Restoration Techniques...

You don't have to disassemble the whole chassis, but you do have to pull the wheels from one side to unscrew and pull out the brush holder.  Having done that, it is just four screws to take the side frame off and you can do a thorough inside cleaning.

To take the wheels off, you need something that will hold the bottom side  of the frame while you use a big hammer and a nail set to drive the axle out of the wheel on the top - slowly, carefully,  Be patient and it will come out.

I don't know what advice to give on resetting the wheels other than having an old vice like mine.  IT's an 80 year old vice (from y father's workshop) that has 2.5" between the jaws and is well squared.   Since the axles normally end at the wheel surface, it's easy to get the gauge right.  Don't know what modern tools will do the job.

ML

Yikes...so the only way to access the brushes means removing the wheels!?! 😲 🤨

If that's the case, I think I will leave it be for now; it's running, and I don't want to risk mucking it up. That's pretty disappointing... 😐

Mark in Oregon

@mlaughlinnyc posted:

You don't have to disassemble the whole chassis, but you do have to pull the wheels from one side to unscrew and pull out the brush holder.  Having done that,

Umm, on the drum (barrel) commutator super-motor there is a single screw on the motor side plate about 3/8" from the bottom in the middle of the side plate between the wheels. Remove that screw and pull the brush holder plate straight out. Hopefully there is enough wire on them to get it out, otherwise you'll have to loosen the wire from the wafer with manual reverse switch. There is a brush spring detent on each brush tube assemble to release tension when reinstalling the holder.

See here: http://themotordoctor.com/lionel_super_motor.htm

This is the screw you're referring to, I bet:

I will look into this tomorrow. In the meantime, thanks again, Rob!  👍

Mark in Oregon

Yup, thats the one!

A few more questions:

After I pull the brush plate out and replace the brushes, how does one get everything back in its proper place, since those brushes are under tension from their springs? How do you keep them "separated" enough from each other to then slide back onto the commutator? Stupid question I know, but still...

I'm working on a couple of #112 gondolas; after stripping and cleaning, what level of sheen should the truck frames have? I know it's probably a matter of preference, but I'm talking about the factory-applied finish. Gloss? Satin? Flat?  (If it matters, and according to the TCA book I have, these are "100 series type V" trucks for "later" series cars, with the blackened painted(?) side frames...)

As always, thank you!

Mark in Oregon

Here is a technique that I have used successfully for holding brushes while assembling certain motto types.   Make a two inch long piece if cardstock about the width of the spacing of the brushes.  Make a hole in the center for the shaft of the armature.  US the cardstock to compress the brushes into the holders and wrap it around the plate, holding in place with Scotch tape.

Place that assembly over the armature shaft and start the brush plate screws just enough to hold. Then tear out the cardstock, which will leave the brushes in contact with the armature.  Then tighten the screws.

@mlaughlinnyc posted:

Here is a technique that I have used successfully for holding brushes while assembling certain motto types.   Make a two inch long piece if cardstock about the width of the spacing of the brushes.  Make a hole in the center for the shaft of the armature.  US the cardstock to compress the brushes into the holders and wrap it around the plate, holding in place with Scotch tape.

Place that assembly over the armature shaft and start the brush plate screws just enough to hold. Then tear out the cardstock, which will leave the brushes in contact with the armature.  Then tighten the screws.

Thanks.

I'm trying to visualize what you describe and it sounds like the chassis has been taken apart (?)... something I'm hoping to avoid having to do...

Please correct me if I'm getting it wrong.  🙂

Mark in Oregon

I've got several motors of the right type on my workbench.  sometime in the next 24 hours, I'll play with a brush plate and take a few photos of the technique.

@mlaughlinnyc posted:

I've got several motors of the right type on my workbench.  sometime in the next 24 hours, I'll play with a brush plate and take a few photos of the technique.

That would be awesome, thank you. 🙂

Mark in Oregon

Work continues on this #10 project.

before:

...and so far:

...the lighting makes it look "bluer" than it really is.

Since I'm not a body repair guy, and there are still a few minor anomalies, I guess it's better if I call this a "rescue", as opposed to a "restoration"...

Mark in Oregon

I call them character! Looks great, what kind of paint are you using? Keep the pics coming.  

@Rich Wiemann posted:

I call them character! Looks great, what kind of paint are you using? Keep the pics coming.  

Thanks Rich.

I used Rust-Oleum "Lagoon"; it was the closest to the Lionel "Peacock" I could find. Not exact, but close enough... for me, anyway. 😊

Just need to address those motor brushes, attach the headlights and re-assemble.

One of the things that struck me is what heavy gauge this stuff was made from. It's real metal! 😁 Lots of fun to work on...

Mark in Oregon

Headlights installed and working:

...even this turned out to be an adventure; the slot/holes for the casting and the fiber contact piece was not large enough for both items to fit, so I had to do a little CAREFUL filing on the body to enlarge those openings.

Managed to do that without damaging the body and/or the paint, so we're good to go.

Mark in Oregon

Here is a sequence of photos showing how I deal with the springs when mounting the brush plate.

Cut a piece of card stock as shown long enough to wrap around the plate.  Make a hole in the middle to fit the armature shaft. (I had to add a piece to the one shown.

Put the brushes in the holder using the cardstock to hold them against the springs.  Tape the cardstock around the brush holder, aligning the hole with the hole in the plate.

Place the brush holder in position   While holding the assembly remove the cardstock - use scissors to cut through one side and tear it from the other.

Replace the screws and you're ready to go.

For use w/ the open-faced brush holders, I have a simple fix.  Take a normal paper clip, bend out 1 leg straight, then bend the straight end into a "U" shape.  Now you can install the brush holder w/o the brushes attached, but with the springs in place. When re-mounted, use the paper clip tool to 'lift' the spring arm, and insert your brush in the holder, then just slide the clip tool out.  The Old Man   

P.S.  I will demonstrate on our next video podcast that the boys do every couple of weeks.   

The Train Shop Weekly - youtube

On a lot of the early motors where you can remove the armature w/o gear interference,   load the brush holder w/ the brushes, and place the armature face up against the brush holder. Now you can carefully  place back into the motor cavity.  Harry 

What Harry suggests might be a better solution than mine for the locomotive I used for my demonstration.  That was a 1664 that has widely spaced drivers.  It would not work with a 1666.

On some motors, I've used the pull back the spring method using tweezers.  It was one of the F-3 or NW-2 motors that caused me to use the cardstock method.

What is a podcast and how do I get to it and how will I know about it ?

I believe Harry is referring to their YouTube channel. They have a series called The Train Shop Weekly, in which they talk about new products into the shop, demo products, run trains and Harry/Harry III showcases various hands on techniques, such as rebuilding E-Units, changing prewar wheels, etc.  

I appreciate everyone's input, I really do.

On the engine in question (a Standard Gauge #10) the armature is of a different type than the one shown in the above photos. I'm hoping someone reading this will know what I mean and can clarify...

In the meantime, here it is, looking bluer than ever (🤔) in the display case:

Still need to find a replacement coupler for one end, but as of now, everything seems to be working.

It's been a very interesting project. 🙂

Mark in Oregon

Mark sounds like you have an older style “Barrel” commutator.

Here is a link that discusses the importance of the phenolic washer, which holds the three commutator segments together, and how to epoxy them if its broken.  It sits above the solder ball on the left side of the pic, on top of the horizontal lip of the segments.

You should inspect this to make sure you aren’t going to have a blown commutator.
https://ogrforum.com/...matures-commentators

Here is a pic of an engine I had picked up that suffered from a broken ring.

Fortunately all three segments were still in the motor. I was able to clean this up, and used a ring of heat shrink tubing in place of the ring. I also placed a drop of super glue on the back of each segment to the shaft. So far so good with its performance. Unfortunately I hadn’t taken any pics of the finished product  

In the ‘before’ photo the grates (or whatever) on the side were a different color than the body. Was that a non-original mod?

@texgeekboy posted:

In the ‘before’ photo the grates (or whatever) on the side were a different color than the body. Was that a non-original mod?

Those "vents" were, as far as I can tell, always the same color as the rest of the body; but I'm new to Standard Gauge, so don't take my word for it.

Hopefully, someone who knows about SG will be able to give you a definitive answer...

Rich

Thanks for your response; yep, that's the kind I was referring to. 🙂

Fortunately, my armature looks to be in good condition; I just would like to know the best way to change the brushes without having to pull the wheels and disassemble the entire thing.

Mark in Oregon

My observation of many locomotives says to me that the way Lionel had number plates or other parts a different color from the body was by use of inserts.  Using two colors on the same part would have complicated the production process.

@mlaughlinnyc,

Yep, makes sense.  I couldn't tell if the vents were part of the body, or had been screwed on.

@mlaughlinnyc posted:

What is a podcast and how do I get to it and how will I know about it ?

It is a video YouTube channel "The Train Shop Weekly" that the boys do here. Right now because of time schedules they are doing every couple weeks. You can see all the past episodes here:

The Train Shop Weekly - Youtube

Earlier in this thread it was suggested to use white vinegar for cleaning old, rusty parts; this didn't surprise me, as we use it for general cleaning around the house.

Anyway, a few days ago I dropped some wheels, axles and truck frames into a small container of it, then promptly spaced it out until this morning. Here are the results, after a simple wiping down of the surfaces and before any wire brushing:

It totally blew me away how well it worked. Thanks to all who suggested it!

Mark in Oregon

Dilute Molasses works too. Might take a few weeks though.

Pete

Bob Phillips, the host of TM Books & Video's You Can Do It series, has suggested cotton swabs and rubbing alcohol to de-gunk motors in every postwar engine. I'm wanting to buy said equipment from the stores in my area (Bed, Bath, & Beyond, Home Depot, etc. (plus online shopping)).

...I might add here the vinegar did an equally terrific job on the truck frames. Here is a pic of what began as (2) very funky and rusty pieces:

I suppose giving them a light coating of some kind of wax or oil might keep them from rusting again(?) After all, the Oregon Coast is in what is considered a "temperate rain forest" type of climate...

Mark in Oregon

Re-painted the #10 in a color which I think (hope!) is closer to Lionel's "Peacock".

The first color I tried was too blue:

Wattaya  think?

Mark in Oregon

@Strummer posted:

Re-painted the #10 in a color which I think (hope!) is closer to Lionel's "Peacock".

The first color I tried was too blue:

Wattaya  think?

Mark in Oregon

Mark it’s hard to tell from the pictures but the peacock certainly is closer than the blue. Both colors look great. What were the names of the colors you used?

Rich

Thanks. In natural light, the "new" color looks pretty good.

Blue is "Lagoon" by Rust O Leum; the greener color is "Island Girl", made by a company in Fresno, California called "Color Shot". I found it at Michaels...

Mark in Oregon

Perception of any color is dependent on the lighting in which the object is shown, thus the variations under different lighting conditions. It should further be noted that the patina of an original Peacock loco would have faded somewhat over the decades due to exposure to UV light and other factors that would favor oxidation.

@Tinplate Art posted:

Perception of any color is dependent on the lighting in which the object is shown, thus the variations under different lighting conditions. It should further be noted that the patina of an original Peacock loco would have faded somewhat over the decades due to exposure to UV light and other factors that would favor oxidation.

Very true. Although this newer color is better (in that it's less blue and more green), it still doesn't match the color sample from the TCA book.

Perhaps I should have gone with a tan finish...🤪 🙂

At least I got through it, and it runs well! 😁

Mark in Oregon

The name of this thread could be "The many shades of peacock", but I do want to keep it with "Restoration".  The photos embedded below are peacock shades from five sources.  All were taken today with my iPad and color checked against the originals.

The baseline for this is the 352E set that was given to my my around 1930. It was only 30 years old when I first saw it, not time for the color to have changed much.  It has always looked green to me.

Here is my set.

Peacock is somewhere between light blue and medium green.  Here is the 10E labeled peacock on page 69 of the 1976 TCA book.  It's sort of blue, distorted by the low resolution printing.

Here is one from Greenbug's new Standard gauge book.

I'd label it blue. 

Now Doyle's book.  Looks light green with a blueish tint.

Then there is the problem of lighting.  My photos are usually with incandescent.  Here's one of the cars under an LED lamp.

Looks like a greater blue tint.

Now back to my train which I'm preparing to sell as we get ready to move to a senior living community.  The sides and ends are almost C-7 but the roofs don't look good, and I want to repaint them to match the sides.  I have found Trainenamels to do a very good job of reproducing original colors. 

Their 10-peacock looks green, but it's not the same as my green.

As may be observed in the animal kingdom, one should not put two male birds together, especially peacocks.  So I hope my train will be bought by someone who doesn't have a clashing peacock    

Original Lionel Peacock always looked green to me under incandescent lighting. I once owned two excellent original Peacock #10 locos and they looked more green than blue.

If you try to strip off the new paint it could wind up looking like this (photo #1 & #2) any way. So why not strip it down to bare metal and repaint. It will look brand new. I strip everything down, prime with an automotive etching primer, spray paint the finish coat and bake 30 minutes at 200 degrees.

They look great and wear well.

PS the diner was made from a Lionel #610 junk car.

Well...

I thought this thread was dead, but I guess not; the observations regarding "Peacock" make a lot of sense to me, and I thank you all for your input.

I just picked up another #10; this one looks to be in great condition cosmetically, but the motor has no wiring and (2) of the wheels will need to be replaced. Here it is:

It's also missing this handrail:

...anyone have a spare, or can suggest a place that might have this? Hennings, maybe?

I guess it's time to get one of those "faucet pullers" and see if I can completely destroy this model...2 of the wheels had been replaced at some point in time, so that's good.

The big Greenberg book doesn't list a #10 in green, so I guess this is an older repaint...(?)

The fun continues.

Mark in Oregon