scalers (especialy the traction modelers).

The other day, I offered the owner of the train store four Atlas O Master Line 3-rail locomotives -

All Canadian Pacific -

C630, MP15DC, SD40 and GP9    for only $1000.00. That's right, 4 beautiful Master Line locomotives for only $250.00 per unit. Besides, no sound in the switcher(the sound just stopped working one day and I haven't got a clue, why; everything else works great) these models are in excellent condition; and were seldom run.

Rick

Oh ya, the 3.0 UP SD70ACe, I got in the trade, is well worth it! A beautiful locomotive!

BTW, I've read some complaints re: 3.0 sounds... The horn in the CNW 9 is great! Loved it!

Rick

In a perfect world I would transform all of my HO scale and O gauge trains into S scale. One gauge and one scale with uniform scale standards and good product availability like HO now has. But that ain't gonna happen.

Yeah, I really can't fathom the secrecy but me not understanding things is nothing new.

Jay

No problem.

BTW, the CNW horns sound great. 8717 and 8727 have different horns (at least mine do) but the same prime mover sounds. I've noticed that with a couple of engines about a year ago. Looks like MTH may be mixing the sound sets within the same model.

For me..Uhm...NO....I have used Legacy but it still doesn't make that middle rail go away.  I am happy with where I am at.

That said there are some very amazing layouts out there in 3 rail such as Rich Battistas and Hotwaters, CSX Al's and so on.

Chris

Nothing weird lads... just being prudent.

One of the best things I liked about the 2-rail trains I had was their scale wheels; with all twelve making contact... Liked the uninterrupted face and rear views... with nothing missing. No gaps!

I've got the new Union Pacific SD70ACe sharing some track with a 3.0 UP SD50 and a 2.0 UP ES44AC; that's about as good as it gets, in 3-rail; plus, a few others to keep it company - a great grey bodied 2.0 UP AC4400CW, a 2.0 Western Pacific ACe and a 2.0 safety cabbed UP SD60M.

I've really grown to like the Union Pacific look!

Rick

Track and wheels are models too.  Two rail track is not perfect, but surely it is as reliable and attractive as HO or N.  Hobbies are all about personal choices - plenty of room for all.  Personally, I like being in a group of hobbyists that is no doubt under 20 - 17/64 scale, O gauge.  I do not need thousands of folks doing it exactly the way I do.

Ah 17/64. Makes those 1:43 autos feel right at home.