Restoration Techniques...

I guess it really depends on the condition of the original base paint.  If it is all chipped up under the repainted coat of paint, I would see no point in trying to save the original base paint. 

True...and I agree. What I'm hoping is to find a stripper that will remove the over-paint; then I can make a determination as to the condition of the original paint.

Mark in Oregon

Ain’t like a #10 is a million dollar piece worthy of a rescue, …..you’ll make yourself bananas trying to resurrect an antique lacquer paint job……go to bare metal, start from scratch….my .02 cents ….( BTW, given the current state of our economy my .02 cents are now 58 dollars …please remit )

Pat

That paint comes off pretty easily. Old aircraft stripper would have clean in a few minutes. The newer stuff will take longer but it should be clean in 30 minutes.

Pete

Mojave is WEAK in the best circumstance and stains readily. It stains with water. Permanently. Its a waste of time IMHO.... but it is your loco... do as you like!

@Rob English posted:

Mojave is WEAK in the best circumstance and stains readily. It stains with water. Permanently. Its a waste of time IMHO.... but it is your loco... do as you like!

The "Mohave" I mentioned was the original color of the 408E in the article; I think (judging by the eBay photos) that the #10 I'm getting was originally "Peacock".   Dunno if that's an easier color to "rescue"...

Mark in Oregon

Mark when I have done my tinplate restoration or fantasy paint scheme I use TSP, Trisodium Phosphate, to strip the paint off. Very easy to use and works fast and effectively. I just mix a few tablespoons in hot water in a plastic bin. Let it sit for 15 minutes or so, a light scrubbing with a toothbrush or scotch bright pad will bring you to bare metal.

Thanks Rich, but I'm hoping to only strip the "user applied" paint, leaving the original paint intact.

Maybe TSP for 5 minutes...?

Mark in Oregon

@harmonyards posted:

( BTW, given the current state of our economy my .02 cents are now 58 dollars …please remit )

Pat

ROTFLMAO!!

@Strummer posted:

The "Mohave" I mentioned was the original color of the 408E in the article; I think (judging by the eBay photos) that the #10 I'm getting was originally "Peacock".   Dunno if that's an easier color to "rescue"...

Mark in Oregon

OOPS well Peacock is essentially similar in nature. stains easily especially when the paint is oxidized (dull). comes off easily.

Thanks Rob; I really appreciate your participation on stuff I've been posting recently. Since I don't know anything about SG, you and others chiming in are a big help. 🙂

Guess all "we" can do is wait for the engine to arrive and take it from there...

Mark in Oregon

Mark... you are very welcome.

Okay, you'll be sorry you said that! 😄

Another question, this one regarding freight car size. The TCA book says the 112 gondola is part of the "Early Small Series" and is either 7" or 9 1/2" long.

Here is a picture of the 112 I got last week:

... it's clearly stamped "112". But here is a picture of its length:

...you can see it's 11 1/4".

So do I have an earlier "12" that's probably been refinished and stamped a later number?

Mark in Oregon

PS: still hoping to find some trucks for this...(hint,hint...). 😁

In a quick nutshell, look here for how I "restore" prewar Standard gauge: Memorial Diner in Honor of my Brother (warrenvillerailroad.com)

Just an example.

The paint Estes & Hennings sold in aerosol form was lacquer. The paint Hennings sells now is an alkyd enamel. Lionel did not bake their train cars etc.,  but ran them thru a dip paint trough on a moving hangar. The paint was enamel.  If an item is over sprayed w/ lacquer, it will bubble up the original enamel paint.  TSP is the home method to remove paint. We use aluminum oxide in a sand blasting cabinet for total restoration.   Harry 

The #10 arrived today, so rest assured I'll be asking a lot of questions.

First impression: this is the first "Super Motor" I've ever seen; it's quite different from the power unit in the #33. The wheels are in really good condition; on the non-geared side have raised lettering: "The Lionel Corporation New York." I guess these are the original wheels(?) After the usual cleaning and lube, it seems to run well, but since I don't know what these are supposed to be like, I'm merely guessing.

The body, although intact and straight, is going to need a complete stripping, including the original "Peacock" paint. How is the safest way to straighten (then re-flatten) all those little tabs?Back when I was into later Post War stuff, I had to take apart a 45N; in doing so, most of those tabs broke. How to avoid that happening this time?

One of the couplers is really bent and is missing a piece, so it'll have to be replaced: how does one go about doing that, since it's kind of riveted in place...

Place stand by for more of the same; thank you.

Mark in Oregon

To save the tabs just lift each a bit at a time. Don’t attempt to move it the full 90 degrees if possible. The metal has some flex so you pull it at an angle to release the tabs. Reassemble the same way and don’t try bending back to the original position. The less angle they are bent the more likely they will not break off.

Pete

Thank you Pete... 🙂

Mark in Oregon

Another question: how do you go about accessing the commutator brushes on one of these "Super Motors"?

Online research only shows how easy it is when the wheels are pulled and the frame is disassembled. I don't want to have to go to that extreme; there must be a way... 🤔

Mark in Oregon

PS: I was able to remove one of the brass side panels; so far so good. Funny: I've never had much luck with "Brasso", but it worked great on this...🙂

One trick with those tabs is to give them a SLIGHT twist when replacing the body instead of rebending them flat. Less chance of breakage that way.

Will do, thanks; any suggestions regarding those brushes? 🙂

Mark in Oregon

Whether Mojave, Peacock or any other color is more durable just doesn't matter.  Authentic replacement spray cans are readily available.  Go the trainenamels.com and you will see the full list of Lionel colors.  I have about 20 spray cans of their different colors. 

I always strip to bare metal.   My preferred paint remover is white vinegar.  I use super market aluminum baking tins and totally immerse the piece that I am stripping.  At $2.50-3.00 per gallon, I don't even think about the cost.  It is reusable.

The vinegar may leave a light rust residue, but that comes right off with vigorous brushing.

I don't use a primer.  You can always add another coat to the part that isn't fully covered.  I bake it for an hour in our kitchen oven at about 175.  If I wait four to five hours before baking, it won't be noticeable in the kitchen.  Even my wife who is extremely fussy about that kind of odor doesn't notice it.  The paint doesn't care if you wait before baking.

I've done several restoration projects this way.  It really does work.

Thank you for your input; the only "piece" I have to strip is the entire body, so I'll using a large bucket and whatever I end up using, either TSP or, as you suggested, white vinegar. That sounds like a good idea; we use that a lot around the house for cleaning...and it goes great with sliced cucumber! 😁

Mark in (wet and windy) Oregon

Mark here are some pics of a recent set I removed the paint using TSP. The paint practically fell off the metal.

@Rich Wiemann posted:

Mark here are some pics of a recent set I removed the paint using TSP. The paint practically fell off the metal.

Wow. Approximately how long did you have to "soak" these pieces? Thanks for your help. 👍

Mark in Oregon

Mark a few tablespoons of TSP in a pail with a few teapots of hot water, then let it soak 20 minutes. A little scrubbing with a toothbrush into the crevices, a quick rinse off with the hose and I was done.

@Rich Wiemann posted:

Mark a few tablespoons of TSP in a pail with a few teapots of hot water, then let it soak 20 minutes. A little scrubbing with a toothbrush into the crevices, a quick rinse off with the hose and I was done.

Only 20 minutes! Wow.

I use TIDE (powdered) in hot water and it takes overnight,

I'll try TSP next time

@Lionelski posted:

Only 20 minutes! Wow.

... that's what I was gonna say! 😲 🙂

Mark in Oregon

After 2 hours in TSP and hot water:

Am very pleased; thanks for the suggestion(s)! 👍

Mark in (drier today) Oregon

Mark that looks great 👍 glad it worked for you!

I got home a short time ago and seeing this reminds me that I left a Lionel truck 1915-16 vintage soaking in vinegar last night.  I'll make a quick trip to the basement now and see what happened.

Here's a summary of the results of my vinegar bath.  First two photos showing the intiial condition - npot the same truck, but one in the same original convition.

Now the vinegar soaked truck after toothbrush scrubbing.

Then some vigorous scrubbing of parts with this steel brush.

Here is a wheel after scrubbing with that tool

Here is a wheel after scrubbing with that tool

Here is a wheel after scrubbing with that tool

This light rust sometimes appears from the vinegar.  It whisks right off with  Dremel woe brush.

\My vinegar bucket wasn't quite deep enough and part of the wheel stuck out.

It's not yet finished, but now the remaining work is reasonable for the Dremel tool.  Another Dremel accessory that I fund handy for deep rust spot on a wheel is the sandpaper flapper.

Note that this is early standard gauged which is much more rugged than O gauge or some later sG.  For later trucks, I just pop the wheels out so I can work on wheels, axles and frames separately.  The problem with early SG is that the axle ends are swaged and you I don't see any easy way to take the wheels out of the frames.

After reading the comments about TSP, I'm inclined to do a test comparing it with the vinegar.  I have these two old O gauge cars from about 1920 in my restoration queue.  I'll do one with vinegar and one with TSP or a TSP substitute and compare the results - I hope sometime this week.

It appears that TSP cannot be legally sold  now in MA because of the problem of phosphorous pollution of our waterways.  Has anyone tried the similar products that are free of phosphorous ?

I cannot help you with your question; I can say it looks like vinegar works very well. I will be trying it on a pair of trucks off a #112 gondola and will let you know how that goes. My thought is: if TSP has been "outlawed" in MA, can OR be far behind? Might as well begin looking for alternatives.

Good stuff, this...I appreciate the participation. 👍

Mark in Oregon

So do I have an earlier "12" that's probably been refinished and stamped a later number?

Yes...I would think so.

@Strummer posted:

Thank you for your input; the only "piece" I have to strip is the entire body, so I'll using a large bucket and whatever I end up using, either TSP or, as you suggested, white vinegar. That sounds like a good idea; we use that a lot around the house for cleaning...and it goes great with sliced cucumber! 😁

Mark in (wet and windy) Oregon

I have used ZEP citrus degreaser for a while now. Takes longer, filter and reuse, better the TSP for the environment (i think it is anyway) and its VERY gentle on the piece.

@Strummer posted:

Thank you for your input; the only "piece" I have to strip is the entire body, so I'll using a large bucket ...

Mark in (wet and windy) Oregon

So Mark, I found a widow box made from plastic thats great for stripping at Menards. 8"x 8"x18" even has lil feet on it!

Or a drywall mud tray which is smaller.

Thanks guys; those are both good suggestions.

I first tried a 2 1/2 gallon pail, but the body was slightly too long to be completely submerged; I then transferred to a "5-er", which was big enough for the #10 body to sit level in the bucket, so no additional water was needed. 🙂

I'm still wondering about those motor brushes, by the way...🤔 How do you get to those without having to disassemble the entire chassis?

Mark in Oregon