Does anyone know of a source for replacement can motors other than MTH or Lionel?
Or if Frank Timko’s business has been sold or continued in any way?
Thanks.
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You can find Mabuchi RS385 motors on the auction sites all day for small money. The problem with swapping motors has always been the gears for a specific engine. Either swapping the gears from another motor or machining them which I assume Frank had to do for his Pullmor replacements.
Pete
you need to contact Pat Norcross on the forum he can get you any can motor or any train motor at all. look up harmondyards on the ogrforum!
harmonyards | O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum (ogaugerr.com)
Alan
@Pat Marinari posted:Does anyone know of a source for replacement can motors other than MTH or Lionel?
Or if Frank Timko’s business has been sold or continued in any way?
Thanks.
Pat's @harmonyards your man, he can yank the worm and/or flywheel off your bad motor and stick it on a new matching motor.
Pat can also replace your old open frame AC motor with a nice hefty Pittman, here's one he did for my Yellowbelly upgrade. The red square is the snazzy motor upgrade with a real driveshaft that Pat did.
Attachments
Thanks John & Alan. I’ll contact Pat.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Pat can also replace your old open frame AC motor with a nice hefty Pittman, here's one he did for my Yellowbelly upgrade. The red square is the snazzy motor upgrade with a real driveshaft that Pat did.
GRJ, did that motor mount have any form of vibration isolation?
@KarlDL posted:GRJ, did that motor mount have any form of vibration isolation?
Not needed Karl, ….the mount is solid to the frame, and the flywheel is spun true after boring to verify hub centric. They’re smooth as silk even at high rpm, high speed…..recently, I converted a Commodore Vanderbilt, and ran it up to 100 SMPH ,…..it looked like a figure skater ….with 15 heavyweights in tow,…….☺️
Pat
@Norton posted:You can find Mabuchi RS385 motors on the auction sites all day for small money. The problem with swapping motors has always been the gears for a specific engine. Either swapping the gears from another motor or machining them which I assume Frank had to do for his Pullmor replacements.
Pete
Thanks for providing a specific name for the type of motor. I did a bit of searching, and as you stated there are a lot available, and most look very similar to each other. I saw prices ranging from a couple bucks all the way up to $47 (for 1 motor, not 10!, and it had nothing attached to it). Including shipping, most were in the range of $4 to $5 with nothing attached, and $15-30 with gears or other attachments.
My intended application is to convert a standard gauge passenger car to a trolley, and it's mostly just to see if I can do it.
How does one choose between the options? How to judge quality? Is there a guide somewhere to help?
I mentioned the RS385 because thats what Frank Timko used for the Pullmor replacements. You might be able to fit a larger motor in a standard gauge engine.
Weaver and Williams used Mabuchi RS550 and 555 motors, both are the same size but the 555 is better having 5 poles. They are found on the auction sites as well. Best look for those rated for 12-24 volts DC, same for the smaller motor.
Pete
@KarlDL posted:GRJ, did that motor mount have any form of vibration isolation?
As Pat says, not really needed. None of the Lionel or MTH steamers have vibration isolation, all just mount the motor on a chunk of steel plate bent to be the motor mount.
@Mallard4468 posted:Thanks for providing a specific name for the type of motor. I did a bit of searching, and as you stated there are a lot available, and most look very similar to each other.
Remember, the RS-385 is just a brushed motor size. Within that size there are a ton of variations of both max RPM and voltage.
I couldn't find just the sheet for the RS-385 series, here's a search on all the brushed motors, the RS-385's are scattered around in there.
@Mallard4468 posted:Thanks for providing a specific name for the type of motor. I did a bit of searching, and as you stated there are a lot available, and most look very similar to each other. I saw prices ranging from a couple bucks all the way up to $47 (for 1 motor, not 10!, and it had nothing attached to it). Including shipping, most were in the range of $4 to $5 with nothing attached, and $15-30 with gears or other attachments.
My intended application is to convert a standard gauge passenger car to a trolley, and it's mostly just to see if I can do it.
How does one choose between the options? How to judge quality? Is there a guide somewhere to help?
The other thing if you are looking for a DC motor there are dozens of others you can use, many better that the Mabuchis. Just look for 12-16 v DC. You now know what the price of the RS 385 is. No doubt the manufacturers get them for pennies. Its about the price, not about the performance.
Pete
The reason Karl was asking about isolators is his current project is a high geared Weaver that more than likely had the 10,000 RPM amp hog wiper motor ……..in his case, and some of the Williams too, they had rubber isolators because the motor has to spin to the moon just to get it to move. Even swapping in a Pittman doesn’t accomplish much, as you soon find out you’ve run out of motor before you’ve run out of gear,……in those cases, a new gear box in the 20:1 range is a better choice here.
Pat
@harmonyards posted:The reason Karl was asking about isolators is his current project is a high geared Weaver that more than likely had the 10,000 RPM amp hog wiper motor ……..in his case, and some of the Williams too, they had rubber isolators because the motor has to spin to the moon just to get it to move. Even swapping in a Pittman doesn’t accomplish much, as you soon find out you’ve run out of motor before you’ve run out of gear,……in those cases, a new gear box in the 20:1 range is a better choice here.
OH, the 44:1 gearbox, I did a couple of those. They topped out at around 35 scale MPH at 8,000 RPM, and it sounded like a 747 takeoff run! 
I happen to know someone that can replace that Weaver gearbox with a more reasonable gear ratio! 
The high-ratio gearbox is ok if you have a small layout with short straightaways. If you stick with one of these, attaching the motor to its mount through rubber grommets is a good idea. Two common problems are (1) an unbalanced flywheel, and (2) the loco is constructed of thin-wall brass, which amplifies the sound.
DynaXorb is a product used to line the inside of car trunks, etc., when you're installing a custom stereo. It's designed to eliminate unwanted vibrations. It's a soft rubber sheet with waffle-type grooves and adhesive on the back. Cutting a square of that and putting it inside the loco boiler above the flywheel does a LOT to quiet things down.
For the record, the Williams by Bachmann old-timer 4-6-0 is geared at 40:1 and I've never read any complaints about noise, even at 12,000 RPM. (No complaints about slow-speed performance, either!) The MTH Docksider is geared at 28:1 over very small driving wheels. Again, no complaints of MOTOR noise at 12,000 RPM, only the ringing of the "coined" driving wheel rims. Unbalanced flywheels and brass construction will get you every time. There's a reason they don't make tubas out of die-cast metal!
The Weaver/Samhongsa 42:1 gearbox (used on the Dreyfuss Hudson) is a relic from the pre-PWM motor drive days, when you needed high RPM to get smooth low-speed performance. To work with a Pittman motor, one needs a gearbox in the 15:1 to 25:1 range. And all of the complications that arise in swapping it out. Add the least little bit of shaft/flywheel wobble with the 42:1, and noise is not surprising. The Mabuchi RS-555 appears to run about the same RPM as a Pittman, so a gearbox change seems inevitable if one wants to improve motor performance. The maximum speed with the 42:1 gearbox and a Pittman is around 30 smph.
Pittmans (especially the larger 9000-series) are SLOOOOW-turning motors. Their advertised no-load speeds were somewhere between 6100 and 6800 RPM.
I did a lot of experimenting during the "pre-PWM motor drive days." With DC motors, there's a linear relationship between voltage and RPM/speed. What I found was that as installed, under layout conditions, that relationship ceased being linear below about 800 rpm. I could get motors with a 24-volt winding to lug down to perhaps 650 RPM before stalling. (Of course you need even more voltage on the top end to drive a 24-volt motor to its rated speed.)
A higher-RPM motor will often give you a wider speed range, calculated as a ratio of the max and min RPMs. This is probably why Forum member Bob Turner preferred Pittman's 8000-series motors to the 9000-series in an article he wrote a long time ago for a different O scale print magazine. Although the 8000's make less torque, they still make enough. Furthermore, gears multiply torque and depending on the application they can be geared down. Examples:
Pittman 9000-series: 800 to 6800 RPM observed. 6800/800 = 8.5 --> loco speed range 10 to 85 MPH
Pittman 8000-series: 800 to 9200 RPM observed. 9200/800 = 11.5 --> loco speed range 10 to 115 mph (or 5 to 58 mph if geared properly, with 2x the torque.) Some of us don't have layouts suitable for much running above 60 mph.
Another example: The 2008-vintage RailKing 0-6-0's. Their tiny RS-365 motor needs at least 1100 RPM to run consistently without stalling. But it will rev up to about 12,000 RPM, an 11:1 ratio between min and max. With a 36:1 gear ratio over 51" drivers, that yields an almost-perfect speed range of 4.7 to 50.9 scale mph! These are die-cast locos with a cast-in "gearbox." Again, 36:1 gearing and I've never read any complaints about noise. It's a brass thing that can be solved with careful attention to NVH.
When Samhongsa was putting the 42:1 gearbox in Williams locos, they were using the 3-pole Mabuchi RS-550 which was rated up to 30 volts. (The higher-voltage winding was probably necessary to keep current draw within acceptable limits.) A prewar type Z or contemporary Right-of-Way 400 watt transformer could put 24 volts on the rails, which would push this motor into the 12,000 RPM range, and the loco to its designed speed of 55-60 scale mph. Upgrading to the 5-pole RS-555 is a no-brainer, IF you can find one with the equivalent higher-voltage winding and 15000 RPM no-load speed.
This YouTube video shows an early Williams brass Hudson upgraded with Blunami. I don't know for sure that it has the 42:1 gearbox, but it runs smoothly and quietly over a wide speed range without help from tach-based speed control. (I think Blunami uses Back-EMF.) https://youtu.be/Z58N2jyz4BM?t=83
This thread describes Sid's upgrade of a Williams N&W 'J'. Despite advice to the contrary, he stuck with the 42:1 gearbox, tamed the NVH, and got stellar results (link to motor discussion on page 2): https://ogrforum.com/...9#152477233986461289
So I suppose you could say I still hold a bit of reverence for "relics!"
@Ted S posted:Pittmans (especially the larger 9000-series) are SLOOOOW-turning motors. Their advertised no-load speeds were somewhere between 6100 and 6800 RPM.
I did a lot of experimenting during the "pre-PWM motor drive days." With DC motors, there's a linear relationship between voltage and RPM/speed. What I found was that as installed, under layout conditions, that relationship ceased being linear below about 800 rpm. I could get motors with a 24-volt winding to lug down to perhaps 650 RPM before stalling. (Of course you need even more voltage on the top end to drive a 24-volt motor to its rated speed.)
A higher-RPM motor will often give you a wider speed range, calculated as a ratio of the max and min RPMs. This is probably why Forum member Bob Turner preferred Pittman's 8000-series motors to the 9000-series in an article he wrote a long time ago for a different O scale print magazine. Although the 8000's make less torque, they still make enough. Furthermore, gears multiply torque and depending on the application they can be geared down. Examples:
Pittman 9000-series: 800 to 6800 RPM observed. 6800/800 = 8.5 --> loco speed range 10 to 85 MPH
Pittman 8000-series: 800 to 9200 RPM observed. 9200/800 = 11.5 --> loco speed range 10 to 115 mph (or 5 to 58 mph if geared properly, with 2x the torque.) Some of us don't have layouts suitable for running much above 60 mph.
Another example: The 2008-vintage RailKing 0-6-0's. Their tiny RS-365 motor needs at least 1100 RPM to make useful torque. But it will rev up to about 12,000 RPM, an 11:1 ratio between min and max. With a 36:1 gear ratio over 51" drivers, that yields an almost-perfect speed range of 4.7 to 50.9 scale mph! These are die-cast locos with a cast-in "gearbox." Again, 36:1 gearing and I've never read any complaints about noise. It's a brass thing that can be solved with careful attention to NVH.
When Samhongsa was putting the 42:1 gearbox in Williams locos, they were using the 3-pole Mabuchi RS-550 which was rated up to 30 volts. (The higher-voltage winding was probably necessary to keep current draw within acceptable limits.) A prewar type Z or contemporary Right-of-Way 400 watt transformer could put 24 volts on the rails, which would push this motor into the 12,000 RPM range, and the loco to its designed speed of 55-60 scale mph. Upgrading to the 5-pole RS-555 is a no-brainer, IF you can find one with the equivalent higher-voltage winding and 15000 RPM no-load speed.
This YouTube video shows an early Williams brass Hudson upgraded with Blunami. I don't know for sure that it has the 42:1 gearbox, but it runs smoothly and quietly over a wide speed range without help from tach-based speed control. (I think Blunami uses Back-EMF.) https://youtu.be/Z58N2jyz4BM?t=83
This thread describes Sid's upgrade of a Williams N&W 'J'. Despite advice to the contrary, he stuck with the 42:1 gearbox, tamed the NVH, and got stellar results (link to motor discussion on page 2): https://ogrforum.com/...9#152477233986461289
So I suppose you could say I still hold a bit of reverence for "relics!"
It don’t matter how you slice it buddy, 42:1- 44:1 and a Pittman, is not a good marriage …..For use with modern cruise, Lionel, MTH, and ERR rely on 16-20:1 and a low amp drawing motor for optimum performance. With those gear ratios, you’re putting a motor such as a 12V Pittman right in the sweet spot for low rpm torque, and smoothness when coupled to modern cruise capabilities……..and still have plenty of power & rpm to make passenger train speeds if so desired……..I’ve gutted herds of Williams & Weavers and went 20:1 with a Pittman, …..there’s just no comparison…….When we’re discussing scale steam, a lot of these systems were designed around the Pittman’s power bands, ……which begin in the lower rpm levels…So it’s all in an efficient package……bottom line, the gear ratio, the motor, and the electronics package should all be matched, and efficient as possible, ….now you’ll have less amp draw, good power & smooth operation…..and the icing on the cake…..longevity…
Pat
